Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Did Bailey use some of Leadbeater's & Besant's original ES material?

Expand Messages
  • D. H. Caldwell <info@blavatskyarchives.c
    Did Phillip Lindsay ever comment on the BELOW items and/or admit that he was mistaken and that it was actually Bailey who used some of Leadbeater s and
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 22, 2003
      Did Phillip Lindsay ever comment on the BELOW items and/or admit that
      he was mistaken and that it was actually Bailey who "used" some of
      Leadbeater's and Besant's original ES material when writing her
      book "Initiation, Human and Solar"?

      Daniel
      ----------------------------------------

      Nicholas Weeks wrote:

      "Her [Bailey's]books are rooted in the pseudo-theosophy pioneered by
      CW Leadbeater."

      Phillip Lindsay replied:

      "It is actually the other way around. Leadbeater used some of
      AAB's original material from books such as Intiation, Human and Solar
      and took the credit for it in his book The Masters and the Path."

      Jerry Hejka-Ekins commented:

      "I read it [Bailey's Initiation Human and Solar] some years ago, and
      found it very faithful to the ES teachings [of Besant and Leadbeater]
      as they were presented from 1910-1918."
    • James Davis
      DHCibc Did Phillip Lindsay ever comment on the BELOW items and/or DHCibc admit that he was mistaken and that it was actually Bailey who DHCibc used some
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 22, 2003
        DHCibc> Did Phillip Lindsay ever comment on the BELOW items and/or
        DHCibc> admit that he was mistaken and that it was actually Bailey who
        DHCibc> "used" some of Leadbeater's and Besant's original ES material
        DHCibc> when writing her book "Initiation, Human and Solar"?

        DHCibc> Daniel


        Phillip has left this group to focus on more creative work.

        I think his position on the question of source mirror, as shown in the
        reply below, is clear.

        James

        DHCibc> Nicholas Weeks wrote:

        DHCibc> "Her [Bailey's]books are rooted in the pseudo-theosophy pioneered by
        DHCibc> CW Leadbeater."

        DHCibc> Phillip Lindsay replied:

        DHCibc> "It is actually the other way around. Leadbeater used some of
        DHCibc> AAB's original material from books such as Intiation, Human and Solar
        DHCibc> and took the credit for it in his book The Masters and the Path."

        DHCibc> Jerry Hejka-Ekins commented:

        DHCibc> "I read it [Bailey's Initiation Human and Solar] some years ago, and
        DHCibc> found it very faithful to the ES teachings [of Besant and Leadbeater]
        DHCibc> as they were presented from 1910-1918."
      • D. H. Caldwell <info@blavatskyarchives.c
        Did Bailey use some of Leadbeater s & Besant s original ES material? Concerning the information provided in:
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 22, 2003
          Did Bailey use some of Leadbeater's & Besant's original ES material?

          Concerning the information provided in:
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/10706
          consider ALSO the following:

          On Theos-L in a posting dated Jan. 12, 1994, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:

          "From my earlier perusal of AAB's writings, I found that many of her
          teachings were drawn directly from Besant and Leadbeater's E.S.
          writings, which to this day, are not publicly available. For the E.S.
          to publicly acknowledge that AAB was publishing secret E.S. material,
          would give away to the public the nature of the very material the
          E.S. is trying to keep secret. . . . "

          Quoted from:
          http://www.theosophy.net/tl-text/TL199401.TXT

          Arvind Kumar replied to Jerry's above comment:

          "Can you tell me in which published books of AAB this
          Leadbeater/Besant ES material may have appeared (your conjectures
          will be fine)?"

          Jerry replied in another posting dated Feb 1, 1994:

          "Your request puts me into a bit of a bind. Though I am not
          bound by any pledges not to reveal this material, nor did my
          source break any pledges, I still have come concern about raising
          the ire of pledged members who believe that this material should
          be kept secret. I'm willing to risk their anger, and reveal the
          contents of some of this material, if any real good were to come
          out of it. So I will have to put the question back to you by
          asking: If by revealing the contents of the E.S. materials, I
          show that key teachings in AAB's writings are in previously
          published E.S. writings that she had seen, then what would this
          mean to you?"

          Quoted from:
          http://www.theosophy.net/tl-text/TL199402.TXT

          Daniel H. Caldwell
          BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
          http://hpb.cc
        • James Davis
          DHCibc Did Bailey use some of Leadbeater s & Besant s original ES material? In response, a few relevant passages from AAB s autobiography. I ve written many
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 22, 2003
            DHCibc> Did Bailey use some of Leadbeater's & Besant's original ES material?

            In response, a few relevant passages from AAB's autobiography.


            " I've written many books since then for the Tibetan Shortly after
            finishing the first few chapters of [167] "Initiation, Human and
            Solar" I showed the manuscript to B. P. Wadia. He got very excited
            and told me that he would publish anything that "came from that
            source" and printed the first few chapters in "The Theosophist,"
            published in Adyar, India. Then the usual theosophical jealousy and
            reactionary attitude appeared and no more was printed."


            "Many of H.P.B.'s personal pupils have helped me and have personally
            taken the trouble to see that I understood what it was that was
            happening to human thought through the publication of "The Secret
            Doctrine." I have often been amused by the orthodox Theosophists who
            have disapproved of my presentation of theosophical truth. Few of
            them, if any, who have thus disapproved ever had the privilege of
            being taught by personal pupils of H.P.B. for weeks and months on
            end, and I'm pretty sure that, thanks to these old students, I have a
            clearer perception of what "The Secret Doctrine" was intended to
            convey than most of them. Why should I not? I was well taught and I
            am grateful."

            "It was during this year, 1918, that I discovered for the first time
            who it was that had come to see me in Scotland when I was a girl of
            fifteen. I had been admitted into the Esoteric Section (E.S.) of the
            Theosophical Society and was attending their meetings. The first time
            that I went into the Shrine Room I saw the customary pictures of the
            Christ and the Masters of the Wisdom, as the Theosophists call Them.
            To my surprise there, looking straight at me, was a picture of my
            visitor. There was no mistake. This was the man who had walked into
            my aunt's drawing room, and it was not the Master Jesus. I was
            inexperienced then and rushed to one of the senior people at Krotona
            and asked for the name of this Master. They told me that it was the
            Master K.H. and then I made a basic mistake for which I have since
            paid the price. Believing that they would be pleased and not
            intending in the very least to be boastful I said, in all innocence,
            "Oh, then, He must be my Master, for I've talked with Him and been
            under His guidance ever since." This person looked at me and said,
            with rather a withering inflection, "Am I to understand that you
            believe yourself to be a disciple?" For the first time in my life I
            was up against the competitive technique of the Theosophical Society.
            It was, however, a wholesome lesson for me and I profited thereby.
            Learning to hold one's tongue is essential in group work, and one of
            the first lessons which any one affiliated with the Hierarchy has to
            learn."

            *******

            I, in the meantime, had started a Secret Doctrine class and had rented a room on
            Madison Avenue where we could [190] hold classes and see people by appointment. This
            Secret Doctrine class was started in 1921 and was exceedingly well-attended. People
            from the various Theosophical societies and occult groups came regularly. Mr. Richard
            Prater, an old associate of W.Q. Judge and a pupil of H.P.Blavatsky came to my class
            one day and the next week turned his entire Secret Doctrine class over to me.

            I mention this for the benefit of United Lodge of Theosophists and for those who
            claim that the true Theosophical lineage descends from H.P.B. via W.Q. Judge. All
            the Theosophy that I knew had been taught me by personal friends and pupils of H.P.B.
            and this Mr. Prater recognized. Later he gave me the esoteric section instructions
            as given to him by H.P.B. They are identical with those I had seen when in the E.S.
            but they were given to me with no strings attached to them at all and I have been
            at liberty to use them at any time and have used them. When he died many years ago
            his theosophical library came into our hands with all the old Lucifers and all the
            old editions of the Theosophical magazine, plus other esoteric papers which he had
            received from H.P.B.

            Among the papers which he gave me was one in which H.P.B. expressed her wish that
            the esoteric section should be called the Arcane School. It never was and I made
            up my mind that the old lady should have her wish and that was how the school came
            to get its name. I regarded it as a great privilege and happiness to know Mr. Prater.

            Another old pupil of Madame Blavatsky and Col.Olcott, Miss Sarah Jacobs, gave me
            the photographic plates of the Masters' pictures which were given to her by Col.
            Olcott so that I have more than a happy feeling that the personal pupils and friends
            of H.P.Blavatsky approved of what I was setting out to do. I had their endorsement
            and their help until they passed over to the other side. They [191] were, naturally,
            all old people when I first met them. The attitude of the current Theosophical leaders
            and membership has always amused me. They have never approved of what I taught and
            yet what I taught came direct from personally trained pupils of H.P.B. and is more
            likely to be correct than that which has come from those who have not known her.
            I mention this because for the sake of the work I would like to have its sources
            recognized.

            From the Secret Doctrine class arose groups of students all over the country who
            received the outlined lessons that I was giving to the class on Madison Avenue. These
            classes grew and prospered until they aroused definite Theosophical antagonism and
            I was warned by Dr. Jacob Bonggren that the classes were under attack. He was an
            old pupil of H.P.B. and his writings are to be found in the earlier magazines and
            I am very proud that he stood behind me in those earlier days.






            DHCibc> Concerning the information provided in:
            DHCibc> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/10706
            DHCibc> consider ALSO the following:

            DHCibc> On Theos-L in a posting dated Jan. 12, 1994, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote:

            DHCibc> "From my earlier perusal of AAB's writings, I found that many of her
            DHCibc> teachings were drawn directly from Besant and Leadbeater's E.S.
            DHCibc> writings, which to this day, are not publicly available. For the E.S.
            DHCibc> to publicly acknowledge that AAB was publishing secret E.S. material,
            DHCibc> would give away to the public the nature of the very material the
            DHCibc> E.S. is trying to keep secret. . . . "

            DHCibc> Quoted from:
            DHCibc> http://www.theosophy.net/tl-text/TL199401.TXT

            DHCibc> Arvind Kumar replied to Jerry's above comment:

            DHCibc> "Can you tell me in which published books of AAB this
            DHCibc> Leadbeater/Besant ES material may have appeared (your conjectures
            DHCibc> will be fine)?"

            DHCibc> Jerry replied in another posting dated Feb 1, 1994:

            DHCibc> "Your request puts me into a bit of a bind. Though I am not
            DHCibc> bound by any pledges not to reveal this material, nor did my
            DHCibc> source break any pledges, I still have come concern about raising
            DHCibc> the ire of pledged members who believe that this material should
            DHCibc> be kept secret. I'm willing to risk their anger, and reveal the
            DHCibc> contents of some of this material, if any real good were to come
            DHCibc> out of it. So I will have to put the question back to you by
            DHCibc> asking: If by revealing the contents of the E.S. materials, I
            DHCibc> show that key teachings in AAB's writings are in previously
            DHCibc> published E.S. writings that she had seen, then what would this
            DHCibc> mean to you?"

            DHCibc> Quoted from:
            DHCibc> http://www.theosophy.net/tl-text/TL199402.TXT

            DHCibc> Daniel H. Caldwell
            DHCibc> BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
            DHCibc> http://hpb.cc





            DHCibc> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.