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Re: Theos-World COMPARING & CONTRASTING Some of the Different Interpretations about the Masters

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  • Steve Stubbs
    Daniel: There must be some confusion here. I have repeatedly argued that: (1) The masters were real men, whose worldly identities were concealed with the
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 2, 2002
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      Daniel:

      There must be some confusion here. I have repeatedly
      argued that:

      (1) The masters were real men, whose worldly
      identities were concealed with the pseudonyms KH,
      which was for sure a pseudonym, and M, which was
      probably a pseudonyn,

      (2) the WB was a real organization, based on northern
      India which may or may not still exist,

      (3) The MS quoted in the SD were real MS kept in a
      library maintained by a member of the WB,

      (4) The thesis developed in the SD was the work of the
      WB, and not the unassisted production of HPB,

      (5) HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
      said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
      says, and Olcott's Ootan Liatto experience is
      explicable in terms of herbs burned by Ootan Liatto
      and his companion in Olcott's presence,

      (6) The mahatma letters were written by HPB and
      Damodar and palmed off on people in a way made to
      appear mysterious, except in a few cases.

      (7) The rest of the phenomena have to be judged on a
      case by case basis, but most of them are not
      scientific evidence, even though all of them might
      have neen miraculous for all I know. It is therefore
      good historical technique to focus on the strong
      stories and ignore the weak ones.

      Steve

      --- danielhcaldwell <danielhcaldwell@...> wrote:
      > Some of the readers on this forum may find the
      > following of some
      > interest:
      >
      > "COMPARING and CONTRASTING Some of the Different
      > Interpretations
      > about Blavatsky's Masters"
      >
      > by Daniel H. Caldwell
      >
      > See:
      >
      >
      http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/caldwellcomparing.htm
      >
      > Daniel H. Caldwell
      > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
      > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


      __________________________________________________
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    • adelasie
      Dear Steve, Would you be so kind as to supply us with some additonal information? ... What does WB stand for? ... Where may we find statements by HPB to the
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 2, 2002
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        Dear Steve,

        Would you be so kind as to supply us with some additonal
        information?

        > (2) the WB was a real organization, based on northern
        > India which may or may not still exist,
        >
        What does "WB" stand for?
        >
        > (5) HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
        > said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
        > says, and Olcott's Ootan Liatto experience is
        > explicable in terms of herbs burned by Ootan Liatto
        > and his companion in Olcott's presence,


        Where may we find statements by HPB to the effect that she and
        the Masters used "botanical substances?"

        Thank you,
        Adelasie
      • bri_mue
        Adelasie: Where may we find statements by HPB to the effect that she and the Masters used botanical substances? Olcott himself clearly states that when it
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2002
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          Adelasie: Where may we find statements by HPB to the effect that she
          and the Masters used "botanical substances?"

          Olcott himself clearly states that when it rained
          inside his apartment, etc., there were herbs being
          burned by his two purpoerted "adepts", visitors.

          Many serious Theosophical historians like for example Patrick
          Deveney and Joscelyn Godwin will confirm that Blavatsky took drugs.

          For example John Patrick Deveney writes in "Theosophical History
          Occasional Papers" Vol.VI (published by James Santucci);
          "H.P.B.'s use of hashish in the New York days is well attested
          though the subject is ussually dismissed as an idiosyncrasy rather
          then seriously discussed.- It is perhaps to the use of such drugs by
          Theosophists (or at least H.P.B.) that Emma Hardings Britten is
          referring in "Art Magic" when she condemns "all the hazy
          metaphysicians that have essayed to found new sects, on the basis of
          tobacco,hasheesh, and opium visions."

          J.Godwin in "The Theosophical Enlightenment" ads to that; "Hashish
          was tipically used with the intention of communicating with angels
          using a magic mirror , and magnetists used it to enhance the
          perceptions of their somnambulists" (mediums)

          Brigitte

          --- In theos-talk@y..., "adelasie" <adelasie@s...> wrote:
          > Dear Steve,
          >
          > Would you be so kind as to supply us with some additonal
          > information?
          >
          > > (2) the WB was a real organization, based on northern
          > > India which may or may not still exist,
          > >
          > What does "WB" stand for?
          > >
          > > (5) HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
          > > said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
          > > says, and Olcott's Ootan Liatto experience is
          > > explicable in terms of herbs burned by Ootan Liatto
          > > and his companion in Olcott's presence,
          >
          >
          > Where may we find statements by HPB to the effect that she and
          > the Masters used "botanical substances?"
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Adelasie
        • danielhcaldwell
          Dear Steve, Thanks for your posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/5036 I gather from what you write that you are in complete agreement
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 3, 2002
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            Dear Steve,

            Thanks for your posting at:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/5036

            I gather from what you write that you are in complete agreement with
            K. Paul Johnson that in the Ooton Liatto Case [see Case A at
            http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/olcottsevenaccounts.htm ]
            two "physically present people [were] conversing with Olcott....".

            In other words, you maintain that the two men in Olcott's apartment
            were NOT imaginary figments of Olcott's hallucination but real flesh
            and blood human beings. I also assume you agree with Johnson that
            these two men were ADEPTS. If all of this is true, then it appears
            that Johnson, you and I are in agreement on our assessments of this
            particular case.

            It will be quite interesting to see if Brigitte M├╝hlegger will
            CLEARLY state her position on the Ooton Liatto case. And if
            she differs with our assessment, then I hope she will take the time
            and effort to state her reasons for her DIFFERING opinion.

            Moving to the next related issue.

            From what you have written at
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/5036 , may we safely
            assume that you also accept "at face value" the other cases cited at:

            http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/olcottsevenaccounts.htm

            For example, in Cases B, C and F, Olcott reports that his Master
            [Morya] came to visit and talk with him. In light of what you have
            written, I am assuming that you accept that a real physical person
            came to visit Olcott on each of these occasions. And furthermore
            that this person was Blavatsky's Master who used the pseudonym M. Am
            I right in making these assumptions?

            One more example: In Case D, Olcott testified he saw "one of the
            Masters" at the Golden Temple in Amritsar. Do you accept that a real
            flesh and blood man gave HPB and Olcott each a rose?

            Thanking you in advance for your further input and clarification of
            your position.

            Daniel H. Caldwell
            BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
            http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
          • adelasie
            Thanks for you offering, Brigitte, However, Steve did say, (5) HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she ... and I would like to read those statements
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 3, 2002
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              Thanks for you offering, Brigitte,

              However, Steve did say,

              (5) HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
              > > > said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
              > > > says,

              and I would like to read those statements for myself.

              Adelasie



              On 3 Feb 02, at 11:23, bri_mue wrote:

              > Adelasie: Where may we find statements by HPB to the effect that she
              > and the Masters used "botanical substances?"
              >
              > Olcott himself clearly states that when it rained
              > inside his apartment, etc., there were herbs being
              > burned by his two purpoerted "adepts", visitors.
              >
              > Many serious Theosophical historians like for example Patrick
              > Deveney and Joscelyn Godwin will confirm that Blavatsky took drugs.
              >
              > For example John Patrick Deveney writes in "Theosophical History
              > Occasional Papers" Vol.VI (published by James Santucci); "H.P.B.'s use
              > of hashish in the New York days is well attested though the subject is
              > ussually dismissed as an idiosyncrasy rather then seriously
              > discussed.- It is perhaps to the use of such drugs by Theosophists (or
              > at least H.P.B.) that Emma Hardings Britten is referring in "Art
              > Magic" when she condemns "all the hazy metaphysicians that have
              > essayed to found new sects, on the basis of tobacco,hasheesh, and
              > opium visions."
              >
              > J.Godwin in "The Theosophical Enlightenment" ads to that; "Hashish was
              > tipically used with the intention of communicating with angels using a
              > magic mirror , and magnetists used it to enhance the perceptions of
              > their somnambulists" (mediums)
              >
              > Brigitte
              >
              > --- In theos-talk@y..., "adelasie" <adelasie@s...> wrote:
              > > Dear Steve,
              > >
              > > Would you be so kind as to supply us with some additonal
              > > information?
              > >
              > > > (2) the WB was a real organization, based on northern
              > > > India which may or may not still exist,
              > > >
              > > What does "WB" stand for?
              > > >
              > > > (5) HPB did in fact use botanical substances, as she
              > > > said herself, and her masters did as well, as she
              > > > says, and Olcott's Ootan Liatto experience is
              > > > explicable in terms of herbs burned by Ootan Liatto
              > > > and his companion in Olcott's presence,
              > >
              > >
              > > Where may we find statements by HPB to the effect that she and the
              > > Masters used "botanical substances?"
              > >
              > > Thank you,
              > > Adelasie
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Dennis Kier
              I guess that you are saying that because she could write with a certain knowledge _about_ herbal substances, therefore she was a habitual user of such
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 5, 2002
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                I guess that you are saying that because she could write with a
                certain knowledge _about_ herbal substances, therefore she was a
                habitual user of such substances.??

                Carrying that a bit further, I long felt that since you seem obsessed
                with all this drug and herbal usage, that you yourself MUST be a
                habitual user of those same substances. If we were to conduct a poll
                of those readers of this thread about "Who is Stoned", I personally
                would feel that more probably You and Frank were "stoned", than HPB
                and Olcott.

                I have heard it said that "It takes One to know One."

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: bri_mue <bri_mue@...>
                To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:56 PM
                Subject: Theos-World Re: HPB, the Masters, and drugs.


                > In an interview with the "New York World",April 2, 1877,"Why a
                > Russian Countess Firmly Believes in Magic," Blavatsky later stated
                > publicly that "the chief of the gurus showed me things wich I
                > demonstrated to be truth. For instance he made me look at a bright
                > tin plate and fix my toughts on something I wished to see."He made
                > passes over her and made her drink a potion "the ingredients of wich
                > I know but will not tell"
                >
                > In "Erroneous Ideas Concerning the Doctrines of the
                > Theosophists,"published in 1879, she declared that proof of doctrine
                > of conditional immortality was only given the neophyte "durring the
                > Great Mysteries, when a sacred beverage enabled him to leave his
                body
                > and, soaring in the infinity of worlds, observe and look for
                > himself."
                >
                >
                > Blavatsky writes; "The women of Thessaly and Epirus, the female
                > heirophants of the rites of Sabazius, did not carry their secrets
                > away with the downfall of their sanctuaries. They are still
                > preserved, and those who are aware of the nature of soma (a plant
                > whose juices induce a hypnotic trance-like state) know the
                properties
                > of other plants as well." ( Isis Unveiled)
                >
                > In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                > Blavatsky wrote that the separation of soul and body is "one of the
                > last and very highest achievements of magic."
                >
                > Related to this in Blavatsky's schema was the sacred "Sleep of *** "
                > an obvious reference to the Sleep of Sialam, a term used by
                > P.B.Randolph in his Rosicrucian novel Ravalette (1863) for the
                > highest, drug induced vision state. It was taken up in Isis Unveiled
                > where it relates to a drug- induced, prophetic "sublime lethargy" in
                > wich the uncounscious subject is made the "temporary receptacle of
                > the brightness of the immortal Augoeides."
                >
                > P.Deveney in "Astral Projection or Liberating of the Double and the
                > Work of the Theosophical Society"( wites: Later the "Sleep of
                > Sialam" came to mean the soma-induced trance during wich the new
                > initiate- both in the Orient and in the ancient Mysteries-comprhends
                > the ultimate mysteries after undergoing the tests of Initiation.
                > ("The Esoteric Character of the Gospels, "Lucifer, November 1887)
                >
                > Deveney ads that :"I do not think that drugs can be ruled out as a
                > possibility in seeking practical techniques in the TS.- and would
                > appear to be related to the degree structure or sections adopted by
                > the Society at least as early as 1878 and which G.H.Felt , as we
                > shall see, says were adopted from the verry beginning." (Deveney
                > gives then more evidence as he goos on, and this is indeed one of
                the
                > books that is recomended reading if one wants to study this subject
                > further, see: Deveney, "Astral Projection and the early TS")
              • bri_mue
                Reg. It takes One to know One. , if you want to accuse me of drug use you are at the wrong address, I never took any drugs. Brigitte ... obsessed ... wich ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 5, 2002
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                  Reg."It takes One to know One.", if you want to accuse me of drug use
                  you are at the wrong address, I never took any drugs.

                  Brigitte

                  --- In theos-talk@y..., "Dennis Kier" <dennw3k@e...> wrote:
                  > I guess that you are saying that because she could write with a
                  > certain knowledge _about_ herbal substances, therefore she was a
                  > habitual user of such substances.??
                  >
                  > Carrying that a bit further, I long felt that since you seem
                  obsessed
                  > with all this drug and herbal usage, that you yourself MUST be a
                  > habitual user of those same substances. If we were to conduct a poll
                  > of those readers of this thread about "Who is Stoned", I personally
                  > would feel that more probably You and Frank were "stoned", than HPB
                  > and Olcott.
                  >
                  > I have heard it said that "It takes One to know One."
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: bri_mue <bri_mue@y...>
                  > To: <theos-talk@y...>
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:56 PM
                  > Subject: Theos-World Re: HPB, the Masters, and drugs.
                  >
                  >
                  > > In an interview with the "New York World",April 2, 1877,"Why a
                  > > Russian Countess Firmly Believes in Magic," Blavatsky later stated
                  > > publicly that "the chief of the gurus showed me things wich I
                  > > demonstrated to be truth. For instance he made me look at a bright
                  > > tin plate and fix my toughts on something I wished to see."He made
                  > > passes over her and made her drink a potion "the ingredients of
                  wich
                  > > I know but will not tell"
                  > >
                  > > In "Erroneous Ideas Concerning the Doctrines of the
                  > > Theosophists,"published in 1879, she declared that proof of
                  doctrine
                  > > of conditional immortality was only given the neophyte "durring
                  the
                  > > Great Mysteries, when a sacred beverage enabled him to leave his
                  > body
                  > > and, soaring in the infinity of worlds, observe and look for
                  > > himself."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Blavatsky writes; "The women of Thessaly and Epirus, the female
                  > > heirophants of the rites of Sabazius, did not carry their secrets
                  > > away with the downfall of their sanctuaries. They are still
                  > > preserved, and those who are aware of the nature of soma (a plant
                  > > whose juices induce a hypnotic trance-like state) know the
                  > properties
                  > > of other plants as well." ( Isis Unveiled)
                  > >
                  > > In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                  > > Blavatsky wrote that the separation of soul and body is "one of
                  the
                  > > last and very highest achievements of magic."
                  > >
                  > > Related to this in Blavatsky's schema was the sacred "Sleep of
                  *** "
                  > > an obvious reference to the Sleep of Sialam, a term used by
                  > > P.B.Randolph in his Rosicrucian novel Ravalette (1863) for the
                  > > highest, drug induced vision state. It was taken up in Isis
                  Unveiled
                  > > where it relates to a drug- induced, prophetic "sublime lethargy"
                  in
                  > > wich the uncounscious subject is made the "temporary receptacle of
                  > > the brightness of the immortal Augoeides."
                  > >
                  > > P.Deveney in "Astral Projection or Liberating of the Double and
                  the
                  > > Work of the Theosophical Society"( wites: Later the "Sleep of
                  > > Sialam" came to mean the soma-induced trance during wich the new
                  > > initiate- both in the Orient and in the ancient Mysteries-
                  comprhends
                  > > the ultimate mysteries after undergoing the tests of Initiation.
                  > > ("The Esoteric Character of the Gospels, "Lucifer, November 1887)
                  > >
                  > > Deveney ads that :"I do not think that drugs can be ruled out as a
                  > > possibility in seeking practical techniques in the TS.- and would
                  > > appear to be related to the degree structure or sections adopted
                  by
                  > > the Society at least as early as 1878 and which G.H.Felt , as we
                  > > shall see, says were adopted from the verry beginning." (Deveney
                  > > gives then more evidence as he goos on, and this is indeed one of
                  > the
                  > > books that is recomended reading if one wants to study this
                  subject
                  > > further, see: Deveney, "Astral Projection and the early TS")
                • bri_mue
                  Adelasie: page numbers, name of publisher, and other such references I have posted these before, but given you do not read earlier postings I will try to do
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 6, 2002
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                    Adelasie: "page numbers, name of publisher, and other such
                    references"

                    I have posted these before, but given you do not read earlier
                    postings I will try to do a new different write up tomorrow and post
                    it in one or two days. The quotes are nevertheless correct.

                    Brigitte

                    In an interview with the "New York World",April 2, 1877,"Why a
                    Russian Countess Firmly Believes in Magic," Blavatsky later stated
                    publicly that "the chief of the gurus showed me things wich I
                    demonstrated to be truth. For instance he made me look at a bright
                    tin plate and fix my toughts on something I wished to see."He made
                    passes over her and made her drink a potion "the ingredients of wich
                    I know but will not tell"

                    In "Erroneous Ideas Concerning the Doctrines of the
                    Theosophists,"published in 1879, she declared that proof of doctrine
                    of conditional immortality was only given the neophyte "durring the
                    Great Mysteries, when a sacred beverage enabled him to leave his body
                    and, soaring in the infinity of worlds, observe and look for
                    himself."


                    Blavatsky writes; "The women of Thessaly and Epirus, the female
                    heirophants of the rites of Sabazius, did not carry their secrets
                    away with the downfall of their sanctuaries. They are still
                    preserved, and those who are aware of the nature of soma (a plant
                    whose juices induce a hypnotic trance-like state) know the properties
                    of other plants as well." ( Isis Unveiled)

                    In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                    Blavatsky wrote that the separation of soul and body is "one of the
                    last and very highest achievements of magic."

                    Related to this in Blavatsky's schema was the sacred "Sleep of *** "
                    an obvious reference to the Sleep of Sialam, a term used by
                    P.B.Randolph in his Rosicrucian novel Ravalette (1863) for the
                    highest, drug induced vision state. It was taken up in Isis Unveiled
                    where it relates to a drug- induced, prophetic "sublime lethargy" in
                    wich the uncounscious subject is made the "temporary receptacle of
                    the brightness of the immortal Augoeides."

                    P.Deveney in "Astral Projection or Liberating of the Double and the
                    Work of the Theosophical Society"( wites: Later the "Sleep of
                    Sialam" came to mean the soma-induced trance during wich the new
                    initiate- both in the Orient and in the ancient Mysteries-comprhends
                    the ultimate mysteries after undergoing the tests of Initiation.
                    ("The Esoteric Character of the Gospels, "Lucifer, November 1887)

                    Deveney ads that :"I do not think that drugs can be ruled out as a
                    possibility in seeking practical techniques in the TS.- and would
                    appear to be related to the degree structure or sections adopted by
                    the Society at least as early as 1878 and which G.H.Felt , as we
                    shall see, says were adopted from the verry beginning." (Deveney
                    gives then more evidence as he goos on, and this is indeed one of the
                    books that is recomended reading if one wants to study this subject
                    further, see: Deveney, "Astral Projection and the early TS")
                    We did have a previous discussion on this list on this
                    subject, in fact there is a relation with the drugs to astral
                    projection in the early TS and mirror gasing. In fact Steve wrote:

                    There is plenty of reason to believe (1) Blavatsky
                    used mirror gazing to develop her clairvoyance, and
                    (2) was at least familiar with Randolph's manual of
                    mirror gazing entitled SEERSHIP, whether he was her
                    original teacher or not.

                    Consider the following quote from THE TRANSACTIONS OF
                    THE BLAVATSKY LODGE:

                    "If the Astral Light is collected in a cup or metal
                    vessel hy will;power, and the eyes fixed on
                    some point in it with a strong will to see, a waking
                    vision or 'dream' is the result, if the person is at
                    all sensitive. The reflections in the Astral Light are
                    seen better with closed eyes, and, in sleep, still
                    more distinctly. From a lucid state, vision becomes
                    translucid; from normal organic consciousness it rises
                    to a transcendental state of consciousness."

                    This is clearly a reference to mirror gazing, using a
                    metal surface instead of a glass mirror. Now consider
                    the following from mahatma letter #127:

                    "The methods used for developing lucidity in our
                    chelas may be easily used by you. Every temple has a
                    dark room, the north wall of which is entirely covered
                    with a sheet of mixed metal, chiefly copper, very
                    highly polished, with a surface capable of reflecting
                    in it things, as well as a mirror. The chela sits on
                    an insulated stool, a three-legged bench placed in a
                    flat-bottomed vessel of thick glass, - the lama
                    operator likewise, the two forming with the mirror
                    wall a triangle. A magnet with the North Pole up is
                    suspended over the crown of the chela's head without
                    touching it. The operator having started the thing
                    going leaves the chela alone gazing on the wall, and
                    after the third time is no longer required."

                    Here again we have a clear reference to mirror gazing,
                    again using a metal surface for a mirror. The
                    experiment indicates considerable western influence.
                    We now know that this setup did not in fact exist in
                    "every temple" in Tibet. The idea of using a mirror
                    of mixed metals comes from Paracelsus, as Hartmann
                    showed. The magnet also indicates a western
                    influence.

                    Now notice the statement that mirror gazing techniques
                    constitute "the methods used for developing lucidity
                    in our chelas." That is pretty explicit. That is a
                    category in which Blavatsky would have included
                    herself. Notice also the statement that "the chela
                    sits on an insulated stool, a three legged
                    bench placed in a flat bottomed vessel of thick
                    glass." That idea, that the seer should sit in a
                    chair electrically insulated from the ground using
                    glass, comes from Randolph's book SEERSHIP.

                    Now consider this piece of doggerel, from mahatma
                    letter # 19:

                    "No curtain hides the spheres Elysian,
                    Nor these poor shells of half transparent dust;
                    For all that blinds the spirit's vision
                    Is pride and hate and lust." (Not for publication)

                    That is given unattributed and appears unattributed in
                    Randolph's book as well.
                    Brigitte: Blavatsky definetly believed she "needed" the mirror
                    because that
                    is the way her teacher tought it to her and indications are that is
                    where the drugs among others where used for.
                    Below find the story posted by
                    Daniel Caldwell, edited by Steve so as to show only those
                    portions which indicate that herbs were involved in
                    the experience:

                    "We took cigars. ... I was stupefied. ... They sat
                    there and quietly smoked their cigars. ... I just sat
                    and looked at them in a sort of stupid daze. They
                    seemed to enjoy my surprise. ... Then the elder man
                    took out of his pocket a painted lacquered case. ...
                    The box exhaled a strong spicy aromatic odor much like
                    sandal wood but still not just that. Whatever I
                    wished to see, he said I need simply think of. ...
                    When I seemed to be growing inquisitive, some power
                    prevented my seeing anything. ... I stood transfixed
                    looking from one to another in dumb amazement. ...
                    Madam said, ... 'What's the matter? You must be
                    crazy.' ... Madam said they had been with her for more
                    than an hour. ... In a half hour from the time the two
                    men left, there was not a drop of moisture in the room
                    nor a shade of dampness to indicate that there had
                    been a shower."

                    In this quote we see evidence of herbs burning, herbs
                    contained within a lacquered case which was held to
                    Olcott's nose, visual hallucinations, tactile
                    hallucinations (the room was wet), profuse sweating,
                    time distortion, loss of consciousness, cognitive
                    impairment, and stupefaction. Can any reasonable
                    person read this story and believe that there were no
                    botanical products involved in this wonder?
                    Especially interesting is that these drugs are the
                    means of "the production of flowers as the adepts do
                    it." That clearly indicates that they used these
                    substances to produce visual hallucinations and
                    presumably insights.
                    As for the Hartmann letter, the mahatma letters
                    frankly admit most (but not necessarily all) of them
                    were delivered in a normal manner and palmed off on
                    people. Blavatsky frankly admitted most (but not all)
                    of them were written, not by the men whose signatures
                    they bear, but by "amanuensis chelas", i.e., herself
                    and Damodar. If there is a paranormal aspect to most
                    of them it is therefore her belief that she was
                    inspired with their thoughts or did automatic writing
                    or whatever. That said, it does not seem to me to be
                    good historical technique to insist that the Hartmann
                    letter was materialized. A letter could only be
                    assumed to have been materialized if someone who is
                    credible (not Leadbeater, in other words) actually
                    witnessed the process. Hodgson quoted an account by
                    Olcott of this.

                    One thing is for sure: figuring where the baloney ends
                    and the truth begins is an excellent exercise in
                    developing critical reasoning ability which serves one
                    well in assessing other issues in other areas of
                    life.

                    Steve
                  • danielhcaldwell
                    ... Brigitte, did you actually go to the RELIGIO-PHILOSOPHICAL JOURNAL for May 19, 1877 and read page 4? Did Madame Blavatsky actually WRITE what you say she
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 6, 2002
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                      In one of Brigitte's latest postings, we find:

                      > In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                      > Blavatsky wrote that the separation of soul and body is "one of the
                      > last and very highest achievements of magic."

                      Brigitte, did you actually go to the RELIGIO-PHILOSOPHICAL JOURNAL
                      for May 19, 1877 and read page 4?

                      Did Madame Blavatsky actually WRITE what you say she did?

                      It would appear that you only consulted Deveney's ASTRAL PROJECTION
                      and that you have actually MISREAD footnote 40 on page 17 of
                      Deveney's work.

                      The article in the RPJ for 5/19/1877 [mentioned in footnote 40] is
                      (as Deveney writes) "an article touting the superiority over
                      occultism of the new phase of spiritualism, exemplified by Cora
                      Richmond, in which the medium was taken out of her body to view the
                      wonderful scenes of the spirit world."

                      Did Madame Blavatsky write this article????

                      Daniel H. Caldwell
                      BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                      http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
                    • bri_mue
                      It seems it is rather you who is again trying to misconstrue the whole thing Deveney clearly points out that Blavatsky claims (See p. 17) Note the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 6, 2002
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                        It seems it is rather you who is again trying to misconstrue the
                        whole thing Deveney clearly points out that "Blavatsky" claims (See
                        p. 17) "Note the insistence in the interview that this astral
                        projection was the highest achievment of magic." (referring to an
                        interview with Blavatsky)

                        At least in spite of his misconstruing the text, Daniel now has the
                        booklet, wich given his questions untill recently he didn't even
                        have.

                        Daniel, you obviously have a scanner, why don't you just scan this
                        whole page nr. 17 of Deveney's book so everybody can make up their
                        own mind what is standing there.
                        Brigitte

                        --- In theos-talk@y..., "danielhcaldwell" <danielhcaldwell@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > In one of Brigitte's latest postings, we find:
                        >
                        > > In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                        > > Blavatsky wrote that the separation of soul and body is "one of
                        the
                        > > last and very highest achievements of magic."
                        >
                        > Brigitte, did you actually go to the RELIGIO-PHILOSOPHICAL JOURNAL
                        > for May 19, 1877 and read page 4?
                        >
                        > Did Madame Blavatsky actually WRITE what you say she did?
                        >
                        > It would appear that you only consulted Deveney's ASTRAL PROJECTION
                        > and that you have actually MISREAD footnote 40 on page 17 of
                        > Deveney's work.
                        >
                        > The article in the RPJ for 5/19/1877 [mentioned in footnote 40] is
                        > (as Deveney writes) "an article touting the superiority over
                        > occultism of the new phase of spiritualism, exemplified by Cora
                        > Richmond, in which the medium was taken out of her body to view the
                        > wonderful scenes of the spirit world."
                        >
                        > Did Madame Blavatsky write this article????
                        >
                        > Daniel H. Caldwell
                        > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                        > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
                      • danielhcaldwell
                        Brigitte, I have had a copy of the Deveney pamphlet since the year it was first published. At the time of publication I wrote to a number of Blavatsky
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 6, 2002
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                          Brigitte, I have had a copy of the Deveney pamphlet since the year it
                          was first published. At the time of publication I wrote to a number
                          of Blavatsky students recommending that they read it. Also in past
                          years I have had several phone conversations with Blavatsky students
                          on some of Deveney's claims, etc. etc.

                          Now returning to the issue concerning the quote.

                          Brigitte, you wrote (I assume you were the one writing!)---

                          > In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                          > Blavatsky WROTE that the separation of soul and body is "one of
                          > the
                          > last and very highest achievements of magic."

                          Now you write ". . . 'Blavatsky' claims. . . " in "an interview".

                          So are you now saying that Blavatsky did NOT write what you said she
                          did? And she did NOT write it in the RPJ for May 19, 1877?

                          No, I am not "again" trying to misconstrue what Deveney is pointing
                          out.

                          And no, I will NOT scan this whole page 17 of Deveney's pamphlet and
                          post it. That, it would appear to me, is a violation of copyright
                          law.

                          Daniel H. Caldwell
                          BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                          http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm


                          --- In theos-talk@y..., "bri_mue" <bri_mue@y...> wrote:
                          > It seems it is rather you who is again trying to misconstrue the
                          > whole thing Deveney clearly points out that "Blavatsky" claims (See
                          > p. 17) "Note the insistence in the interview that this astral
                          > projection was the highest achievment of magic." (referring to an
                          > interview with Blavatsky)
                          >
                          > At least in spite of his misconstruing the text, Daniel now has the
                          > booklet, wich given his questions untill recently he didn't even
                          > have.
                          >
                          > Daniel, you obviously have a scanner, why don't you just scan this
                          > whole page nr. 17 of Deveney's book so everybody can make up their
                          > own mind what is standing there.
                          > Brigitte
                          >
                          > --- In theos-talk@y..., "danielhcaldwell" <danielhcaldwell@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > In one of Brigitte's latest postings, we find:
                          > >
                          > > > In the "Religio-Philosophical Journal 22/20, May 19, 1877:p. 4,
                          > > > Blavatsky wrote that the separation of soul and body is "one of
                          > the
                          > > > last and very highest achievements of magic."
                          > >
                          > > Brigitte, did you actually go to the RELIGIO-PHILOSOPHICAL
                          JOURNAL
                          > > for May 19, 1877 and read page 4?
                          > >
                          > > Did Madame Blavatsky actually WRITE what you say she did?
                          > >
                          > > It would appear that you only consulted Deveney's ASTRAL
                          PROJECTION
                          > > and that you have actually MISREAD footnote 40 on page 17 of
                          > > Deveney's work.
                          > >
                          > > The article in the RPJ for 5/19/1877 [mentioned in footnote 40]
                          is
                          > > (as Deveney writes) "an article touting the superiority over
                          > > occultism of the new phase of spiritualism, exemplified by Cora
                          > > Richmond, in which the medium was taken out of her body to view
                          the
                          > > wonderful scenes of the spirit world."
                          > >
                          > > Did Madame Blavatsky write this article????
                          > >
                          > > Daniel H. Caldwell
                          > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
                          > > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm
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