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About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth

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  • paulobaptista_v
    Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K. I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are closer to Daniel s. I was appalled to see
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 21, 2012
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      Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.

      I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are closer to Daniel's.
      I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as a good book, when her statements on this video

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related
      (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)

      confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
      http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm

      I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict lies.

      For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way, Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old Lady.

      I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of them had to say in 2006:

      http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mom_2006.html

      In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest. Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth" in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".

      She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept" and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against Theosophy and its teachings."

      "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the last several years — that is her own business."

      Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When did Emma leave the TS?

      About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles written by Carrithers:

      http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf

      http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf

      and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat

      http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298

      which are of some interest, concerning this subject.

      When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975 about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss' books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.

      In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.

      It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they are now.
      There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally, we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy, and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.

      I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.

      Blavatsky's words were:
      "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer — has taken place. "

      And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.

      PB
    • MKR
      Excellent. The concepts of Karma and Reincarnation are the two pillars of every Eastern Religion and now the West is aware of them. It may be decades before we
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 21, 2012
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        Excellent.

        The concepts of Karma and Reincarnation are the two pillars of every
        Eastern Religion and now the West is aware of them.

        It may be decades before we will know for sure what the end of century
        outpouring was and who was the light bearer.

        The information that came thru HPB is still being digested by the world and
        I am yet to see another comprehensive presentation of the topics she did.

        MKR

        On Sat, Jan 21, 2012 at 2:35 PM, paulobaptista_v
        <paulobaptista_v@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
        >
        > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
        > closer to Daniel's.
        > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
        > as a good book, when her statements on this video
        >
        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related
        > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
        >
        > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
        > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
        >
        > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
        > depict lies.
        >
        > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
        > her teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
        > way, Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely
        > helpful if you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against
        > the Old Lady.
        >
        > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
        > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.orgthere are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
        > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
        > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
        > them had to say in 2006:
        >
        >
        > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mom_2006.html
        >
        > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
        > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
        > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
        > Demarest. Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the
        > "torch-bearer of truth" in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy"
        > and in the previous page I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art
        > Magic".
        >
        > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
        > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
        > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
        > "Adept" and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
        > against Theosophy and its teachings."
        >
        > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
        > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
        > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
        > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
        > the last several years — that is her own business."
        >
        > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
        > When did Emma leave the TS?
        >
        > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
        > written by Carrithers:
        >
        > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
        >
        > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
        >
        > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
        >
        > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
        >
        > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
        >
        > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
        > popularization of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through
        > the hands of men of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life"
        > released in 1975 about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof.
        > Ian Stevenson about reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his
        > work gave strong support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even
        > add Brian Weiss' books about past lives, the first being published in 1988.
        > Buddhist teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
        >
        > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
        > translation of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert
        > Zoller and Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek
        > or/and Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
        >
        > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
        > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
        > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
        > in the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
        > they are now.
        > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
        > TS had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
        > literally, we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
        > strategy, and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting
        > from the visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we
        > could discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
        >
        > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
        > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
        > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
        >
        > Blavatsky's words were:
        > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
        > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
        > — has taken place. "
        >
        > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
        > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
        >
        > PB
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • M. Sufilight
        Dear friends My views are: Thank you Paulo for a very interesting post. And I certainly agree on some of your comments. In the very interesting paper
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 21, 2012
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          Dear friends

          My views are:

          Thank you Paulo for a very interesting post.
          And I certainly agree on some of your comments.

          In the very interesting paper (http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf ) I found some very truthful words - but also something that I felt a need to respond to...

          The following can be found in the above link:
          "If we think we have difficulties upholding the Dzyan Dharma among men, consider the difficulties of the Mahatmas, presented by the forces arrayed against them! The enemy knows that if "The Guardian Wall" can be breached, the very Destiny of humankind on this globe will be set back a billion years! And the votaries of the Dark Gods are closer to their goal than they have been at any time during the last 500 years!"
          http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf

          Let me tell you...that this is a wild view seen from my perspective and knowledge.
          There will be no set-back of that kind. Be assured about this.
          The Law of Karma - which some of us claim to know about will operate as always. No such wild sudden set-back can occur. This is a logical conclusion when one know about the Law of Karma in this Earth-evolution.
          But that is just me and my words.

          On top of that I find the article to have a tendency to forget - why the Masters and Blavatsky sought to create - an Absolutely Non-Sectarian Theosophical Society - and not a sectarian one based on a self-elected group's claimed knowledge of something they call Theosophy

          A Torch-bearer arriving - would not doubt avoid trampling more or less on the non-sectarian idea of the Original Programe of
          the Absolutely Non-Sectarian Theosophical Society as it was given in 1875-1891 (with contrast to dogmatism, Churches, spiritualism and sects - according to BCW. Vol. VIII, p. 145) and a few years more - until perhaps year 1908 or 1910 - when the Society clearly failed in being non-sectarian. And it has, as I see it, clearly struggled, to be ABSOLUTELY non-Sectarian since those fatal years. (The TS Adyar shrines - with one New Age sect among them. And - The TS Adyar website with some persons apparently being - more - Prominent than others --- are clear factual deviations from an ABSOLUTELY Non-Sectarian line of thought.)
          And the various Theosophical Off-shoot groups seem not to have achieved better - except - perhaps a few small groups. - You may tell me I am wrong - but then I will have to ask you to forward the Consitution and Rules for the organisation in mention - and - tell me why it is not officially available on the oranisation(s) website or websites - which it aught to be - at least in the name of ALTRUISM. This is how I see it all.

          Therefore I ask:
          Where are the latest the Constitution and Rules for
          1) The Blavatsky Foundation
          2) ULT LODGE
          3) Pasadena Theosophists
          4) Theosophical Society Adyar
          5) Lucis Trust (I have mailed the headquarters - they responded at first - but have not responded since my last email for some weeks now. Perhaps they suddenly got busy? - They claim they are non-sectarian on their website and tell me that they give primary emphasis on Alice A. Bailey's books - and other words).
          6) Claire Prophets Church
          7) Krishnamurti Foundation and J. Krishnamurti's Schools. (He said in 1980 or so that he did not like how - his - schools operated.)
          8) others?

          Are any of them online on their websites clearly presented in the name of Altruism?
          I think not. And we ask why not - in the name of Altruism ?

          All the above are however just my views. Maybe I have overlooked something.
          I never-the-less have the hope that some of you find my words useful and can see the vital importance of keeping the Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisational Object of Altruism intact and alive --- call this aim a Torch if you like. But, Altruism I care about primarily as far as I am able to do so.

          __________

          Here is another interesting paper from The Blavatsky Foundation I came across
          SAI BABA BESTS THE PARAPSYCHOLOGISTS by Walter A. Carrithers, Jr.
          http://blavatskyfoundation.org/saibabaabr.pdf

          My views are:
          In the last hundred years Sathya Sai Baba can wthout doubt be said to have been - either - the greatest Occultist (with regard to Extra Sensory Perception) on the planet or the greatest con-man.
          The first time Sai Baba officially said he was the Avatar of the Age was in 1968. He also said it earlier more unofficially according to some of his early followers.
          I can only support the view that he was able to materialise objects and definitely that he possessed abilities on Mind-Reading.
          The voluminous number of case of examples on Extra Sensory Perception emanating from this character cannot not just like that be put in a trashcan without - a careful and non-superficial objective study.
          I simply have too many examples to choose from - and - also from acquaintances here in little Denmark - if the latter are taken alone - so to make me reject the whole affair as a mere con and cheat - with regard to

          Extra Sensory Perception emanating from this claimed Avatar. (A short example: I have meet a woman here in Denmark who meet Sai Baba for private interviews a few times. She told me that one time outside away from the crowds - in the hot summer in 40 degrees celcius or so - he materialised ice-cubes to her and gave them immediately into her open hand. The ice-cubes where freezing cold - just as if taken from a freezer. - And there are more stories like that from other persons here in Denmark. Some of them quite ordinary and sane persons.) Sai Baba is on record saying that he did not allow Parapsychologists to make scientific studies of him for spiritual reasons - his ethics did not operate like that. Erlendur Haraldsson book on Sai Baba is named by many as the best research on Sai Baba - although it has some faults in it as well, proven by later researchers. (I do however know that he once had a so-called private interview with a group of parapsychologists. In this interview - he was said to have materialised an object to the most doubting among the visitors. This man really got his world turned around. Smile. But this I only have as second-hand info. --- Another time I was at a local meeting here in Denmark - held by the Christians - they had been down to Sai Baba - with the aim of finding out his faults - not his posiotive sides, mind you. - The three youngster held a fine academic lecture with slides about their trip. They rejected him as a new revalation. But they admitted
          something strange - when they saw him in the morning at the so-called Darshan - where he walked about among the crowd - there emanated a very strange silence from him - so strong that one could almost touch it in the air. - I had my private smile when I heard that from the materialistic oriented Christians - who were quite baffled about it. ----- I myself have meet Sai Baba on astral-travel or one looking like him - when I was a young kid - and before I ever had heard about him. But again these are only my words.) This does not however on my part imply, that I that I think there could not have been - fake - indcidents at least from time to time.
          Whether he was an Avatar - will for me remain open - until I actually know, just like with anyone else. (But I do not consider him to be an Avatar today. But rather like Diana Baskin's former Husband a stock-broker or similar at Wall-Street (called Radhaka - 1000-headed monster by a teasing Sai Baba) said it: "He is an Alien!" - Smile. - Diana Baskin was daughter or step-daughter of Rajagopal Desikacharya - the close friend of J. Krishnamurti.) And there will always be a little doubt among anyone on this. And not to talk about non-objective prejudice and in the opposite camp biased fanatical stances in favour of his activities - despite many accusation about foul play and cheating etc. etc. No real Avatar escapes opposition - and we admit that when being honest in our hearts. But who was that little man? - (As an acquaintance of mine said: Be friendly and give that man a haircut! Smile.) Here is one of many videos on Sai Baba: Sai Baba Interview 1978 (Part 2) - 4-5 small videos in all --- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0aKzfC9uYc&feature=related (As will be seen in part 3 - he differs in views about when Krishna was born compared to Blavatsky as she is read in general.) ---- There are of course also all the accusation videos - many of them not quite objective - although some are seeking an objecitve stance - which I think one aught to not just dismiss without consideration - while being emotionally calm and seeking an honest open.minded and objective stance.

          What has been the general view about Sai Baba in the Theosophical Society and other theosophical groups (let us leave Share International out of this question)?
          Not that he necessarily is a torch-bearer. But what has the objective views in general been - also before year 2000 before al the accusations of cheat etc. etc. reach the public?


          Let us promote genuine altruism. And remove ignorance.

          Alle the above are of course just my views and questions.
          I am open to suggestions. But let us seek to be objective and emotionally calm.


          M. Sufilight


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: paulobaptista_v
          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 9:35 PM
          Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth



          Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.

          I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are closer to Daniel's.
          I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as a good book, when her statements on this video

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related
          (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)

          confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
          http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm

          I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict lies.

          For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way, Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old Lady.

          I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of them had to say in 2006:

          http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mom_2006.html

          In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest. Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth" in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".

          She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept" and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against Theosophy and its teachings."

          "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave much of the information contained in the book]- and saying this, I say far less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the last several years - that is her own business."

          Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When did Emma leave the TS?

          About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles written by Carrithers:

          http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf

          http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf

          and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat

          http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298

          which are of some interest, concerning this subject.

          When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975 about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss' books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.

          In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.

          It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they are now.
          There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally, we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy, and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.

          I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.

          Blavatsky's words were:
          "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place. "

          And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.

          PB





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeremy Condick
          (http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf ) “THE NEW TORCH-BEARER OF TRUTH”---WHY HIS DELAY? We were given an exposition of the Adepts as working in a
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 22, 2012
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            (http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf )
            �THE NEW TORCH-BEARER OF TRUTH�---WHY HIS DELAY?

            "We were given an exposition of the Adepts as working in a systematized hierarchy; the proclamation of Krishnamurti as the intended vehicle of a high Adept known as the World Teacher, despite Madame Blavatsky�s express statement that the Masters of the Wisdom would not send another emissary to Europe or America until 1975."


            "and the emergence of a vast literature through the hand of Mrs. Alice A. Bailey purporting to emanate from a Tibetan Master of Wisdom, which again flies in the teeth of the Blavatsky pronouncement about no further messenger until 1975.�


            "to a proposal �the members will discuss whether the organization should branch out into social work and also join non governmental bodies in the U.N.�


            "Finally, Mr Redfern, going even beyond de Purucker, clearly foresaw a prospect that �around 1975... the Adept Brotherhood� might �find the Theosophical Movement or Society� un-serviceable �as an instrument for further dissemination� and �have to by-pass it and start afresh...�


            "If we think we have difficulties upholding the Dzyan Dharma among men, consider the difficulties of the Mahatmas, presented by the forces arrayed against them! The enemy knows that if �The Guardian Wall� can be breached, the very Destiny of humankind on this globe will be set back a billion years! And the votaries of the Dark Gods are closer to their goal than they have been at any time during the last 500 years!"


            "We have to do in 1975 what the Messenger would do if he were here today, exactly what HPB came to do at the beginning of her mission in 1875. The �effort� of the 20th Century begins in the same way and in the same place as began the previous �effort�---in America and at that fulcrum of contested power where the psychological warfare for the soul of the West is at its height, where �the Brothers of the Shadow� and their hosts_of elementaries are concentrating their effort to breach �The Guardian Wall� and let loose on mankind a new flood of demonism accompanied by a wave of unutterable depravities which, they hope, will lead to another long Dark Age under the aegis of their Ma-Mo Gods of Darkness."


            "One hundred years ago it required an HPB to give us the meaning of these things, coming as she did in conformity with the edict of Tsong-Kha-Pa, to help save the West from the Black Tide he himself had turned back, now 500 years ago, in Tibet. But in 1975 no student of her works needs more than �horse sense� to see the occult implications of what today again is unfolding before his very eyes---and with graver import than a century ago. Yes, �horse sense--- and fealty and courage."

            Extracts
            November 20, 1975
            Walter A. Carrithers, Jr.,
            Secretary, THE BLAVATSKY FOUNDATION.


            5) Lucis Trust (I have mailed the headquarters - they responded at first - but have not responded since my last email for some weeks now. Perhaps they suddenly got busy? - They claim they are non-sectarian on their website and tell me that they give primary emphasis on Alice A. Bailey's books - and other words). ...Are any of them online on their websites clearly presented in the name of Altruism?I think not. And we ask why not - in the name of Altruism? MS.


            JPC: Regards the "centennial �impulse" of the document and of previous Theosophical works such a centennial impulse indicates a one hundred years ray cycle. The work of HPB came in on that 100 year cycle as would have the indicated "torch-bearer" impulse from 1975 if it had found planetary conditions, economics and relations, conducive to a further dissemination of the wisdom. The 1920 cycle that the esoteric works of AAB, a second ray disciple of KH came in upon, was not a first ray cycle but a second ray cycle for the twentieth century. The Tibetan DK indicated this and also indicated his work was not complete and that the third phase of the teachings would resume from 1975 only if planetary conditions were permitting.


            "It is at this point that students in one branch of our theosophical movement must recognize the fact that just as H. P. B. came forth on a cyclic tide of energy to destroy the limiting forms to be found in the world of science and religion, so his work must fit in with other force emanations, such as the constructive work of the second ray in conjunction with the energy of the seventh at this time.


            When students learn to blend the one hundred year cycles of the first type of energy with the equally powerful impulses from the second Ray and the third, we shall then have a cessation of many controversies. No great impulse will come from the Lodge along the line of the first Ray of Will or Power till the close of a century." TCF 1038.


            "H. P. B. is right in his affirmation as far as the impulse of the first ray is concerned; but his followers are not right, in so far as they overlook and negate the six other types of impulses, of equal or of more importance, which may emanate cyclically from the Lodge, and which will meet with response from those who vibrate to that particular type of energy." TCF 1039.


            "1. Preparatory, given 1875 - 1890...written down by H.P.B.
            2. Intermediate, given 1919 - 1949...written down by A.A.B.
            3. Revelatory, emerging after 1975...to be given on a worldwide scale via the radio.


            In the next century and early in the century an initiate will appear and will carry on this teaching. It will be under the same "impression," for my task is not yet completed and this series of bridging treatises between the material knowledge of man and the science of the initiates has still another phase to run. The remainder of this century, as I told you elsewhere (Destiny of the Nations, Page 106), must be dedicated to rebuilding the shrine of man's living, to reconstructing the form of humanity's life, to reconstituting the new civilization upon the foundations of the old, and to the reorganizing of the structures of world thought, world politics, plus the redistribution of the world's resources in conformity to divine purpose. Then and only then will it be possible to carry the revelation further." RI 225.


            "...when the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth." Key to Theosophy.


            "In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, like the once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions and philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and lost to men, but is at last found." SD1 xxxviii


            "Theosophy, through its mouthpiece, the Society" BCW 174.


            "Theosophy has to fight intolerance, prejudice, ignorance and selfishness, hidden under the mantle of hypocrisy. It has to throw all the light it can from the torch of Truth, with which its servants are entrusted. It must do this without fear or hesitation, dreading neither reproof nor condemnation. Theosophy, through its mouthpiece, the Society, has to tell the TRUTH to the very face of LIE; to beard the tiger in its den, without thought or fear of evil consequences, and to set at defiance �ORIGINAL PROGRAMME� MANUSCRIPT 175
            calumny and threats. As an Association, it has not only the right, but the duty to uncloak vice and do its best to redress wrongs, whether through the voice of its chosen lecturers or the printed word of its journals and publications�making its accusations, however, as impersonal as possible. But its Fellows, or Members, have individually no such right. Its followers have, first of all, to set the example of a firmly outlined and as firmly applied morality, before they obtain the right to point out, even in a spirit of kindness, the absence of a like ethic unity and singleness of purpose in other associations or individuals. No Theosophist should blame a brother, whether within or outside of the association; neither may he throw a slur upon another�s actions or denounce him, lest he himself lose the right to be considered as a Theosophist. BCW VII 174/5.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Govert Schuller
            Dear Paulo, You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can’t deal with them all, I only like to suggest that two negatives don’t make a positive in
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 28, 2012
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              Dear Paulo,



              You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can’t deal with them all,
              I only like to suggest that two negatives don’t make a positive in this
              investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
              skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
              methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
              Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
              biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
              palatable, they’re still important to read, even if only to get familiar
              with what’s out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.



              From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
              Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
              To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth





              Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.

              I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
              closer to Daniel's.
              I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
              a good book, when her statements on this video

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
              <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
              &feature=related
              (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)

              confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
              http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm

              I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
              lies.

              For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
              teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
              Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
              you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
              Lady.

              I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
              admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
              there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
              the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
              1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
              them had to say in 2006:

              http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
              m_2006.html

              In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
              aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
              published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
              Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
              in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
              I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".

              She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
              theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
              Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
              and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
              Theosophy and its teachings."

              "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
              acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
              much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
              less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
              last several years — that is her own business."

              Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
              did Emma leave the TS?

              About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
              written by Carrithers:

              http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf

              http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf

              and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat

              http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298

              which are of some interest, concerning this subject.

              When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
              of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
              of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
              about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
              reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
              support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
              books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
              teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.

              In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
              of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
              Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
              Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.

              It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
              heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
              even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
              the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
              are now.
              There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
              had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
              we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
              and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
              visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
              discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.

              I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
              impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
              Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.

              Blavatsky's words were:
              "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
              outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
              — has taken place. "

              And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
              quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.

              PB



              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Cass Silva
              How can one person ever know another?  Read any biography and it will always be slanted towards the subjective opinion of the teller or the subjective opinion
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 28, 2012
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                How can one person ever know another?  Read any biography and it will always be slanted towards the subjective opinion of the teller or the subjective opinion of the reteller of events.  The only way we can know Blavatsky is through her works and what she personally wrote to those outside of the TS, as one would imagine, there would be no bias either way.  She was just telling it how she saw it.

                Cass



                >________________________________
                > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@...>
                >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2012 6:24 AM
                >Subject: RE: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                >
                >

                >Dear Paulo,
                >
                >You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can’t deal with them all,
                >I only like to suggest that two negatives don’t make a positive in this
                >investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                >skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                >methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
                >Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                >biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
                >palatable, they’re still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                >with what’s out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                >
                >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                >Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                >Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                >
                >Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                >
                >I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                >closer to Daniel's.
                >I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
                >a good book, when her statements on this video
                >
                >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                >&feature=related
                >(check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                >
                >confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                >
                >I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
                >lies.
                >
                >For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
                >teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
                >Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
                >you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                >Lady.
                >
                >I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                >admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                >there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                >the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                >1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                >them had to say in 2006:
                >
                >http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                >m_2006.html
                >
                >In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                >aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                >published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
                >Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
                >in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
                >I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                >
                >She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                >theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                >Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
                >and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
                >Theosophy and its teachings."
                >
                >"The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                >acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                >much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                >less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
                >last several years — that is her own business."
                >
                >Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                >did Emma leave the TS?
                >
                >About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                >written by Carrithers:
                >
                >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                >
                >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                >
                >and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                >
                >http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                >
                >which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                >
                >When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
                >of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
                >of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                >about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
                >reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                >support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                >books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                >teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                >
                >In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
                >of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                >Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                >Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                >
                >It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                >heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
                >even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
                >the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                >are now.
                >There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
                >had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                >we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                >and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                >visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                >discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                >
                >I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                >impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                >Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                >
                >Blavatsky's words were:
                >"Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                >outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
                >— has taken place. "
                >
                >And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                >quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                >
                >PB
                >
                >No virus found in this message.
                >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                >Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Govert Schuller
                ‘She was just telling it how she saw it.’ Or she was just telling it how she liked them to see it. As Daniel and you say, there is no foolproof objectivity
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 29, 2012
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                  ‘She was just telling it how she saw it.’



                  Or she was just telling it how she liked them to see it.



                  As Daniel and you say, there is no foolproof objectivity in these matters. As a researcher you cannot have it both ways, that is, to see biographical works on HPB as merely subjective opinions and HPB’s works as un-biased. As a believer though, you can.



                  From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                  Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:43 PM
                  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth





                  How can one person ever know another? Read any biography and it will always be slanted towards the subjective opinion of the teller or the subjective opinion of the reteller of events. The only way we can know Blavatsky is through her works and what she personally wrote to those outside of the TS, as one would imagine, there would be no bias either way. She was just telling it how she saw it.

                  Cass

                  >________________________________
                  > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2012 6:24 AM
                  >Subject: RE: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Dear Paulo,
                  >
                  >You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can’t deal with them all,
                  >I only like to suggest that two negatives don’t make a positive in this
                  >investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                  >skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                  >methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
                  >Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                  >biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
                  >palatable, they’re still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                  >with what’s out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                  >
                  >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  >Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                  >Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                  >
                  >Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                  >
                  >I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                  >closer to Daniel's.
                  >I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
                  >a good book, when her statements on this video
                  >
                  >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                  ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                  >&feature=related
                  >(check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                  >
                  >confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                  >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                  >
                  >I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
                  >lies.
                  >
                  >For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
                  >teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
                  >Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
                  >you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                  >Lady.
                  >
                  >I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                  >admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                  >there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                  >the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                  >1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                  >them had to say in 2006:
                  >
                  >http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                  >m_2006.html
                  >
                  >In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                  >aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                  >published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
                  >Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
                  >in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
                  >I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                  >
                  >She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                  >theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                  >Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
                  >and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
                  >Theosophy and its teachings."
                  >
                  >"The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                  >acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                  >much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                  >less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
                  >last several years — that is her own business."
                  >
                  >Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                  >did Emma leave the TS?
                  >
                  >About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                  >written by Carrithers:
                  >
                  >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                  >
                  >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                  >
                  >and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                  >
                  >http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                  >
                  >which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                  >
                  >When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
                  >of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
                  >of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                  >about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
                  >reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                  >support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                  >books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                  >teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                  >
                  >In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
                  >of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                  >Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                  >Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                  >
                  >It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                  >heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
                  >even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
                  >the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                  >are now.
                  >There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
                  >had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                  >we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                  >and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                  >visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                  >discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                  >
                  >I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                  >impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                  >Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                  >
                  >Blavatsky's words were:
                  >"Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                  >outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
                  >— has taken place. "
                  >
                  >And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                  >quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                  >
                  >PB
                  >
                  >No virus found in this message.
                  >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  >Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4773 - Release Date: 01/28/12



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Cass Silva
                  Not so much as a believer but more as a profiler. Cass ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 30, 2012
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                    Not so much as a believer but more as a profiler.
                    Cass



                    >________________________________
                    > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@...>
                    >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Monday, 30 January 2012 6:35 AM
                    >Subject: RE: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                    >
                    >

                    >‘She was just telling it how she saw it.’
                    >
                    >Or she was just telling it how she liked them to see it.
                    >
                    >As Daniel and you say, there is no foolproof objectivity in these matters. As a researcher you cannot have it both ways, that is, to see biographical works on HPB as merely subjective opinions and HPB’s works as un-biased. As a believer though, you can.
                    >
                    >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                    >Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:43 PM
                    >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                    >
                    >How can one person ever know another? Read any biography and it will always be slanted towards the subjective opinion of the teller or the subjective opinion of the reteller of events. The only way we can know Blavatsky is through her works and what she personally wrote to those outside of the TS, as one would imagine, there would be no bias either way. She was just telling it how she saw it.
                    >
                    >Cass
                    >
                    >>________________________________
                    >> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                    >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >>Sent: Sunday, 29 January 2012 6:24 AM
                    >>Subject: RE: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Dear Paulo,
                    >>
                    >>You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can’t deal with them all,
                    >>I only like to suggest that two negatives don’t make a positive in this
                    >>investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                    >>skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                    >>methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
                    >>Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                    >>biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
                    >>palatable, they’re still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                    >>with what’s out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                    >>
                    >>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                    >>Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                    >>Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                    >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >>Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                    >>
                    >>Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                    >>
                    >>I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                    >>closer to Daniel's.
                    >>I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
                    >>a good book, when her statements on this video
                    >>
                    >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                    >><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                    >>&feature=related
                    >>(check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                    >>
                    >>confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                    >>http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                    >>
                    >>I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
                    >>lies.
                    >>
                    >>For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
                    >>teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
                    >>Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
                    >>you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                    >>Lady.
                    >>
                    >>I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                    >>admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                    >>there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                    >>the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                    >>1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                    >>them had to say in 2006:
                    >>
                    >>http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                    >>m_2006.html
                    >>
                    >>In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                    >>aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                    >>published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
                    >>Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
                    >>in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
                    >>I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                    >>
                    >>She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                    >>theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                    >>Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
                    >>and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
                    >>Theosophy and its teachings."
                    >>
                    >>"The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                    >>acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                    >>much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                    >>less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
                    >>last several years — that is her own business."
                    >>
                    >>Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                    >>did Emma leave the TS?
                    >>
                    >>About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                    >>written by Carrithers:
                    >>
                    >>http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                    >>
                    >>http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                    >>
                    >>and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                    >>
                    >>http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                    >>
                    >>which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                    >>
                    >>When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
                    >>of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
                    >>of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                    >>about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
                    >>reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                    >>support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                    >>books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                    >>teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                    >>
                    >>In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
                    >>of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                    >>Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                    >>Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                    >>
                    >>It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                    >>heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
                    >>even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
                    >>the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                    >>are now.
                    >>There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
                    >>had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                    >>we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                    >>and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                    >>visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                    >>discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                    >>
                    >>I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                    >>impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                    >>Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                    >>
                    >>Blavatsky's words were:
                    >>"Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                    >>outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
                    >>— has taken place. "
                    >>
                    >>And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                    >>quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                    >>
                    >>PB
                    >>
                    >>No virus found in this message.
                    >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    >>Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                    >>
                    >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
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                    >No virus found in this message.
                    >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    >Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4773 - Release Date: 01/28/12
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                    >
                    >
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                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • paulobaptista_v
                    Dear Govert, I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 2, 2012
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                      Dear Govert,

                      I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by some theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud" or "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable HPB biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens because some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                      In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these authors have in their books:

                      http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                      http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm

                      I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                      I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller, Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect of course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and teachings that she brought to the world.

                      I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account those who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must be discarded.

                      I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will try again.
                      Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When did Emma leave the TS?

                      I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal in some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is your opinion about Aïvanhov?

                      PB

                      --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Paulo,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them all,
                      > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                      > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                      > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                      > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
                      > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                      > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
                      > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                      > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                      > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                      > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                      > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                      >
                      > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                      > closer to Daniel's.
                      > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
                      > a good book, when her statements on this video
                      >
                      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                      > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                      > &feature=related
                      > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                      >
                      > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                      > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                      >
                      > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
                      > lies.
                      >
                      > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
                      > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
                      > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
                      > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                      > Lady.
                      >
                      > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                      > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                      > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                      > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                      > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                      > them had to say in 2006:
                      >
                      > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                      > m_2006.html
                      >
                      > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                      > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                      > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
                      > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
                      > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
                      > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                      >
                      > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                      > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                      > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
                      > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
                      > Theosophy and its teachings."
                      >
                      > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                      > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                      > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                      > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
                      > last several years — that is her own business."
                      >
                      > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                      > did Emma leave the TS?
                      >
                      > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                      > written by Carrithers:
                      >
                      > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                      >
                      > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                      >
                      > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                      >
                      > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                      >
                      > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                      >
                      > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
                      > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
                      > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                      > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
                      > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                      > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                      > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                      > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                      >
                      > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
                      > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                      > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                      > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                      >
                      > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                      > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
                      > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
                      > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                      > are now.
                      > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
                      > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                      > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                      > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                      > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                      > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                      >
                      > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                      > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                      > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                      >
                      > Blavatsky's words were:
                      > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                      > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
                      > — has taken place. "
                      >
                      > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                      > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                      >
                      > PB
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > No virus found in this message.
                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Cass Silva
                      When we speak about HPB being a fraud does this mean that what she wrote in IV and SD is fraudulent? Cass ... authors were not primarily concerned in producing
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 2, 2012
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                      • 0 Attachment
                        When we speak about HPB being a fraud does this mean that what she wrote in IV and SD is fraudulent?
                        Cass



                        >________________________________
                        > From: paulobaptista_v <paulobaptista_v@...>
                        >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        >Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 8:06 AM
                        >Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                        >
                        >

                        >
                        >
                        >Dear Govert,
                        >
                        >I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by some theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud" or "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable HPB biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens because some of those
                        authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                        >In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these authors have in their books:
                        >
                        >http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                        >http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                        >
                        >I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                        >I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller, Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect of course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and teachings that she brought to the world.
                        >
                        >I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account those who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must be discarded.
                        >
                        >I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will try again.
                        >Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When did Emma leave the TS?
                        >
                        >I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal in some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                        >
                        >PB
                        >
                        >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Dear Paulo,
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them all,
                        >> I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                        >> investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                        >> skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                        >> methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
                        >> Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                        >> biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
                        >> palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                        >> with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                        >> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                        >> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                        >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                        >>
                        >> I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                        >> closer to Daniel's.
                        >> I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
                        >> a good book, when her statements on this video
                        >>
                        >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                        >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                        >> &feature=related
                        >> (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                        >>
                        >> confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                        >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                        >>
                        >> I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
                        >> lies.
                        >>
                        >> For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
                        >> teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
                        >> Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
                        >> you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                        >> Lady.
                        >>
                        >> I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                        >> admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                        >> there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                        >> the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                        >> 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                        >> them had to say in 2006:
                        >>
                        >> http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                        >> m_2006.html
                        >>
                        >> In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                        >> aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                        >> published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
                        >> Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
                        >> in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
                        >> I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                        >>
                        >> She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                        >> theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                        >> Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
                        >> and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
                        >> Theosophy and its teachings."
                        >>
                        >> "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                        >> acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                        >> much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                        >> less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
                        >> last several years — that is her own business."
                        >>
                        >> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                        >> did Emma leave the TS?
                        >>
                        >> About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                        >> written by Carrithers:
                        >>
                        >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                        >>
                        >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                        >>
                        >> and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                        >>
                        >> http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                        >>
                        >> which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                        >>
                        >> When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
                        >> of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
                        >> of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                        >> about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
                        >> reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                        >> support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                        >> books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                        >> teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                        >>
                        >> In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
                        >> of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                        >> Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                        >> Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                        >>
                        >> It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                        >> heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
                        >> even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
                        >> the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                        >> are now.
                        >> There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
                        >> had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                        >> we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                        >> and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                        >> visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                        >> discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                        >>
                        >> I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                        >> impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                        >> Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                        >>
                        >> Blavatsky's words were:
                        >> "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                        >> outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
                        >> — has taken place. "
                        >>
                        >> And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                        >> quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                        >>
                        >> PB
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> No virus found in this message.
                        >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        >> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Augoeides-222@comcast.net
                        Paulo,     Thanks for those nice links that deconstruct the tamas writers who failed to impede H.P.Blavatsky s impact and reception to so many who read
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 2, 2012
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                          Paulo,

                              Thanks for those nice links that deconstruct the "tamas" writers who failed to impede H.P.Blavatsky's impact and reception to so many who read her and were inspired by her knowledge, profound dissertations, and va lued  contributions. The second link was very nice work. IONS was originally founded by the U.S. Astronaut Edgar Mitchell who had his own apo theosis in space which motivated him to later create the Institute of Noetic  Science.



                          I am not qualified to treat on the subjects you asked about,  my apoligies. But I await with interest the replies fromthose who know more than I do about "Art Maghic" etc.

                           

                           Hope you continue to post here,



                          John






                          ----- Original Message -----


                          From: "paulobaptista_v" <paulobaptista_v@...>
                          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2012 1:06:11 PM
                          Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov

                           






                          Dear Govert,

                          I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by some theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud" or "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable HPB biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens because some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                          In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these authors have in their books:

                          http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                          http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm

                          I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                          I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller, Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect of course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and teachings that she brought to the world.

                          I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account those who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must be discarded.

                          I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will try again.
                          Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When did Emma leave the TS?

                          I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal in some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is your opinion about Aïvanhov?

                          PB

                          --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Paulo,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them all,
                          > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                          > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                          > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                          > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that, even
                          > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                          > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find them
                          > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                          > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com ] On
                          > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                          > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                          > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                          >
                          > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                          > closer to Daniel's.
                          > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned as
                          > a good book, when her statements on this video
                          >
                          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                          > < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related >
                          > &feature=related
                          > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                          >
                          > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                          > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                          >
                          > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to depict
                          > lies.
                          >
                          > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and her
                          > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict way,
                          > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful if
                          > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                          > Lady.
                          >
                          > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                          > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                          > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                          > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                          > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                          > them had to say in 2006:
                          >
                          > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                          > m_2006.html
                          >
                          > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                          > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                          > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc Demarest.
                          > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of truth"
                          > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous page
                          > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                          >
                          > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                          > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                          > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the "Adept"
                          > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists against
                          > Theosophy and its teachings."
                          >
                          > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                          > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                          > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                          > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for the
                          > last several years — that is her own business."
                          >
                          > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                          > did Emma leave the TS?
                          >
                          > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                          > written by Carrithers:
                          >
                          > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                          >
                          > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                          >
                          > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                          >
                          > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                          >
                          > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                          >
                          > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a popularization
                          > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of men
                          > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                          > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson about
                          > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                          > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                          > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                          > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                          >
                          > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the translation
                          > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                          > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                          > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                          >
                          > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                          > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies (and
                          > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened in
                          > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                          > are now.
                          > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the TS
                          > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                          > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                          > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                          > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                          > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                          >
                          > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                          > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                          > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                          >
                          > Blavatsky's words were:
                          > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                          > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you prefer
                          > — has taken place. "
                          >
                          > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                          > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                          >
                          > PB
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > No virus found in this message.
                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Govert Schuller
                          Dear Paulo, I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
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                            Dear Paulo,



                            I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                            makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                            the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                            vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                            lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                            HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist position.
                            She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                            also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                            fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                            Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.



                            From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                            Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                            To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                            Aïvanhov







                            Dear Govert,

                            I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                            Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                            just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                            without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                            biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by some
                            theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                            some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                            preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud" or
                            "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                            real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                            scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                            incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable HPB
                            biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens because
                            some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                            work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                            interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                            suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                            In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                            authors have in their books:

                            http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                            http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm

                            I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                            of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                            I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                            Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                            satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect of
                            course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                            to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                            achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                            teachings that she brought to the world.

                            I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                            wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account those
                            who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must be
                            discarded.

                            I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                            try again.
                            Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                            did Emma leave the TS?

                            I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                            concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal in
                            some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                            astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                            if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                            connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                            to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                            connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                            your opinion about Aïvanhov?

                            PB

                            --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                            "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Paulo,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                            all,
                            > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                            > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                            > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                            > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                            even
                            > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                            > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                            them
                            > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                            > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                            [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                            On
                            > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                            > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                            > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                            >
                            > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                            > closer to Daniel's.
                            > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                            as
                            > a good book, when her statements on this video
                            >
                            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                            > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                            <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                            &feature=related>
                            > &feature=related
                            > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                            >
                            > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                            > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                            >
                            > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                            depict
                            > lies.
                            >
                            > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                            her
                            > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                            way,
                            > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                            if
                            > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                            > Lady.
                            >
                            > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                            > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                            > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                            > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                            > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                            > them had to say in 2006:
                            >
                            >
                            http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                            > m_2006.html
                            >
                            > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                            > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                            > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                            Demarest.
                            > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                            truth"
                            > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                            page
                            > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                            >
                            > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                            > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                            > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                            "Adept"
                            > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                            against
                            > Theosophy and its teachings."
                            >
                            > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                            > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                            > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                            > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                            the
                            > last several years — that is her own business."
                            >
                            > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                            When
                            > did Emma leave the TS?
                            >
                            > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                            > written by Carrithers:
                            >
                            > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                            >
                            > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                            >
                            > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                            >
                            > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                            >
                            > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                            >
                            > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                            popularization
                            > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                            men
                            > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                            > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                            about
                            > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                            > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                            > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                            > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                            >
                            > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                            translation
                            > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                            > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                            > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                            >
                            > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                            > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                            (and
                            > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                            in
                            > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                            > are now.
                            > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                            TS
                            > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                            > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                            > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                            > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                            > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                            >
                            > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                            > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                            > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                            >
                            > Blavatsky's words were:
                            > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                            > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                            prefer
                            > — has taken place. "
                            >
                            > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                            > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                            >
                            > PB
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • MKR
                            Is Meade s book available as a pdf file? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
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                              Is Meade's book available as a pdf file?

                              On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Govert Schuller <schuller@...>wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Paulo,
                              >
                              > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                              > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                              > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                              > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                              > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                              > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                              > position.
                              > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                              > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                              > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                              > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                              >
                              > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                              > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                              > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                              > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                              > and
                              > Aïvanhov
                              >
                              > Dear Govert,
                              >
                              > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                              > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                              > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                              > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                              > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                              > some
                              > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                              > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                              > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                              > or
                              > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                              > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                              > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                              > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                              > HPB
                              > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                              > because
                              > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                              > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                              > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                              > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                              > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                              > authors have in their books:
                              >
                              > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                              > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                              >
                              > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                              > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                              > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                              > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                              > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                              > of
                              > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                              > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                              > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                              > teachings that she brought to the world.
                              >
                              > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                              > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                              > those
                              > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                              > be
                              > discarded.
                              >
                              > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                              > try again.
                              > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                              > When
                              > did Emma leave the TS?
                              >
                              > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                              > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                              > in
                              > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                              > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                              > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                              > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                              > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                              > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                              > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                              >
                              > PB
                              >
                              > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                              >
                              > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Dear Paulo,
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                              > all,
                              > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                              > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                              > HPB
                              > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                              > their
                              > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                              > even
                              > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                              > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                              > them
                              > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                              > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                              >
                              > On
                              > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                              > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                              > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                              > >
                              > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                              > > closer to Daniel's.
                              > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                              > as
                              > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                              > >
                              > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                              > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                              > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                              >
                              > &feature=related>
                              > > &feature=related
                              > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                              > >
                              > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                              > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                              > >
                              > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                              > depict
                              > > lies.
                              > >
                              > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                              > her
                              > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                              > way,
                              > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                              > if
                              > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                              > > Lady.
                              > >
                              > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                              > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                              > alpheus.org
                              > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                              > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                              > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                              > > them had to say in 2006:
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                              > > m_2006.html
                              > >
                              > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                              > am
                              > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                              > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                              > Demarest.
                              > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                              > truth"
                              > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                              > page
                              > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                              > >
                              > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                              > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                              > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                              > "Adept"
                              > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                              > against
                              > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                              > >
                              > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                              > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                              > > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                              > far
                              > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                              > the
                              > > last several years — that is her own business."
                              > >
                              > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                              > When
                              > > did Emma leave the TS?
                              > >
                              > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                              > articles
                              > > written by Carrithers:
                              > >
                              > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                              > >
                              > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                              > >
                              > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                              > >
                              > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                              > >
                              > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                              > >
                              > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                              > popularization
                              > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                              > men
                              > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                              > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                              > about
                              > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                              > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                              > Weiss'
                              > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                              > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                              > >
                              > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                              > translation
                              > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                              > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                              > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                              > >
                              > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                              > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                              > (and
                              > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                              > in
                              > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                              > they
                              > > are now.
                              > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                              > TS
                              > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                              > literally,
                              > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                              > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                              > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                              > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                              > >
                              > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                              > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                              > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                              > >
                              > > Blavatsky's words were:
                              > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                              > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                              > prefer
                              > > — has taken place. "
                              > >
                              > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                              > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                              > >
                              > > PB
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > No virus found in this message.
                              > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
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                              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • paulobaptista_v
                              Dear Govert, As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB. Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
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                                Dear Govert,

                                As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB. Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so much with the evaluation of personalities.

                                Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about Meade's book.

                                "In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas: Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley, William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.

                                I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc. (1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about concerning Hartmann."

                                D. Caldwell

                                http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm

                                PB


                                --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Paulo,
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist position.
                                > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                > Aïvanhov
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Dear Govert,
                                >
                                > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by some
                                > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud" or
                                > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable HPB
                                > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens because
                                > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                > authors have in their books:
                                >
                                > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                >
                                > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect of
                                > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                > teachings that she brought to the world.
                                >
                                > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account those
                                > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must be
                                > discarded.
                                >
                                > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                > try again.
                                > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                                > did Emma leave the TS?
                                >
                                > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal in
                                > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                >
                                > PB
                                >
                                > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dear Paulo,
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                > all,
                                > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                                > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                                > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                > even
                                > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                > them
                                > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                > On
                                > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                > >
                                > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                > > closer to Daniel's.
                                > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                > as
                                > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                > >
                                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                                > &feature=related>
                                > > &feature=related
                                > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                > >
                                > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                > >
                                > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                > depict
                                > > lies.
                                > >
                                > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                > her
                                > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                > way,
                                > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                > if
                                > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                > > Lady.
                                > >
                                > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                                > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                > > them had to say in 2006:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                > > m_2006.html
                                > >
                                > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                                > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                > Demarest.
                                > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                > truth"
                                > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                > page
                                > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                > >
                                > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                > "Adept"
                                > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                > against
                                > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                > >
                                > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                > > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                                > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                > the
                                > > last several years — that is her own business."
                                > >
                                > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                > When
                                > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                > >
                                > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                                > > written by Carrithers:
                                > >
                                > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                > >
                                > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                > >
                                > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                > >
                                > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                > >
                                > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                > >
                                > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                > popularization
                                > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                > men
                                > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                > about
                                > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                                > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                > >
                                > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                > translation
                                > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                > >
                                > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                > (and
                                > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                > in
                                > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                                > > are now.
                                > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                > TS
                                > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                                > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                > >
                                > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                > >
                                > > Blavatsky's words were:
                                > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                > prefer
                                > > — has taken place. "
                                > >
                                > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                > >
                                > > PB
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > No virus found in this message.
                                > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                                > >
                                > >
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                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                              • Cass Silva
                                Didn t Kuthumi tell us that they would only present themselves while HPB was their messenger and that after her demise all public contact would be lost.  So
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
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                                  Didn't Kuthumi tell us that they would only present themselves while HPB was their messenger and that after her demise all 'public' contact would be lost.  So my thinking is that those that stated they were visited by a Master (or a Chela) were simply using it as a ploy to retain the credibility of what they were saying - the boss said it and backs up my claim'. Whether they, the masters, came to them intuitively is well up for grabs, but what was emphasised was that they appeared to them in full dress!  Don't believe it. If you want to change the world you don't do it through a channeller.
                                  Cass



                                  >>________________________________
                                  > From: paulobaptista_v <paulobaptista_v@...>
                                  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2012 6:50 AM
                                  >Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                  >
                                  >

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Dear Govert,
                                  >
                                  >As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB. Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                  >
                                  >Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about Meade's book.
                                  >
                                  >"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas: Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley, William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                  >
                                  >I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc. (1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about concerning Hartmann."
                                  >
                                  >D. Caldwell
                                  >
                                  >http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                  >
                                  >PB
                                  >
                                  >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> Dear Paulo,
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                  >> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                  >> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                  >> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                  >> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                  >> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist position.
                                  >> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                  >> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                  >> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                  >> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  >> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                  >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                  >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                  >> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                  >> Aïvanhov
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Dear Govert,
                                  >>
                                  >> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                  >> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                  >> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                  >> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                  >> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by some
                                  >> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                  >> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                  >> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud" or
                                  >> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                  >> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                  >> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                  >> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable HPB
                                  >> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens because
                                  >> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                  >> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                  >> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                  >> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                  >> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                  >> authors have in their books:
                                  >>
                                  >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                  >> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                  >>
                                  >> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                  >> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                  >> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                  >> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                  >> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect of
                                  >> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                  >> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                  >> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                  >> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                  >>
                                  >> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                  >> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account those
                                  >> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must be
                                  >> discarded.
                                  >>
                                  >> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                  >> try again.
                                  >> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic? When
                                  >> did Emma leave the TS?
                                  >>
                                  >> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                  >> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal in
                                  >> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                  >> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                  >> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                  >> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                  >> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                  >> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                  >> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                  >>
                                  >> PB
                                  >>
                                  >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                  >> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Dear Paulo,
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                  >> all,
                                  >> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                  >> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by HPB
                                  >> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though their
                                  >> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                  >> even
                                  >> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                  >> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                  >> them
                                  >> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                  >> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                  >> On
                                  >> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                  >> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                  >> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  >> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                  >> > closer to Daniel's.
                                  >> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                  >> as
                                  >> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                  >> >
                                  >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                  >> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                  >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                                  >> &feature=related>
                                  >> > &feature=related
                                  >> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                  >> >
                                  >> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                  >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                  >> >
                                  >> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                  >> depict
                                  >> > lies.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                  >> her
                                  >> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                  >> way,
                                  >> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                  >> if
                                  >> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                  >> > Lady.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                  >> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in alpheus.org
                                  >> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                  >> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                  >> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                  >> > them had to say in 2006:
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                  >> > m_2006.html
                                  >> >
                                  >> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I am
                                  >> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                  >> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                  >> Demarest.
                                  >> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                  >> truth"
                                  >> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                  >> page
                                  >> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                  >> >
                                  >> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                  >> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                  >> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                  >> "Adept"
                                  >> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                  >> against
                                  >> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                  >> >
                                  >> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                  >> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                  >> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say far
                                  >> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                  >> the
                                  >> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                  >> When
                                  >> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                  >> >
                                  >> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two articles
                                  >> > written by Carrithers:
                                  >> >
                                  >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                  >> >
                                  >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                  >> >
                                  >> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                  >> >
                                  >> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                  >> >
                                  >> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                  >> popularization
                                  >> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                  >> men
                                  >> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                  >> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                  >> about
                                  >> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                  >> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian Weiss'
                                  >> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                  >> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                  >> translation
                                  >> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                  >> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                  >> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                  >> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                  >> (and
                                  >> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                  >> in
                                  >> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as they
                                  >> > are now.
                                  >> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                  >> TS
                                  >> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words literally,
                                  >> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                  >> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                  >> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                  >> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                  >> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                  >> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                  >> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                  >> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                  >> prefer
                                  >> > — has taken place. "
                                  >> >
                                  >> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                  >> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                  >> >
                                  >> > PB
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > No virus found in this message.
                                  >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  >> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> >
                                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >> >
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> No virus found in this message.
                                  >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  >> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • MKR
                                  Amen! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 4, 2012
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                                    Amen!

                                    On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Didn't Kuthumi tell us that they would only present themselves while HPB
                                    > was their messenger and that after her demise all 'public' contact would be
                                    > lost. So my thinking is that those that stated they were visited by a
                                    > Master (or a Chela) were simply using it as a ploy to retain the
                                    > credibility of what they were saying - the boss said it and backs up my
                                    > claim'. Whether they, the masters, came to them intuitively is well up for
                                    > grabs, but what was emphasised was that they appeared to them in full
                                    > dress! Don't believe it. If you want to change the world you don't do it
                                    > through a channeller.
                                    > Cass
                                    >
                                    > >>________________________________
                                    >
                                    > > From: paulobaptista_v <paulobaptista_v@...>
                                    > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >Sent: Sunday, 5 February 2012 6:50 AM
                                    >
                                    > >Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                    > and Aïvanhov
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >Dear Govert,
                                    > >
                                    > >As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                    > Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                    > much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                    > >
                                    > >Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I
                                    > stumbled across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit
                                    > more about Meade's book.
                                    > >
                                    > >"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                    > Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                    > William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                    > Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                    > them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                    > Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                    > >
                                    > >I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                    > exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!"
                                    > Off the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who
                                    > testified to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite
                                    > Meade's statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had
                                    > actually seen one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully
                                    > read two of the titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's
                                    > The Mahatmas And Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of
                                    > Observations, etc. (1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was
                                    > writing about concerning Hartmann."
                                    > >
                                    > >D. Caldwell
                                    > >
                                    > >http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                    > >
                                    > >PB
                                    > >
                                    > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Dear Paulo,
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric.
                                    > He
                                    > >> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                    > that
                                    > >> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                    > >> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points,
                                    > and
                                    > >> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief
                                    > of
                                    > >> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                    > position.
                                    > >> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB
                                    > but
                                    > >> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                    > >> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then
                                    > the
                                    > >> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > >> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                    > >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                    > >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                    > >> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma
                                    > Britten and
                                    > >> Aïvanhov
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Dear Govert,
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                    > >> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                    > done
                                    > >> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                    > >> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or
                                    > Washington's
                                    > >> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                    > some
                                    > >> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even
                                    > for
                                    > >> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                    > >> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a
                                    > fraud" or
                                    > >> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot
                                    > be
                                    > >> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                    > >> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                    > >> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the
                                    > unfavorable HPB
                                    > >> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                    > because
                                    > >> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a
                                    > rigorous
                                    > >> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                    > >> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                    > >> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                    > >> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that
                                    > these
                                    > >> authors have in their books:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                    > >> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this
                                    > line
                                    > >> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                    > >> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton
                                    > Fuller,
                                    > >> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and
                                    > I'm
                                    > >> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not
                                    > perfect of
                                    > >> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of
                                    > trying
                                    > >> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                    > >> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message
                                    > and
                                    > >> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if
                                    > someone
                                    > >> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                    > those
                                    > >> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies
                                    > must be
                                    > >> discarded.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I
                                    > will
                                    > >> try again.
                                    > >> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                    > When
                                    > >> did Emma leave the TS?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                    > >> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in
                                    > Portugal in
                                    > >> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's
                                    > biggest
                                    > >> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t
                                    > know
                                    > >> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                    > >> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that
                                    > seems
                                    > >> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                    > >> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What
                                    > is
                                    > >> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> PB
                                    > >>
                                    > >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > ,
                                    > >> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > Dear Paulo,
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with
                                    > them
                                    > >> all,
                                    > >> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in
                                    > this
                                    > >> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works
                                    > by HPB
                                    > >> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                    > their
                                    > >> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides
                                    > that,
                                    > >> even
                                    > >> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                    > HPB
                                    > >> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                    > >> them
                                    > >> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get
                                    > familiar
                                    > >> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > >
                                    > >> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > ]
                                    > >> On
                                    > >> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                    > >> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                    > >> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > >> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                    > are
                                    > >> > closer to Daniel's.
                                    > >> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky
                                    > mentioned
                                    > >> as
                                    > >> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                    > >> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                    > >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                                    > >> &feature=related>
                                    > >> > &feature=related
                                    > >> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                    > >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                    > >> depict
                                    > >> > lies.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky
                                    > and
                                    > >> her
                                    > >> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a
                                    > strict
                                    > >> way,
                                    > >> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely
                                    > helpful
                                    > >> if
                                    > >> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the
                                    > Old
                                    > >> > Lady.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet,
                                    > although I
                                    > >> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                    > alpheus.org
                                    > >> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                    > won
                                    > >> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the
                                    > year of
                                    > >> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what
                                    > one of
                                    > >> > them had to say in 2006:
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >>
                                    > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                    > >> > m_2006.html
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as
                                    > I am
                                    > >> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876
                                    > she
                                    > >> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                    > >> Demarest.
                                    > >> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                    > >> truth"
                                    > >> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the
                                    > previous
                                    > >> page
                                    > >> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                    > >> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma
                                    > Hardinge
                                    > >> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                    > >> "Adept"
                                    > >> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                    > >> against
                                    > >> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have
                                    > been
                                    > >> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                    > gave
                                    > >> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I
                                    > say far
                                    > >> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy
                                    > for
                                    > >> the
                                    > >> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art
                                    > Magic?
                                    > >> When
                                    > >> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                    > articles
                                    > >> > written by Carrithers:
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                    > >> popularization
                                    > >> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands
                                    > of
                                    > >> men
                                    > >> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                    > 1975
                                    > >> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                    > >> about
                                    > >> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                    > >> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                    > Weiss'
                                    > >> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                    > >> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                    > >> translation
                                    > >> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller
                                    > and
                                    > >> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek
                                    > or/and
                                    > >> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                    > has
                                    > >> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                    > >> (and
                                    > >> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                    > happened
                                    > >> in
                                    > >> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                    > they
                                    > >> > are now.
                                    > >> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did
                                    > the
                                    > >> TS
                                    > >> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                    > literally,
                                    > >> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                    > strategy,
                                    > >> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from
                                    > the
                                    > >> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we
                                    > could
                                    > >> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                    > surely
                                    > >> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                    > >> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                    > >> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                    > >> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                    > >> prefer
                                    > >> > — has taken place. "
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                    > >> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > PB
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > No virus found in this message.
                                    > >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > >> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                    > 01/21/12
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> >
                                    > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >> >
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> No virus found in this message.
                                    > >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                    > >> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date:
                                    > 02/02/12
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Govert Schuller
                                    Don’t think so. From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MKR Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:34 AM To:
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                      Don’t think so.



                                      From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MKR
                                      Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:34 AM
                                      To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov





                                      Is Meade's book available as a pdf file?

                                      On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Dear Paulo,
                                      >
                                      > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                                      > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                      > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                      > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                      > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                      > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                      > position.
                                      > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                      > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                      > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                      > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                      >
                                      > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                      > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                      > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                      > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >
                                      > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                      > and
                                      > Aïvanhov
                                      >
                                      > Dear Govert,
                                      >
                                      > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                      > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                      > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                      > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                      > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                      > some
                                      > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                      > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                      > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                      > or
                                      > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                      > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                      > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                      > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                      > HPB
                                      > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                      > because
                                      > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                      > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                      > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                      > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                      > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                      > authors have in their books:
                                      >
                                      > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                      > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                      >
                                      > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                      > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                      > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                      > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                      > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                      > of
                                      > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                      > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                      > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                      > teachings that she brought to the world.
                                      >
                                      > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                      > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                      > those
                                      > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                      > be
                                      > discarded.
                                      >
                                      > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                      > try again.
                                      > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                      > When
                                      > did Emma leave the TS?
                                      >
                                      > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                      > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                      > in
                                      > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                      > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                      > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                      > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                      > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                      > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                      > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                      >
                                      > PB
                                      >
                                      > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                      >
                                      > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear Paulo,
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                      > all,
                                      > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                      > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                      > HPB
                                      > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                      > their
                                      > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                      > even
                                      > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                      > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                      > them
                                      > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                      > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                      >
                                      > On
                                      > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                      > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                      > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                      > >
                                      > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                      > > closer to Daniel's.
                                      > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                      > as
                                      > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                      > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                      > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                                      >
                                      > &feature=related>
                                      > > &feature=related
                                      > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                      > >
                                      > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                      > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                      > >
                                      > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                      > depict
                                      > > lies.
                                      > >
                                      > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                      > her
                                      > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                      > way,
                                      > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                      > if
                                      > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                      > > Lady.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                      > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                      > alpheus.org
                                      > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                      > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                      > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                      > > them had to say in 2006:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                      > > m_2006.html
                                      > >
                                      > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                      > am
                                      > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                      > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                      > Demarest.
                                      > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                      > truth"
                                      > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                      > page
                                      > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                      > >
                                      > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                      > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                      > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                      > "Adept"
                                      > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                      > against
                                      > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                      > >
                                      > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                      > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                      > > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                      > far
                                      > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                      > the
                                      > > last several years — that is her own business."
                                      > >
                                      > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                      > When
                                      > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                      > >
                                      > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                      > articles
                                      > > written by Carrithers:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                      > >
                                      > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                      > >
                                      > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                      > >
                                      > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                      > >
                                      > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                      > popularization
                                      > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                      > men
                                      > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                      > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                      > about
                                      > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                      > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                      > Weiss'
                                      > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                      > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                      > >
                                      > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                      > translation
                                      > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                      > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                      > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                      > >
                                      > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                      > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                      > (and
                                      > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                      > in
                                      > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                      > they
                                      > > are now.
                                      > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                      > TS
                                      > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                      > literally,
                                      > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                      > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                      > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                      > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                      > >
                                      > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                      > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                      > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                      > >
                                      > > Blavatsky's words were:
                                      > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                      > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                      > prefer
                                      > > — has taken place. "
                                      > >
                                      > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                      > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                      > >
                                      > > PB
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > No virus found in this message.
                                      > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                      > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
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                                    • Govert Schuller
                                      Amazon has a paperback version for sale for $15.99. This is an Amazon review with some quotes about HPB from Meade: I always thought about H.P.B. as a talented
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                        Amazon has a paperback version for sale for $15.99.



                                        This is an Amazon review with some quotes about HPB from Meade:



                                        I always thought about H.P.B. as a talented mystifyer: her fixed, exoftalmic gaze from photographs, her hypomaniac behaviour, the episodes of auditory and visual hallucinations, and the obvious similarity of the portraits of her "Masters" with the Renaissence iconography of the Christ, all pointed to this conclusión.
                                        Somewhat hagiographic works as "H.P.B., the extraordinary life and influence of Helena Blavatsky" (by Sylvia Cranston, Ed. Tarcher-Putnam, 1993), or "Helena Petrovna Blavatsky e la Societá Teosofica" (by Paola Giovetti,Edizioni Mediterranee, Roma, 1991) helped me scarcely to the intímate knowledge of this character.
                                        Only after reading this superbly documented and written biography, the personality of HPB was properly drawn, with all its lights and shadows, absolutely humanized. As the author, Marion Mead says in the preface of the book: "When I embarked on this biography, I believed it necessary to decide whether she was truly a great person or not, one that I liked or did not. Before my research had progressed very far, it became clear that such an approach was doomed to fail. Like most people, H.P.B., as she was called, was a mixture of greatness and weakness. Only in that light is an appraisal possible. Regrettably, elements of her character are difficult to admire. But after careful study we can understand why she behaved as she did and can even sympathize without condoning her actions. At the same time, she possessed a genuine daring and a vastness of body and soul that compels admiration. In every way, she was an inmense person. She weighed more than other people, ate more, smoked more, swore more, and visualized heaven and earth in terms that dwarfed any previous conception..."
                                        In my opinion this biography is the best available work on the curious existence of Madame Blavatsky and his companion the "colonel" Henry Olcott. Absolutely essential on the subject.



                                        From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MKR
                                        Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:34 AM
                                        To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov





                                        Is Meade's book available as a pdf file?

                                        On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >wrote:

                                        > **
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Dear Paulo,
                                        >
                                        > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                                        > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                        > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                        > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                        > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                        > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                        > position.
                                        > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                        > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                        > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                        > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                        >
                                        > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                        > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                        > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                        > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        >
                                        > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                        > and
                                        > Aïvanhov
                                        >
                                        > Dear Govert,
                                        >
                                        > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                        > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                        > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                        > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                        > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                        > some
                                        > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                        > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                        > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                        > or
                                        > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                        > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                        > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                        > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                        > HPB
                                        > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                        > because
                                        > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                        > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                        > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                        > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                        > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                        > authors have in their books:
                                        >
                                        > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                        > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                        >
                                        > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                        > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                        > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                        > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                        > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                        > of
                                        > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                        > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                        > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                        > teachings that she brought to the world.
                                        >
                                        > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                        > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                        > those
                                        > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                        > be
                                        > discarded.
                                        >
                                        > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                        > try again.
                                        > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                        > When
                                        > did Emma leave the TS?
                                        >
                                        > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                        > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                        > in
                                        > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                        > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                        > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                        > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                        > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                        > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                        > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                        >
                                        > PB
                                        >
                                        > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                        >
                                        > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Dear Paulo,
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                        > all,
                                        > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                        > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                        > HPB
                                        > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                        > their
                                        > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                        > even
                                        > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                        > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                        > them
                                        > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                        > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                        >
                                        > On
                                        > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                        > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                        > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                        > >
                                        > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                        > > closer to Daniel's.
                                        > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                        > as
                                        > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                        > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                        > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                                        >
                                        > &feature=related>
                                        > > &feature=related
                                        > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                        > >
                                        > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                        > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                        > >
                                        > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                        > depict
                                        > > lies.
                                        > >
                                        > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                        > her
                                        > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                        > way,
                                        > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                        > if
                                        > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                        > > Lady.
                                        > >
                                        > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                        > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                        > alpheus.org
                                        > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                        > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                        > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                        > > them had to say in 2006:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                        > > m_2006.html
                                        > >
                                        > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                        > am
                                        > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                        > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                        > Demarest.
                                        > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                        > truth"
                                        > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                        > page
                                        > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                        > >
                                        > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                        > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                        > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                        > "Adept"
                                        > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                        > against
                                        > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                        > >
                                        > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                        > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                        > > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                        > far
                                        > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                        > the
                                        > > last several years — that is her own business."
                                        > >
                                        > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                        > When
                                        > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                        > >
                                        > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                        > articles
                                        > > written by Carrithers:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                        > >
                                        > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                        > >
                                        > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                        > >
                                        > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                        > >
                                        > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                        > popularization
                                        > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                        > men
                                        > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                        > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                        > about
                                        > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                        > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                        > Weiss'
                                        > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                        > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                        > >
                                        > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                        > translation
                                        > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                        > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                        > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                        > >
                                        > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                        > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                        > (and
                                        > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                        > in
                                        > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                        > they
                                        > > are now.
                                        > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                        > TS
                                        > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                        > literally,
                                        > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                        > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                        > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                        > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                        > >
                                        > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                        > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                        > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                        > >
                                        > > Blavatsky's words were:
                                        > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                        > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                        > prefer
                                        > > — has taken place. "
                                        > >
                                        > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                        > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                        > >
                                        > > PB
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > No virus found in this message.
                                        > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > No virus found in this message.
                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

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                                        No virus found in this message.
                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Govert Schuller
                                        That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion not
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                          That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all
                                          books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion
                                          not to read Meade.



                                          From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                          Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:51 PM
                                          To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                          Aïvanhov







                                          Dear Govert,

                                          As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                          Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                          much with the evaluation of personalities.

                                          Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled
                                          across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about
                                          Meade's book.

                                          "In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                          Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                          William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                          Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                          them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                          Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.

                                          I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                          exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off
                                          the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified
                                          to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's
                                          statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen
                                          one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the
                                          titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And
                                          Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc.
                                          (1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about
                                          concerning Hartmann."

                                          D. Caldwell

                                          http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm

                                          PB

                                          --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                          "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Paulo,
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                          > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                          that
                                          > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                          > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                          > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                          > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                          position.
                                          > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                          > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                          > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                          > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                          On
                                          > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                          > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                          > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                          and
                                          > Aïvanhov
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Dear Govert,
                                          >
                                          > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                          > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                          done
                                          > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                          > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                          > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                          some
                                          > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                          > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                          > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                          or
                                          > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                          > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                          > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                          > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                          HPB
                                          > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                          because
                                          > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                          > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                          > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                          > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                          > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                          > authors have in their books:
                                          >
                                          > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                          > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                          >
                                          > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                          > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                          > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                          > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                          > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                          of
                                          > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                          > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                          > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                          > teachings that she brought to the world.
                                          >
                                          > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                          > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                          those
                                          > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                          be
                                          > discarded.
                                          >
                                          > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                          > try again.
                                          > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                          When
                                          > did Emma leave the TS?
                                          >
                                          > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                          > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                          in
                                          > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                          > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                          > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                          > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                          > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                          > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                          > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                          >
                                          > PB
                                          >
                                          > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                          > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear Paulo,
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                          > all,
                                          > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                          > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                          HPB
                                          > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                          their
                                          > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                          > even
                                          > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                          HPB
                                          > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                          > them
                                          > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                          > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                          > On
                                          > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                          > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                          > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                          > >
                                          > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                          are
                                          > > closer to Daniel's.
                                          > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                          > as
                                          > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                          > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                          > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                          <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                                          &feature=related>
                                          > &feature=related>
                                          > > &feature=related
                                          > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                          > >
                                          > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                          > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                          > >
                                          > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                          > depict
                                          > > lies.
                                          > >
                                          > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                          > her
                                          > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                          > way,
                                          > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                          > if
                                          > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                          > > Lady.
                                          > >
                                          > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although
                                          I
                                          > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                          alpheus.org
                                          > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                          won
                                          > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year
                                          of
                                          > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one
                                          of
                                          > > them had to say in 2006:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                          > > m_2006.html
                                          > >
                                          > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                          am
                                          > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                          > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                          > Demarest.
                                          > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                          > truth"
                                          > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                          > page
                                          > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                          > >
                                          > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                          > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                          > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                          > "Adept"
                                          > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                          > against
                                          > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                          > >
                                          > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                          > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                          gave
                                          > > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                          far
                                          > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                          > the
                                          > > last several years — that is her own business."
                                          > >
                                          > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                          > When
                                          > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                          > >
                                          > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                          articles
                                          > > written by Carrithers:
                                          > >
                                          > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                          > >
                                          > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                          > >
                                          > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                          > >
                                          > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                          > >
                                          > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                          > >
                                          > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                          > popularization
                                          > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                          > men
                                          > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                          1975
                                          > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                          > about
                                          > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                          > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                          Weiss'
                                          > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                          > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                          > >
                                          > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                          > translation
                                          > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                          > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                          > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                          > >
                                          > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                          has
                                          > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                          > (and
                                          > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                          happened
                                          > in
                                          > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                          they
                                          > > are now.
                                          > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                          > TS
                                          > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                          literally,
                                          > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                          strategy,
                                          > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                          > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                          > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                          > >
                                          > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                          surely
                                          > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                          > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                          > >
                                          > > Blavatsky's words were:
                                          > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                          > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                          > prefer
                                          > > — has taken place. "
                                          > >
                                          > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                          > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                          > >
                                          > > PB
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > No virus found in this message.
                                          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                          > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                          01/21/12
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > No virus found in this message.
                                          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                          >



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                                        • paulobaptista_v
                                          Dear Govert, If the ratings and reviews in amazon.com serve as criteria for evaluating quality it should be noted that Cranston s biography of HPB is rated
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                            Dear Govert,

                                            If the ratings and reviews in amazon.com serve as criteria for evaluating quality it should be noted that Cranston's biography of HPB is rated with 5 stars (Meade's book only 4.5). I selected the following review but you can read other reviews here:

                                            http://www.amazon.com/H-Extraordinary-Influence-Blavatsky-Theosophical/dp/0874777690/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1328480631&sr=8-3

                                            4 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
                                            5.0 out of 5 stars An inspiring tale of Helena Blavatsky; a friend of humanity., September 20, 1999
                                            By A Customer
                                            This review is from: H. P. B.: The Extraordinary Life & Influence of Helena Blavastsky (Paperback)
                                            This is by far the best and most accurate biography of the mystic and altruist Blavatsky, that I have ever read! Judy Saltzman, PhD, Professor of Philosophy, has it right when she writes: "This book is the definitive contemporary biography of the `Mother' of the ideas that began the New Age Movement."

                                            As I have stated before, my favorite HPB biography was written by Jean Overton Fuller. It is rated with 5 stars too, and I have selected this review:

                                            "This book is a brilliant biography of that controversial figure Helena Blavatsky. Very much essential reading if one wants to get a balanced account of her life. There is no doubt that Jean Overton Fuller is pro-Blavatsky, but she does not in any way overlook the controversies and manages to put the criticism in context without ignoring it. Not only that, but I found the depiction of her early life quite fascinating. I had often wondered how a young woman could go around the East without being molested. Fact is she was on occasion, but she carried a gun and was prepared to use it !!! What a woman ! What a life ! And by the end of the book I was personally convinced that she was not in any way the fraud she is sometimes made out to be. Rather, a very gifted woman with a specific purpose in life. Entertaining as well as educational reading and highly recommended."

                                            You say "all books have factual errors". Is anyone willing to count how many of these errors can be found in the works of Cranston and Meade?

                                            PB

                                            --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Amazon has a paperback version for sale for $15.99.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > This is an Amazon review with some quotes about HPB from Meade:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I always thought about H.P.B. as a talented mystifyer: her fixed, exoftalmic gaze from photographs, her hypomaniac behaviour, the episodes of auditory and visual hallucinations, and the obvious similarity of the portraits of her "Masters" with the Renaissence iconography of the Christ, all pointed to this conclusión.
                                            > Somewhat hagiographic works as "H.P.B., the extraordinary life and influence of Helena Blavatsky" (by Sylvia Cranston, Ed. Tarcher-Putnam, 1993), or "Helena Petrovna Blavatsky e la Societá Teosofica" (by Paola Giovetti,Edizioni Mediterranee, Roma, 1991) helped me scarcely to the intímate knowledge of this character.
                                            > Only after reading this superbly documented and written biography, the personality of HPB was properly drawn, with all its lights and shadows, absolutely humanized. As the author, Marion Mead says in the preface of the book: "When I embarked on this biography, I believed it necessary to decide whether she was truly a great person or not, one that I liked or did not. Before my research had progressed very far, it became clear that such an approach was doomed to fail. Like most people, H.P.B., as she was called, was a mixture of greatness and weakness. Only in that light is an appraisal possible. Regrettably, elements of her character are difficult to admire. But after careful study we can understand why she behaved as she did and can even sympathize without condoning her actions. At the same time, she possessed a genuine daring and a vastness of body and soul that compels admiration. In every way, she was an inmense person. She weighed more than other people, ate more, smoked more, swore more, and visualized heaven and earth in terms that dwarfed any previous conception..."
                                            > In my opinion this biography is the best available work on the curious existence of Madame Blavatsky and his companion the "colonel" Henry Olcott. Absolutely essential on the subject.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MKR
                                            > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:34 AM
                                            > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Is Meade's book available as a pdf file?
                                            >
                                            > On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > **
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Dear Paulo,
                                            > >
                                            > > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                                            > > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                            > > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                            > > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                            > > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                            > > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                            > > position.
                                            > > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                            > > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                            > > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                            > > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                            > >
                                            > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                            > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                            > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > >
                                            > > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                            > > and
                                            > > Aïvanhov
                                            > >
                                            > > Dear Govert,
                                            > >
                                            > > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                            > > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                            > > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                            > > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                            > > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                            > > some
                                            > > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                            > > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                            > > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                            > > or
                                            > > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                            > > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                            > > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                            > > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                            > > HPB
                                            > > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                            > > because
                                            > > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                            > > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                            > > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                            > > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                            > > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                            > > authors have in their books:
                                            > >
                                            > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                            > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                            > >
                                            > > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                            > > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                            > > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                            > > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                            > > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                            > > of
                                            > > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                            > > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                            > > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                            > > teachings that she brought to the world.
                                            > >
                                            > > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                            > > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                            > > those
                                            > > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                            > > be
                                            > > discarded.
                                            > >
                                            > > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                            > > try again.
                                            > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                            > > When
                                            > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                            > >
                                            > > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                            > > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                            > > in
                                            > > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                            > > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                            > > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                            > > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                            > > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                            > > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                            > > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                            > >
                                            > > PB
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                            > >
                                            > > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Dear Paulo,
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                            > > all,
                                            > > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                            > > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                            > > HPB
                                            > > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                            > > their
                                            > > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                            > > even
                                            > > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                            > > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                            > > them
                                            > > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                            > > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                            > >
                                            > > On
                                            > > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                            > > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                            > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                            > > > closer to Daniel's.
                                            > > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                            > > as
                                            > > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                            > > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                            > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                                            > >
                                            > > &feature=related>
                                            > > > &feature=related
                                            > > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                            > > >
                                            > > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                            > > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                            > > depict
                                            > > > lies.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                            > > her
                                            > > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                            > > way,
                                            > > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                            > > if
                                            > > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                            > > > Lady.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                            > > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                            > > alpheus.org
                                            > > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                            > > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                            > > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                            > > > them had to say in 2006:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                            > > > m_2006.html
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                            > > am
                                            > > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                            > > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                            > > Demarest.
                                            > > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                            > > truth"
                                            > > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                            > > page
                                            > > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                            > > >
                                            > > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                            > > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                            > > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                            > > "Adept"
                                            > > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                            > > against
                                            > > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                            > > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                            > > > much of the information contained in the book]â€" and saying this, I say
                                            > > far
                                            > > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                            > > the
                                            > > > last several years â€" that is her own business."
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                            > > When
                                            > > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                            > > articles
                                            > > > written by Carrithers:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                            > > >
                                            > > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                            > > >
                                            > > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                            > > >
                                            > > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                            > > popularization
                                            > > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                            > > men
                                            > > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                            > > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                            > > about
                                            > > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                            > > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                            > > Weiss'
                                            > > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                            > > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                            > > translation
                                            > > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                            > > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                            > > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                            > > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                            > > (and
                                            > > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                            > > in
                                            > > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                            > > they
                                            > > > are now.
                                            > > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                            > > TS
                                            > > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                            > > literally,
                                            > > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                            > > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                            > > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                            > > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                            > > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                            > > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Blavatsky's words were:
                                            > > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                            > > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality â€" or call it mysticism if you
                                            > > prefer
                                            > > > â€" has taken place. "
                                            > > >
                                            > > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                            > > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > PB
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > No virus found in this message.
                                            > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                            > > > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > > No virus found in this message.
                                            > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                            > > Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                            > >
                                            > >
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                                            > >
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                                            >
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                                            >
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                                            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                          • Cass Silva
                                            Seems to me Mead s agenda was to shoot the messenger rather than listen to the message! Cass ... people, ate more, smoked more, swore more, and visualized
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                              Seems to me Mead's agenda was to shoot the messenger rather than listen to the message!
                                              Cass



                                              >________________________________
                                              > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@...>
                                              >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 7:23 AM
                                              >Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                              >
                                              >

                                              >Amazon has a paperback version for sale for $15.99.
                                              >
                                              >This is an Amazon review with some quotes about HPB from Meade:
                                              >
                                              >I always thought about H.P.B. as a talented mystifyer: her fixed, exoftalmic gaze from photographs, her hypomaniac behaviour, the episodes of auditory and visual hallucinations, and the obvious similarity of the portraits of her "Masters" with the Renaissence iconography of the Christ, all pointed to this conclusión.
                                              >Somewhat hagiographic works as "H.P.B., the extraordinary life and influence of Helena Blavatsky" (by Sylvia Cranston, Ed. Tarcher-Putnam, 1993), or "Helena Petrovna Blavatsky e la Societá Teosofica" (by Paola Giovetti,Edizioni Mediterranee, Roma, 1991) helped me scarcely to the intímate knowledge of this character.
                                              >Only after reading this superbly documented and written biography, the personality of HPB was properly drawn, with all its lights and shadows, absolutely humanized. As the author, Marion Mead says in the preface of the book: "When I embarked on this biography, I believed it necessary to decide whether she was truly a great person or not, one that I liked or did not. Before my research had progressed very far, it became clear that such an approach was doomed to fail. Like most people, H.P.B., as she was called, was a mixture of greatness and weakness. Only in that light is an appraisal possible. Regrettably, elements of her character are difficult to admire. But after careful study we can understand why she behaved as she did and can even sympathize without condoning her actions. At the same time, she possessed a genuine daring and a vastness of body and soul that compels admiration. In every way, she was an inmense person. She weighed more than other
                                              people, ate more, smoked more, swore more, and visualized heaven and earth in terms that dwarfed any previous conception..."
                                              >In my opinion this biography is the best available work on the curious existence of Madame Blavatsky and his companion the "colonel" Henry Olcott. Absolutely essential on the subject.
                                              >
                                              >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MKR
                                              >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:34 AM
                                              >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                              >
                                              >Is Meade's book available as a pdf file?
                                              >
                                              >On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >wrote:
                                              >
                                              >> **
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> Dear Paulo,
                                              >>
                                              >> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                                              >> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                              >> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                              >> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                              >> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                              >> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                              >> position.
                                              >> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                              >> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                              >> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                              >> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                              >>
                                              >> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                              >> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                              >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                              >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >>
                                              >> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                              >> and
                                              >> Aïvanhov
                                              >>
                                              >> Dear Govert,
                                              >>
                                              >> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                              >> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                              >> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                              >> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                              >> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                              >> some
                                              >> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                              >> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                              >> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                              >> or
                                              >> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                              >> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                              >> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                              >> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                              >> HPB
                                              >> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                              >> because
                                              >> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                              >> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                              >> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                              >> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                              >> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                              >> authors have in their books:
                                              >>
                                              >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                              >> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                              >>
                                              >> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                              >> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                              >> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                              >> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                              >> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                              >> of
                                              >> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                              >> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                              >> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                              >> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                              >>
                                              >> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                              >> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                              >> those
                                              >> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                              >> be
                                              >> discarded.
                                              >>
                                              >> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                              >> try again.
                                              >> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                              >> When
                                              >> did Emma leave the TS?
                                              >>
                                              >> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                              >> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                              >> in
                                              >> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                              >> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                              >> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                              >> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                              >> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                              >> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                              >> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                              >>
                                              >> PB
                                              >>
                                              >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                              >>
                                              >> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                              >> >
                                              >> > Dear Paulo,
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                              >> all,
                                              >> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                              >> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                              >> HPB
                                              >> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                              >> their
                                              >> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                              >> even
                                              >> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                              >> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                              >> them
                                              >> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                              >> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                              >>
                                              >> On
                                              >> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                              >> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                              >> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                              >> > closer to Daniel's.
                                              >> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                              >> as
                                              >> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                              >> >
                                              >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                              >> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                              >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                                              >>
                                              >> &feature=related>
                                              >> > &feature=related
                                              >> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                              >> >
                                              >> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                              >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                              >> >
                                              >> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                              >> depict
                                              >> > lies.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                              >> her
                                              >> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                              >> way,
                                              >> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                              >> if
                                              >> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                              >> > Lady.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                              >> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                              >> alpheus.org
                                              >> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                              >> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                              >> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                              >> > them had to say in 2006:
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >>
                                              >> http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                              >> > m_2006.html
                                              >> >
                                              >> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                              >> am
                                              >> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                              >> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                              >> Demarest.
                                              >> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                              >> truth"
                                              >> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                              >> page
                                              >> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                              >> >
                                              >> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                              >> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                              >> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                              >> "Adept"
                                              >> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                              >> against
                                              >> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                              >> >
                                              >> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                              >> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                              >> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                              >> far
                                              >> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                              >> the
                                              >> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                              >> >
                                              >> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                              >> When
                                              >> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                              >> >
                                              >> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                              >> articles
                                              >> > written by Carrithers:
                                              >> >
                                              >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                              >> >
                                              >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                              >> >
                                              >> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                              >> >
                                              >> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                              >> >
                                              >> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                              >> popularization
                                              >> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                              >> men
                                              >> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                              >> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                              >> about
                                              >> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                              >> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                              >> Weiss'
                                              >> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                              >> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                              >> translation
                                              >> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                              >> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                              >> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                              >> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                              >> (and
                                              >> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                              >> in
                                              >> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                              >> they
                                              >> > are now.
                                              >> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                              >> TS
                                              >> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                              >> literally,
                                              >> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                              >> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                              >> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                              >> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                              >> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                              >> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                              >> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                              >> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                              >> prefer
                                              >> > — has taken place. "
                                              >> >
                                              >> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                              >> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                              >> >
                                              >> > PB
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> > No virus found in this message.
                                              >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                              >> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date: 01/21/12
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> >
                                              >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >> >
                                              >>
                                              >> No virus found in this message.
                                              >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                              >> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                              >>
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                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >
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                                              >
                                              >No virus found in this message.
                                              >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                              >Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
                                              >
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                                              >
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Cass Silva
                                              What does a person s biography have to do with what they are teaching?  Mommy dearest is quite different when mommy s side is available. Cass ... [Non-text
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                                What does a person's biography have to do with what they are teaching?  Mommy dearest is quite different when mommy's side is available.

                                                Cass



                                                >________________________________
                                                > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@...>
                                                >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 7:34 AM
                                                >Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                >
                                                >

                                                >That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all
                                                >books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion
                                                >not to read Meade.
                                                >
                                                >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                >Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:51 PM
                                                >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                >Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                                >Aïvanhov
                                                >
                                                >Dear Govert,
                                                >
                                                >As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                                >Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                                >much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                                >
                                                >Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled
                                                >across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about
                                                >Meade's book.
                                                >
                                                >"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                                >Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                                >William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                                >Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                                >them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                                >Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                                >
                                                >I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                                >exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off
                                                >the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified
                                                >to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's
                                                >statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen
                                                >one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the
                                                >titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And
                                                >Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc.
                                                >(1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about
                                                >concerning Hartmann."
                                                >
                                                >D. Caldwell
                                                >
                                                >http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                                >
                                                >PB
                                                >
                                                >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                >"Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                                >>
                                                >> Dear Paulo,
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                                >> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                                >that
                                                >> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                                >> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                                >> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                                >> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                                >position.
                                                >> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                                >> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                                >> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                                >> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                >On
                                                >> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                                >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                                >and
                                                >> Aïvanhov
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Dear Govert,
                                                >>
                                                >> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                                >> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                                >done
                                                >> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                                >> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                                >> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                                >some
                                                >> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                                >> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                                >> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                                >or
                                                >> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                                >> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                                >> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                                >> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                                >HPB
                                                >> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                                >because
                                                >> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                                >> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                                >> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                                >> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                                >> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                                >> authors have in their books:
                                                >>
                                                >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                >> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                                >>
                                                >> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                                >> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                                >> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                                >> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                                >> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                                >of
                                                >> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                                >> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                                >> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                                >> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                                >>
                                                >> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                                >> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                                >those
                                                >> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                                >be
                                                >> discarded.
                                                >>
                                                >> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                                >> try again.
                                                >> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                >When
                                                >> did Emma leave the TS?
                                                >>
                                                >> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                                >> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                                >in
                                                >> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                                >> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                                >> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                                >> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                                >> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                                >> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                                >> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                                >>
                                                >> PB
                                                >>
                                                >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                >> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                                >> >
                                                >> > Dear Paulo,
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                                >> all,
                                                >> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                                >> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                                >HPB
                                                >> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                                >their
                                                >> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                                >> even
                                                >> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                                >HPB
                                                >> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                                >> them
                                                >> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                                >> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                >> On
                                                >> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                >> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                                >> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                >> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                                >are
                                                >> > closer to Daniel's.
                                                >> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                                >> as
                                                >> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                                >> >
                                                >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                >> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related>
                                                >&feature=related>
                                                >> &feature=related>
                                                >> > &feature=related
                                                >> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                                >> >
                                                >> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                                >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                >> >
                                                >> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                                >> depict
                                                >> > lies.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                                >> her
                                                >> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                                >> way,
                                                >> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                                >> if
                                                >> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                                >> > Lady.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although
                                                >I
                                                >> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                                >alpheus.org
                                                >> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                                >won
                                                >> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year
                                                >of
                                                >> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one
                                                >of
                                                >> > them had to say in 2006:
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >>
                                                >http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                                >> > m_2006.html
                                                >> >
                                                >> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                                >am
                                                >> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                                >> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                                >> Demarest.
                                                >> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                                >> truth"
                                                >> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                                >> page
                                                >> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                                >> >
                                                >> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                                >> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                                >> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                                >> "Adept"
                                                >> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                                >> against
                                                >> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                                >> >
                                                >> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                                >> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                                >gave
                                                >> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                                >far
                                                >> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                                >> the
                                                >> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                                >> >
                                                >> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                >> When
                                                >> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                >> >
                                                >> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                                >articles
                                                >> > written by Carrithers:
                                                >> >
                                                >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                                >> >
                                                >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                                >> >
                                                >> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                                >> >
                                                >> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                                >> >
                                                >> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                                >> popularization
                                                >> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                                >> men
                                                >> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                                >1975
                                                >> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                                >> about
                                                >> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                                >> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                                >Weiss'
                                                >> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                                >> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                                >> translation
                                                >> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                                >> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                                >> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                                >has
                                                >> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                                >> (and
                                                >> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                                >happened
                                                >> in
                                                >> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                                >they
                                                >> > are now.
                                                >> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                                >> TS
                                                >> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                                >literally,
                                                >> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                                >strategy,
                                                >> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                                >> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                                >> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                                >surely
                                                >> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                                >> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                                >> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                                >> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                                >> prefer
                                                >> > — has taken place. "
                                                >> >
                                                >> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                                >> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                                >> >
                                                >> > PB
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> > No virus found in this message.
                                                >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                >> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                                >01/21/12
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> >
                                                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >> >
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> No virus found in this message.
                                                >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                >> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >No virus found in this message.
                                                >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                >Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Govert Schuller
                                                Well, a skeptical hypothesis about how HPB’s teachings came into existence would be that she improvised teachings and phenomena as she needed them in certain
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                                  Well, a skeptical hypothesis about how HPB’s teachings came into existence would be that she improvised teachings and phenomena as she needed them in certain specific situations to keep her story going, to recruit influential writers, to explain previous mistakes, to stay in the light, to stay out of trouble. Something like that. In that view her teachings are intimately connected with her life story.



                                                  From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                                                  Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:49 PM
                                                  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov





                                                  What does a person's biography have to do with what they are teaching? Mommy dearest is quite different when mommy's side is available.

                                                  Cass

                                                  >________________________________
                                                  > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                                                  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 7:34 AM
                                                  >Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all
                                                  >books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion
                                                  >not to read Meade.
                                                  >
                                                  >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                                  >Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                  >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:51 PM
                                                  >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                                  >Aïvanhov
                                                  >
                                                  >Dear Govert,
                                                  >
                                                  >As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                                  >Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                                  >much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                                  >
                                                  >Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled
                                                  >across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about
                                                  >Meade's book.
                                                  >
                                                  >"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                                  >Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                                  >William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                                  >Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                                  >them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                                  >Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                                  >
                                                  >I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                                  >exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off
                                                  >the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified
                                                  >to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's
                                                  >statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen
                                                  >one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the
                                                  >titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And
                                                  >Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc.
                                                  >(1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about
                                                  >concerning Hartmann."
                                                  >
                                                  >D. Caldwell
                                                  >
                                                  >http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                                  >
                                                  >PB
                                                  >
                                                  >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                  >"Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Dear Paulo,
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                                  >> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                                  >that
                                                  >> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                                  >> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                                  >> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                                  >> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                                  >position.
                                                  >> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                                  >> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                                  >> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                                  >> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                  >On
                                                  >> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                  >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                                  >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                                  >and
                                                  >> Aïvanhov
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Dear Govert,
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                                  >> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                                  >done
                                                  >> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                                  >> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                                  >> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                                  >some
                                                  >> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                                  >> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                                  >> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                                  >or
                                                  >> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                                  >> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                                  >> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                                  >> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                                  >HPB
                                                  >> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                                  >because
                                                  >> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                                  >> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                                  >> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                                  >> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                                  >> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                                  >> authors have in their books:
                                                  >>
                                                  >> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                  >> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                                  >> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                                  >> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                                  >> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                                  >> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                                  >of
                                                  >> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                                  >> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                                  >> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                                  >> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                                  >> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                                  >those
                                                  >> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                                  >be
                                                  >> discarded.
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                                  >> try again.
                                                  >> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                  >When
                                                  >> did Emma leave the TS?
                                                  >>
                                                  >> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                                  >> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                                  >in
                                                  >> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                                  >> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                                  >> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                                  >> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                                  >> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                                  >> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                                  >> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                                  >>
                                                  >> PB
                                                  >>
                                                  >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                  >> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > Dear Paulo,
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                                  >> all,
                                                  >> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                                  >> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                                  >HPB
                                                  >> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                                  >their
                                                  >> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                                  >> even
                                                  >> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                                  >HPB
                                                  >> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                                  >> them
                                                  >> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                                  >> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                  >> On
                                                  >> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                  >> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                                  >> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  ><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                                  >are
                                                  >> > closer to Daniel's.
                                                  >> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                                  >> as
                                                  >> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                  >> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                  >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                  ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                                                  >&feature=related>
                                                  >> &feature=related>
                                                  >> > &feature=related
                                                  >> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                                  >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                                  >> depict
                                                  >> > lies.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                                  >> her
                                                  >> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                                  >> way,
                                                  >> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                                  >> if
                                                  >> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                                  >> > Lady.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although
                                                  >I
                                                  >> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                                  >alpheus.org
                                                  >> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                                  >won
                                                  >> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year
                                                  >of
                                                  >> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one
                                                  >of
                                                  >> > them had to say in 2006:
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >>
                                                  >http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                                  >> > m_2006.html
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                                  >am
                                                  >> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                                  >> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                                  >> Demarest.
                                                  >> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                                  >> truth"
                                                  >> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                                  >> page
                                                  >> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                                  >> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                                  >> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                                  >> "Adept"
                                                  >> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                                  >> against
                                                  >> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                                  >> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                                  >gave
                                                  >> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                                  >far
                                                  >> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                                  >> the
                                                  >> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                  >> When
                                                  >> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                                  >articles
                                                  >> > written by Carrithers:
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                                  >> popularization
                                                  >> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                                  >> men
                                                  >> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                                  >1975
                                                  >> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                                  >> about
                                                  >> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                                  >> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                                  >Weiss'
                                                  >> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                                  >> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                                  >> translation
                                                  >> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                                  >> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                                  >> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                                  >has
                                                  >> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                                  >> (and
                                                  >> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                                  >happened
                                                  >> in
                                                  >> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                                  >they
                                                  >> > are now.
                                                  >> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                                  >> TS
                                                  >> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                                  >literally,
                                                  >> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                                  >strategy,
                                                  >> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                                  >> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                                  >> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                                  >surely
                                                  >> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                                  >> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                                  >> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                                  >> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                                  >> prefer
                                                  >> > — has taken place. "
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                                  >> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > PB
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > No virus found in this message.
                                                  >> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                  >> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                                  >01/21/12
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> >
                                                  >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >> >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  >> No virus found in this message.
                                                  >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                                  >>
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                                                  >>
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                                                  >>
                                                  >
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                                                  >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                                • Govert Schuller
                                                  Yes, those reviews are almost all very interesting, but the fact that Cranston beats Meade in Amazon ratings is still not a sufficient reason not to read
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
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                                                    Yes, those reviews are almost all very interesting, but the fact that Cranston beats Meade in Amazon ratings is still not a sufficient reason not to read Meade.



                                                    From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                    Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 4:57 PM
                                                    To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov







                                                    Dear Govert,

                                                    If the ratings and reviews in amazon.com serve as criteria for evaluating quality it should be noted that Cranston's biography of HPB is rated with 5 stars (Meade's book only 4.5). I selected the following review but you can read other reviews here:

                                                    http://www.amazon.com/H-Extraordinary-Influence-Blavatsky-Theosophical/dp/0874777690/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8 <http://www.amazon.com/H-Extraordinary-Influence-Blavatsky-Theosophical/dp/0874777690/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1328480631&sr=8-3> &qid=1328480631&sr=8-3

                                                    4 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
                                                    5.0 out of 5 stars An inspiring tale of Helena Blavatsky; a friend of humanity., September 20, 1999
                                                    By A Customer
                                                    This review is from: H. P. B.: The Extraordinary Life & Influence of Helena Blavastsky (Paperback)
                                                    This is by far the best and most accurate biography of the mystic and altruist Blavatsky, that I have ever read! Judy Saltzman, PhD, Professor of Philosophy, has it right when she writes: "This book is the definitive contemporary biography of the `Mother' of the ideas that began the New Age Movement."

                                                    As I have stated before, my favorite HPB biography was written by Jean Overton Fuller. It is rated with 5 stars too, and I have selected this review:

                                                    "This book is a brilliant biography of that controversial figure Helena Blavatsky. Very much essential reading if one wants to get a balanced account of her life. There is no doubt that Jean Overton Fuller is pro-Blavatsky, but she does not in any way overlook the controversies and manages to put the criticism in context without ignoring it. Not only that, but I found the depiction of her early life quite fascinating. I had often wondered how a young woman could go around the East without being molested. Fact is she was on occasion, but she carried a gun and was prepared to use it !!! What a woman ! What a life ! And by the end of the book I was personally convinced that she was not in any way the fraud she is sometimes made out to be. Rather, a very gifted woman with a specific purpose in life. Entertaining as well as educational reading and highly recommended."

                                                    You say "all books have factual errors". Is anyone willing to count how many of these errors can be found in the works of Cranston and Meade?

                                                    PB

                                                    --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> , "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Amazon has a paperback version for sale for $15.99.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > This is an Amazon review with some quotes about HPB from Meade:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > I always thought about H.P.B. as a talented mystifyer: her fixed, exoftalmic gaze from photographs, her hypomaniac behaviour, the episodes of auditory and visual hallucinations, and the obvious similarity of the portraits of her "Masters" with the Renaissence iconography of the Christ, all pointed to this conclusión.
                                                    > Somewhat hagiographic works as "H.P.B., the extraordinary life and influence of Helena Blavatsky" (by Sylvia Cranston, Ed. Tarcher-Putnam, 1993), or "Helena Petrovna Blavatsky e la Societá Teosofica" (by Paola Giovetti,Edizioni Mediterranee, Roma, 1991) helped me scarcely to the intímate knowledge of this character.
                                                    > Only after reading this superbly documented and written biography, the personality of HPB was properly drawn, with all its lights and shadows, absolutely humanized. As the author, Marion Mead says in the preface of the book: "When I embarked on this biography, I believed it necessary to decide whether she was truly a great person or not, one that I liked or did not. Before my research had progressed very far, it became clear that such an approach was doomed to fail. Like most people, H.P.B., as she was called, was a mixture of greatness and weakness. Only in that light is an appraisal possible. Regrettably, elements of her character are difficult to admire. But after careful study we can understand why she behaved as she did and can even sympathize without condoning her actions. At the same time, she possessed a genuine daring and a vastness of body and soul that compels admiration. In every way, she was an inmense person. She weighed more than other people, ate more, smoked more, swore more, and visualized heaven and earth in terms that dwarfed any previous conception..."
                                                    > In my opinion this biography is the best available work on the curious existence of Madame Blavatsky and his companion the "colonel" Henry Olcott. Absolutely essential on the subject.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of MKR
                                                    > Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 11:34 AM
                                                    > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Is Meade's book available as a pdf file?
                                                    >
                                                    > On Sat, Feb 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller@...%20%3cmailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > **
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dear Paulo,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither’s rhetoric. He
                                                    > > makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression that
                                                    > > the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                                    > > vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                                    > > lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                                    > > HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                                    > > position.
                                                    > > She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                                    > > also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                                    > > fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                                    > > Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                                    > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                    > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                                    > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                                    > > and
                                                    > > Aïvanhov
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dear Govert,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                                    > > Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had done
                                                    > > just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                                    > > without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                                    > > biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                                    > > some
                                                    > > theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                                    > > some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                                    > > preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                                    > > or
                                                    > > "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                                    > > real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                                    > > scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                                    > > incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                                    > > HPB
                                                    > > biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                                    > > because
                                                    > > some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                                    > > work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                                    > > interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                                    > > suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                                    > > In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                                    > > authors have in their books:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                    > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                                    > > of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                                    > > I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                                    > > Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                                    > > satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                                    > > of
                                                    > > course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                                    > > to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                                    > > achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                                    > > teachings that she brought to the world.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                                    > > wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                                    > > those
                                                    > > who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                                    > > be
                                                    > > discarded.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                                    > > try again.
                                                    > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                    > > When
                                                    > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                                    > > concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                                    > > in
                                                    > > some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                                    > > astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                                    > > if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                                    > > connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                                    > > to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                                    > > connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                                    > > your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                                    > >
                                                    > > PB
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Dear Paulo,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                                    > > all,
                                                    > > > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                                    > > > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                                    > > HPB
                                                    > > > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                                    > > their
                                                    > > > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                                    > > even
                                                    > > > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the HPB
                                                    > > > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                                    > > them
                                                    > > > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                                    > > > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                    > >
                                                    > > On
                                                    > > > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                    > > > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                                    > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her are
                                                    > > > closer to Daniel's.
                                                    > > > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                                    > > as
                                                    > > > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                    > > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                    > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related>
                                                    > >
                                                    > > &feature=related>
                                                    > > > &feature=related
                                                    > > > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                                    > > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                                    > > depict
                                                    > > > lies.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                                    > > her
                                                    > > > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                                    > > way,
                                                    > > > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                                    > > if
                                                    > > > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                                    > > > Lady.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although I
                                                    > > > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                                    > > alpheus.org
                                                    > > > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She won
                                                    > > > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year of
                                                    > > > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one of
                                                    > > > them had to say in 2006:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                                    > > > m_2006.html
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                                    > > am
                                                    > > > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                                    > > > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                                    > > Demarest.
                                                    > > > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                                    > > truth"
                                                    > > > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                                    > > page
                                                    > > > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                                    > > > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                                    > > > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                                    > > "Adept"
                                                    > > > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                                    > > against
                                                    > > > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                                    > > > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten, gave
                                                    > > > much of the information contained in the book]â€" and saying this, I say
                                                    > > far
                                                    > > > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                                    > > the
                                                    > > > last several years â€" that is her own business."
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                    > > When
                                                    > > > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                                    > > articles
                                                    > > > written by Carrithers:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                                    > > popularization
                                                    > > > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                                    > > men
                                                    > > > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in 1975
                                                    > > > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                                    > > about
                                                    > > > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                                    > > > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                                    > > Weiss'
                                                    > > > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                                    > > > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                                    > > translation
                                                    > > > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                                    > > > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                                    > > > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies has
                                                    > > > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                                    > > (and
                                                    > > > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that happened
                                                    > > in
                                                    > > > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                                    > > they
                                                    > > > are now.
                                                    > > > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                                    > > TS
                                                    > > > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                                    > > literally,
                                                    > > > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of strategy,
                                                    > > > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                                    > > > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                                    > > > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death surely
                                                    > > > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                                    > > > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Blavatsky's words were:
                                                    > > > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                                    > > > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality â€" or call it mysticism if you
                                                    > > prefer
                                                    > > > â€" has taken place. "
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                                    > > > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > PB
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > >
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                                                  • Cass Silva
                                                    Her teaching on Rig Veda, Upanishads, et all, were impoverished by her western translations?  Are you saying that she mistranslated these teachings?  As far
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 6, 2012
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                                                      Her teaching on Rig Veda, Upanishads, et all, were impoverished by her western translations?  Are you saying that she mistranslated these teachings?  As far as her phenomena - wasn't she introduced to the world at a time when Spiritualism was becoming the new religion and would have had to establish herself as a psychic?  But I take your point, probably would have been a better idea, in hindsight, to leave that side of her in the closet!   Perhaps it was a case of 'when in Rome'.
                                                      Cass



                                                      >________________________________
                                                      > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@...>
                                                      >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 6:26 PM
                                                      >Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      >Well, a skeptical hypothesis about how HPB’s teachings came into existence would be that she improvised teachings and phenomena as she needed them in certain specific situations to keep her story going, to recruit influential writers, to explain previous mistakes, to stay in the light, to stay out of trouble. Something like that. In that view her teachings are intimately connected with her life story.
                                                      >
                                                      >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                                                      >Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:49 PM
                                                      >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                      >
                                                      >What does a person's biography have to do with what they are teaching? Mommy dearest is quite different when mommy's side is available.
                                                      >
                                                      >Cass
                                                      >
                                                      >>________________________________
                                                      >> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                                                      >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >>Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 7:34 AM
                                                      >>Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >>That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all
                                                      >>books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion
                                                      >>not to read Meade.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                                      >>Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                      >>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:51 PM
                                                      >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >>Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                                      >>Aïvanhov
                                                      >>
                                                      >>Dear Govert,
                                                      >>
                                                      >>As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                                      >>Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                                      >>much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled
                                                      >>across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about
                                                      >>Meade's book.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                                      >>Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                                      >>William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                                      >>Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                                      >>them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                                      >>Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                                      >>exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off
                                                      >>the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified
                                                      >>to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's
                                                      >>statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen
                                                      >>one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the
                                                      >>titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And
                                                      >>Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc.
                                                      >>(1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about
                                                      >>concerning Hartmann."
                                                      >>
                                                      >>D. Caldwell
                                                      >>
                                                      >>http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                                      >>
                                                      >>PB
                                                      >>
                                                      >>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                      >>"Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> Dear Paulo,
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                                      >>> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                                      >>that
                                                      >>> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                                      >>> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                                      >>> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                                      >>> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                                      >>position.
                                                      >>> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                                      >>> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                                      >>> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                                      >>> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >>[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                      >>On
                                                      >>> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                      >>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                                      >>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >>> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                                      >>and
                                                      >>> Aïvanhov
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> Dear Govert,
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                                      >>> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                                      >>done
                                                      >>> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                                      >>> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                                      >>> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                                      >>some
                                                      >>> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                                      >>> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                                      >>> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                                      >>or
                                                      >>> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                                      >>> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                                      >>> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                                      >>> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                                      >>HPB
                                                      >>> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                                      >>because
                                                      >>> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                                      >>> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                                      >>> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                                      >>> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                                      >>> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                                      >>> authors have in their books:
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                      >>> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                                      >>> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                                      >>> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                                      >>> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                                      >>> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                                      >>of
                                                      >>> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                                      >>> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                                      >>> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                                      >>> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                                      >>> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                                      >>those
                                                      >>> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                                      >>be
                                                      >>> discarded.
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                                      >>> try again.
                                                      >>> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                      >>When
                                                      >>> did Emma leave the TS?
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                                      >>> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                                      >>in
                                                      >>> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                                      >>> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                                      >>> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                                      >>> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                                      >>> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                                      >>> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                                      >>> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> PB
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                      >>> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > Dear Paulo,
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                                      >>> all,
                                                      >>> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                                      >>> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                                      >>HPB
                                                      >>> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                                      >>their
                                                      >>> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                                      >>> even
                                                      >>> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                                      >>HPB
                                                      >>> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                                      >>> them
                                                      >>> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                                      >>> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >>> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                      >>> On
                                                      >>> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                      >>> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                                      >>> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >>> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                                      >>are
                                                      >>> > closer to Daniel's.
                                                      >>> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                                      >>> as
                                                      >>> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                      >>> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                      >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                      >><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related>
                                                      >>&feature=related>
                                                      >>> &feature=related>
                                                      >>> > &feature=related
                                                      >>> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                                      >>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                                      >>> depict
                                                      >>> > lies.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                                      >>> her
                                                      >>> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                                      >>> way,
                                                      >>> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                                      >>> if
                                                      >>> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                                      >>> > Lady.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although
                                                      >>I
                                                      >>> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                                      >>alpheus.org
                                                      >>> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                                      >>won
                                                      >>> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year
                                                      >>of
                                                      >>> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one
                                                      >>of
                                                      >>> > them had to say in 2006:
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>>
                                                      >>http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                                      >>> > m_2006.html
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                                      >>am
                                                      >>> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                                      >>> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                                      >>> Demarest.
                                                      >>> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                                      >>> truth"
                                                      >>> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                                      >>> page
                                                      >>> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                                      >>> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                                      >>> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                                      >>> "Adept"
                                                      >>> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                                      >>> against
                                                      >>> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                                      >>> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                                      >>gave
                                                      >>> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                                      >>far
                                                      >>> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                                      >>> the
                                                      >>> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                      >>> When
                                                      >>> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                                      >>articles
                                                      >>> > written by Carrithers:
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                                      >>> popularization
                                                      >>> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                                      >>> men
                                                      >>> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                                      >>1975
                                                      >>> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                                      >>> about
                                                      >>> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                                      >>> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                                      >>Weiss'
                                                      >>> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                                      >>> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                                      >>> translation
                                                      >>> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                                      >>> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                                      >>> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                                      >>has
                                                      >>> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                                      >>> (and
                                                      >>> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                                      >>happened
                                                      >>> in
                                                      >>> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                                      >>they
                                                      >>> > are now.
                                                      >>> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                                      >>> TS
                                                      >>> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                                      >>literally,
                                                      >>> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                                      >>strategy,
                                                      >>> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                                      >>> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                                      >>> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                                      >>surely
                                                      >>> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                                      >>> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                                      >>> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                                      >>> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                                      >>> prefer
                                                      >>> > — has taken place. "
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                                      >>> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > PB
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> > No virus found in this message.
                                                      >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                      >>> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                                      >>01/21/12
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
                                                      >>> >
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                                                      >>> >
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                                                      >>
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                                                      >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                                                    • Govert Schuller
                                                      Sorry, read again: I wrote “improvised”, not “impoverished.” I’m not enough an expert to assess whether she enriched, or not, Indian philosophy with
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 6, 2012
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                                                        Sorry, read again: I wrote “improvised”, not “impoverished.”



                                                        I’m not enough an expert to assess whether she enriched, or not, Indian philosophy with her translations, interpretations and additions.



                                                        A couple of years ago I did point out her misunderstanding of the great Western philosopher Immanuel Kant, about whose philosophy I’m somewhat knowledgeable. It could become another case study to see how HPB made erroneous claims.



                                                        See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/51281





                                                        From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                                                        Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:54 PM
                                                        To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov





                                                        Her teaching on Rig Veda, Upanishads, et all, were impoverished by her western translations? Are you saying that she mistranslated these teachings? As far as her phenomena - wasn't she introduced to the world at a time when Spiritualism was becoming the new religion and would have had to establish herself as a psychic? But I take your point, probably would have been a better idea, in hindsight, to leave that side of her in the closet! Perhaps it was a case of 'when in Rome'.
                                                        Cass

                                                        >________________________________
                                                        > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                                                        >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 6:26 PM
                                                        >Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >Well, a skeptical hypothesis about how HPB’s teachings came into existence would be that she improvised teachings and phenomena as she needed them in certain specific situations to keep her story going, to recruit influential writers, to explain previous mistakes, to stay in the light, to stay out of trouble. Something like that. In that view her teachings are intimately connected with her life story.
                                                        >
                                                        >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                                                        >Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:49 PM
                                                        >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                        >
                                                        >What does a person's biography have to do with what they are teaching? Mommy dearest is quite different when mommy's side is available.
                                                        >
                                                        >Cass
                                                        >
                                                        >>________________________________
                                                        >> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                                                        >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >>Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 7:34 AM
                                                        >>Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all
                                                        >>books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion
                                                        >>not to read Meade.
                                                        >>
                                                        >>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                                        >>Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                        >>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:51 PM
                                                        >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >>Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                                        >>Aïvanhov
                                                        >>
                                                        >>Dear Govert,
                                                        >>
                                                        >>As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                                        >>Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                                        >>much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                                        >>
                                                        >>Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled
                                                        >>across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about
                                                        >>Meade's book.
                                                        >>
                                                        >>"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                                        >>Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                                        >>William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                                        >>Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                                        >>them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                                        >>Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                                        >>
                                                        >>I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                                        >>exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off
                                                        >>the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified
                                                        >>to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's
                                                        >>statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen
                                                        >>one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the
                                                        >>titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And
                                                        >>Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc.
                                                        >>(1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about
                                                        >>concerning Hartmann."
                                                        >>
                                                        >>D. Caldwell
                                                        >>
                                                        >>http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                                        >>
                                                        >>PB
                                                        >>
                                                        >>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                        >>"Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> Dear Paulo,
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                                        >>> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                                        >>that
                                                        >>> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                                        >>> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                                        >>> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                                        >>> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                                        >>position.
                                                        >>> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                                        >>> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                                        >>> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                                        >>> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >>[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                        >>On
                                                        >>> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                        >>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                                        >>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >>> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                                        >>and
                                                        >>> Aïvanhov
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> Dear Govert,
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                                        >>> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                                        >>done
                                                        >>> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                                        >>> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                                        >>> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                                        >>some
                                                        >>> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                                        >>> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                                        >>> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                                        >>or
                                                        >>> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                                        >>> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                                        >>> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                                        >>> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                                        >>HPB
                                                        >>> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                                        >>because
                                                        >>> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                                        >>> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                                        >>> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                                        >>> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                                        >>> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                                        >>> authors have in their books:
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                        >>> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                                        >>> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                                        >>> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                                        >>> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                                        >>> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                                        >>of
                                                        >>> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                                        >>> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                                        >>> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                                        >>> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                                        >>> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                                        >>those
                                                        >>> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                                        >>be
                                                        >>> discarded.
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                                        >>> try again.
                                                        >>> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                        >>When
                                                        >>> did Emma leave the TS?
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                                        >>> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                                        >>in
                                                        >>> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                                        >>> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                                        >>> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                                        >>> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                                        >>> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                                        >>> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                                        >>> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> PB
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                        >>> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > Dear Paulo,
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                                        >>> all,
                                                        >>> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                                        >>> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                                        >>HPB
                                                        >>> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                                        >>their
                                                        >>> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                                        >>> even
                                                        >>> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                                        >>HPB
                                                        >>> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                                        >>> them
                                                        >>> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                                        >>> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >>> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                        >>> On
                                                        >>> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                        >>> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                                        >>> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                        >>> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                                        >>are
                                                        >>> > closer to Daniel's.
                                                        >>> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                                        >>> as
                                                        >>> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                        >>> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                        >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                        >><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related>
                                                        >>&feature=related>
                                                        >>> &feature=related>
                                                        >>> > &feature=related
                                                        >>> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                                        >>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                                        >>> depict
                                                        >>> > lies.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                                        >>> her
                                                        >>> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                                        >>> way,
                                                        >>> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                                        >>> if
                                                        >>> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                                        >>> > Lady.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although
                                                        >>I
                                                        >>> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                                        >>alpheus.org
                                                        >>> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                                        >>won
                                                        >>> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year
                                                        >>of
                                                        >>> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one
                                                        >>of
                                                        >>> > them had to say in 2006:
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                                        >>> > m_2006.html
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                                        >>am
                                                        >>> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                                        >>> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                                        >>> Demarest.
                                                        >>> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                                        >>> truth"
                                                        >>> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                                        >>> page
                                                        >>> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                                        >>> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                                        >>> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                                        >>> "Adept"
                                                        >>> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                                        >>> against
                                                        >>> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                                        >>> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                                        >>gave
                                                        >>> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                                        >>far
                                                        >>> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                                        >>> the
                                                        >>> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                        >>> When
                                                        >>> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                                        >>articles
                                                        >>> > written by Carrithers:
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                                        >>> popularization
                                                        >>> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                                        >>> men
                                                        >>> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                                        >>1975
                                                        >>> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                                        >>> about
                                                        >>> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                                        >>> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                                        >>Weiss'
                                                        >>> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                                        >>> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                                        >>> translation
                                                        >>> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                                        >>> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                                        >>> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                                        >>has
                                                        >>> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                                        >>> (and
                                                        >>> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                                        >>happened
                                                        >>> in
                                                        >>> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                                        >>they
                                                        >>> > are now.
                                                        >>> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                                        >>> TS
                                                        >>> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                                        >>literally,
                                                        >>> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                                        >>strategy,
                                                        >>> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                                        >>> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                                        >>> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                                        >>surely
                                                        >>> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                                        >>> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                                        >>> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                                        >>> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                                        >>> prefer
                                                        >>> > — has taken place. "
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                                        >>> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > PB
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > No virus found in this message.
                                                        >>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        >>> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                                        >>01/21/12
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >>> >
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> No virus found in this message.
                                                        >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        >>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >>>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>No virus found in this message.
                                                        >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        >>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
                                                        >>
                                                        >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >>
                                                        >
                                                        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >
                                                        >No virus found in this message.
                                                        >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        >Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4791 - Release Date: 02/05/12
                                                        >
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                                                        >
                                                        >

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                        No virus found in this message.
                                                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                        Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4792 - Release Date: 02/06/12



                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Cass Silva
                                                        My apologies, how able to improvise without being able to read the texts? Cass ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Feb 6, 2012
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                                                          My apologies, how able to improvise without being able to read the texts?
                                                          Cass



                                                          >________________________________
                                                          > From: Govert Schuller <schuller@...>
                                                          >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2012 11:36 AM
                                                          >Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                          >
                                                          >

                                                          >Sorry, read again: I wrote “improvised”, not “impoverished.”
                                                          >
                                                          >I’m not enough an expert to assess whether she enriched, or not, Indian philosophy with her translations, interpretations and additions.
                                                          >
                                                          >A couple of years ago I did point out her misunderstanding of the great Western philosopher Immanuel Kant, about whose philosophy I’m somewhat knowledgeable. It could become another case study to see how HPB made erroneous claims.
                                                          >
                                                          >See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/51281
                                                          >
                                                          >From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                                                          >Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 5:54 PM
                                                          >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                          >
                                                          >Her teaching on Rig Veda, Upanishads, et all, were impoverished by her western translations? Are you saying that she mistranslated these teachings? As far as her phenomena - wasn't she introduced to the world at a time when Spiritualism was becoming the new religion and would have had to establish herself as a psychic? But I take your point, probably would have been a better idea, in hindsight, to leave that side of her in the closet! Perhaps it was a case of 'when in Rome'.
                                                          >Cass
                                                          >
                                                          >>________________________________
                                                          >> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                                                          >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 6:26 PM
                                                          >>Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>Well, a skeptical hypothesis about how HPB’s teachings came into existence would be that she improvised teachings and phenomena as she needed them in certain specific situations to keep her story going, to recruit influential writers, to explain previous mistakes, to stay in the light, to stay out of trouble. Something like that. In that view her teachings are intimately connected with her life story.
                                                          >>
                                                          >>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
                                                          >>Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 5:49 PM
                                                          >>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                          >>
                                                          >>What does a person's biography have to do with what they are teaching? Mommy dearest is quite different when mommy's side is available.
                                                          >>
                                                          >>Cass
                                                          >>
                                                          >>>________________________________
                                                          >>> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@... <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> <mailto:schuller%40alpheus.org> >
                                                          >>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>>Sent: Monday, 6 February 2012 7:34 AM
                                                          >>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and Aïvanhov
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>That’s fine with me, as long as you know it’s an opinion. Meanwhile all
                                                          >>>books have factual errors, HPB’s included, so that shouldn’t be a criterion
                                                          >>>not to read Meade.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                                          >>>Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                          >>>Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2012 1:51 PM
                                                          >>>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>>Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten and
                                                          >>>Aïvanhov
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>Dear Govert,
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>As I said before, I am satisfied with my present opinion about HPB.
                                                          >>>Currently, I am more concerned with grasping theosophical concepts, not so
                                                          >>>much with the evaluation of personalities.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>Besides, it is hard to spend money in a book with factual errors. I stumbled
                                                          >>>across the following excerpt just now, while trying to find a bit more about
                                                          >>>Meade's book.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>"In all, about nine or ten persons testified to having seen the Mahatmas:
                                                          >>>Annie Besant, Henry Olcott, Damodar Mavalankar, Isabel Cooper-Oakley,
                                                          >>>William Brown, Nadyezhda Fadeyev, S.R. Ramaswamier, Justine Glinka and
                                                          >>>Vsevolod Solovyov. Franz Hartmann said that while he never actually saw
                                                          >>>them, he felt their presence." Marion Meade in her biography Madame
                                                          >>>Blavatsky, The Woman Behind The Myth, 1980, p. 497.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>I remember reading this statement by Meade some fifteen years ago and
                                                          >>>exclaiming to myself, "Oh Marion Meade, you haven't done your homework!" Off
                                                          >>>the top of my head, I could count at least twenty-five people who testified
                                                          >>>to having seen the Mahatmas during H.P.B.'s lifetime. And despite Meade's
                                                          >>>statement to the contrary, Hartmann had testified that he had actually seen
                                                          >>>one of the Mahatmas. Apparently Meade had never carefully read two of the
                                                          >>>titles listed in her own bibliography: Geoffrey Barborka's The Mahatmas And
                                                          >>>Their Letters (1973) and Franz Hartmann's Report Of Observations, etc.
                                                          >>>(1884); both titles prove Meade didn't know what she was writing about
                                                          >>>concerning Hartmann."
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>D. Caldwell
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>http://www.blavatsky.net/gen/refute/caldwell/johnson2.htm
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>PB
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                          >>>"Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> Dear Paulo,
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> I think you might be too negatively influenced by Carrither's rhetoric. He
                                                          >>>> makes good points, but also less good points, and gives the impression
                                                          >>>that
                                                          >>>> the books in question are worthless and that therefore HPB stands
                                                          >>>> vindicated. I do not agree. Meade and Williams also make good points, and
                                                          >>>> lesser points, and are indeed quite straightforward in their disbelief of
                                                          >>>> HPB. Meade does not proceed from an axiomatically held materialist
                                                          >>>position.
                                                          >>>> She acknowledges that there were psychic phenomena connected with HPB but
                                                          >>>> also thinks there was enough trickery by HPB to conclude that she was a
                                                          >>>> fraud. I think every Theosophist should read the Meade book (and then the
                                                          >>>> Carrithers review) to make up their own mind.
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>>[mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                          >>>On
                                                          >>>> Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                          >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:06 PM
                                                          >>>> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>>> Subject: theos-talk Re: Reply to Govert and questions about Emma Britten
                                                          >>>and
                                                          >>>> Aïvanhov
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> Dear Govert,
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> I understand your approach and I would have liked that Meade, Peter
                                                          >>>> Washington and others, who have portrayed a negative image of HPB, had
                                                          >>>done
                                                          >>>> just that, a comparison of the favorable and the unfavorable views, but
                                                          >>>> without preconceptions. I have never read Meade, Williams or Washington's
                                                          >>>> biographies of Blavatsky, but I am familiar with the replies written by
                                                          >>>some
                                                          >>>> theosophists. It still surprises me how difficult it seems to be (even for
                                                          >>>> some who are scholars) to analyze a certain subject without some
                                                          >>>> preconceptions like "Psychic phenomena does not exist so HPB was a fraud"
                                                          >>>or
                                                          >>>> "The existence of Mahatmas with strange powers is something that cannot be
                                                          >>>> real, so they are a product of her imagination". That's not a very
                                                          >>>> scientific approach and even for a journalist those assumptions are
                                                          >>>> incorrect starting points. The number of inaccuracies in the unfavorable
                                                          >>>HPB
                                                          >>>> biographies is very high (dates, places, etc…) and this only happens
                                                          >>>because
                                                          >>>> some of those authors were not primarily concerned in producing a rigorous
                                                          >>>> work. They prefer to simply give their personal views, based on
                                                          >>>> interpretations (sometimes distorted) of pre-selected events that can
                                                          >>>> suggest that their preconceived ideas are correct.
                                                          >>>> In the links below you can see examples of the kind of mistakes that these
                                                          >>>> authors have in their books:
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                          >>>> http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/baboon.htm
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> I am not interested in wasting my time reading books that follow this line
                                                          >>>> of thought, that's why I made that remark about Meade's book.
                                                          >>>> I read some biographic accounts concerning HPB (Cranston, Overton Fuller,
                                                          >>>> Olcott, Cleather, Goodrick-Clarke, Neff, Wachtmeister, Kingsland) and I'm
                                                          >>>> satisfied with my current perspective of who she was. HPB was not perfect
                                                          >>>of
                                                          >>>> course, but people seem to prefer focusing on her faults instead of trying
                                                          >>>> to understand some of her actions and the conditions she had to face to
                                                          >>>> achieve her goal. Most important of all, they forget about the message and
                                                          >>>> teachings that she brought to the world.
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> I think that a definitive biography has not been made yet, and if someone
                                                          >>>> wants to take that enterprise, of course he/she has to take in account
                                                          >>>those
                                                          >>>> who were against her. All possibilities must be considered, but lies must
                                                          >>>be
                                                          >>>> discarded.
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> I think that I got no answer to my questions about Emma Britten, so I will
                                                          >>>> try again.
                                                          >>>> Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                          >>>When
                                                          >>>> did Emma leave the TS?
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> I would also like to get some opinions from the members of theos-talk
                                                          >>>> concerning Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov. He is rather popular here in Portugal
                                                          >>>in
                                                          >>>> some circles (for example amongst some of the teachers of Lisbon's biggest
                                                          >>>> astrology school) and it seems that the same happens in France. Don´t know
                                                          >>>> if the same applies to the English-speaking world. Is he in some way
                                                          >>>> connected to theosophy? His master, Peter Deunov used a lexicon that seems
                                                          >>>> to have something in common with theosophy. Deunov also had some sort of
                                                          >>>> connection with K, after the end of Order of the Star of the East. What is
                                                          >>>> your opinion about Aïvanhov?
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> PB
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                                          >>>> "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > Dear Paulo,
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > You bring up a lot of interesting issues. Though I can't deal with them
                                                          >>>> all,
                                                          >>>> > I only like to suggest that two negatives don't make a positive in this
                                                          >>>> > investigation of HPB. The criticisms by HPB apologists of the works by
                                                          >>>HPB
                                                          >>>> > skeptics do not amount automatically to a vindication of HPB. Though
                                                          >>>their
                                                          >>>> > methodologies might be faulty, they still might be right. Besides that,
                                                          >>>> even
                                                          >>>> > Daniel admits that one can learn a lot, though with caution, from the
                                                          >>>HPB
                                                          >>>> > biographies by Meade and Williams. As a Theosophist one might not find
                                                          >>>> them
                                                          >>>> > palatable, they're still important to read, even if only to get familiar
                                                          >>>> > with what's out there fundamentally critiquing HPB.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>>> [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                                                          >>>> On
                                                          >>>> > Behalf Of paulobaptista_v
                                                          >>>> > Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 2:35 PM
                                                          >>>> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>><mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                          >>>> > Subject: theos-talk About Emma Britten and the torch-bearer of truth
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > Thank you Govert for all you wrote about K.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > I do not agree with your perspective on Blavatsky. My ideas about her
                                                          >>>are
                                                          >>>> > closer to Daniel's.
                                                          >>>> > I was appalled to see Marion Meade's biography about Blavatsky mentioned
                                                          >>>> as
                                                          >>>> > a good book, when her statements on this video
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                          >>>> > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                          >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug
                                                          >>><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThc0c1WIug&feature=related> &feature=related> &feature=related>
                                                          >>>&feature=related>
                                                          >>>> &feature=related>
                                                          >>>> > &feature=related
                                                          >>>> > (check also parts 1, 3 and 4)
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > confirm the warnings made by Carrithers
                                                          >>>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/abstractionfromtbf.htm
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > I see no use in reading a book based on older books that are known to
                                                          >>>> depict
                                                          >>>> > lies.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > For me, the most interesting biography about Blavatsky is "Blavatsky and
                                                          >>>> her
                                                          >>>> > teachers", by Jean Overton Fuller. Although not a biography in a strict
                                                          >>>> way,
                                                          >>>> > Daniel's "The Esoteric World of Mme Blavatsky" is also extremely helpful
                                                          >>>> if
                                                          >>>> > you want to know the arguments of those who were for and against the Old
                                                          >>>> > Lady.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > I don´t have a good impression about Elizabeth Claire Prophet, although
                                                          >>>I
                                                          >>>> > admit I do not have enough information on her. I know that in
                                                          >>>alpheus.org
                                                          >>>> > there are some articles about Prophet, and I intend to read them. She
                                                          >>>won
                                                          >>>> > the Ig Nobel prize in 2011 for predicting the end of world in the year
                                                          >>>of
                                                          >>>> > 1990 and some of her sons have strongly criticized her. Check what one
                                                          >>>of
                                                          >>>> > them had to say in 2006:
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>http://www.blacksunjournal.com/elizabeth-clare-prophet/150_happy-birthday-mo
                                                          >>>> > m_2006.html
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > In a previous post someone mentioned Emma Hardinge Britten. As far as I
                                                          >>>am
                                                          >>>> > aware, Emma Britten was one of the first members of the TS. In 1876 she
                                                          >>>> > published "Art Magic", a book which was recently re-edited by Marc
                                                          >>>> Demarest.
                                                          >>>> > Yesterday I was searching for that passage about the "torch-bearer of
                                                          >>>> truth"
                                                          >>>> > in the Portuguese version of the "Key to Theosophy" and in the previous
                                                          >>>> page
                                                          >>>> > I found strong criticism by Blavatsky about "Art Magic".
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > She wrote: "The cycle of "Adepts," used as sledge-hammers to break the
                                                          >>>> > theosophical heads with, began twelve years ago, with Mrs. Emma Hardinge
                                                          >>>> > Britten's "Louis" of Art Magic and Ghost-Land, and now ends with the
                                                          >>>> "Adept"
                                                          >>>> > and "Author" of The Light of Egypt, a work written by Spiritualists
                                                          >>>> against
                                                          >>>> > Theosophy and its teachings."
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > "The spiritualistic author of Art Magic, etc., may or may not have been
                                                          >>>> > acquainted with such an Adept [Louis, who according to Emma Britten,
                                                          >>>gave
                                                          >>>> > much of the information contained in the book]— and saying this, I say
                                                          >>>far
                                                          >>>> > less than what that lady has said and written about us and Theosophy for
                                                          >>>> the
                                                          >>>> > last several years — that is her own business."
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > Blavatsky and Emma became enemies right after the release of Art Magic?
                                                          >>>> When
                                                          >>>> > did Emma leave the TS?
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > About the 20th century "torch bearer of truth", I found these two
                                                          >>>articles
                                                          >>>> > written by Carrithers:
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/torch.pdf
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > http://blavatskyfoundation.org/hasdamodarreturned.pdf
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > and also this one published in the Winter of 2008 in Fohat
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=298
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > which are of some interest, concerning this subject.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > When we look to the last quarter of the 20th century we see a
                                                          >>>> popularization
                                                          >>>> > of the concepts of karma and reincarnation, mainly through the hands of
                                                          >>>> men
                                                          >>>> > of science. We have Raymond Moody Jr's "Life after Life" released in
                                                          >>>1975
                                                          >>>> > about NDEs. In 1977, the first academic article by prof. Ian Stevenson
                                                          >>>> about
                                                          >>>> > reincarnation was accepted by a medical journal (his work gave strong
                                                          >>>> > support to the advocates of reincarnation). We could even add Brian
                                                          >>>Weiss'
                                                          >>>> > books about past lives, the first being published in 1988. Buddhist
                                                          >>>> > teachings spread widely in the West during the 1975-2000 period.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > In astrology, we had the resurge of ancient techniques, with the
                                                          >>>> translation
                                                          >>>> > of valuable old books by astrologers like Robert Hand, Robert Zoller and
                                                          >>>> > Robert Schmidt, all of them with an extensive knowledge of Greek or/and
                                                          >>>> > Latin. This had a tremendous impact in the Art.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > It is quite clear for me that the common man of our Western societies
                                                          >>>has
                                                          >>>> > heard a lot about karma and reincarnation in the last 35 years. Movies
                                                          >>>> (and
                                                          >>>> > even soap operas) used them as plot devices. Despite of all that
                                                          >>>happened
                                                          >>>> in
                                                          >>>> > the 60's I guess that those concepts were not that popular in 1975 as
                                                          >>>they
                                                          >>>> > are now.
                                                          >>>> > There was not an intervention of a "torch- bearer of truth", nor did the
                                                          >>>> TS
                                                          >>>> > had an important role in the 1975-2000 period. Taking HPB words
                                                          >>>literally,
                                                          >>>> > we can hypothesize that the course of events led to a change of
                                                          >>>strategy,
                                                          >>>> > and the option was to popularize two core concepts, benefiting from the
                                                          >>>> > visibility and credibility that men of science have. Of course we could
                                                          >>>> > discuss some of their methods, especially in the case of Brian Weiss.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > I am sure that all that happened in the TS after Blavatsky's death
                                                          >>>surely
                                                          >>>> > impeded the TS of being the body that could continue the work of its
                                                          >>>> > Founders. I certainly agree with Carrithers and Redfern on this.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > Blavatsky's words were:
                                                          >>>> > "Towards the close of each century you will invariably find that an
                                                          >>>> > outpouring or upheaval of spirituality — or call it mysticism if you
                                                          >>>> prefer
                                                          >>>> > — has taken place. "
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > And the question that has to be asked is if this happened in the last
                                                          >>>> > quarter of the 20th century or not. In my opinion, yes, it has.
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > PB
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > No virus found in this message.
                                                          >>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          >>>> > Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4757 - Release Date:
                                                          >>>01/21/12
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >>>> >
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> No virus found in this message.
                                                          >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          >>>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4781 - Release Date: 02/02/12
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>No virus found in this message.
                                                          >>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          >>>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4790 - Release Date: 02/05/12
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >>
                                                          >>No virus found in this message.
                                                          >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                                          >>Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2112/4791 - Release Date: 02/05/12
                                                          >>
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                                                          >>
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                                                          >>
                                                          >
                                                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                          >No virus found in this message.
                                                          >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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