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RE: Re to Dallas - Guru-Chela

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  • dalval14@earthlink.net
    Jan 9th 2003 Dear G: Here are a few comments below Dal ... From: gschueler Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:36 PM To: Subject: Re - Guru-Chela
    Message 1 of 1 , Jan 9, 2003
      Jan 9th 2003

      Dear G:

      Here are a few comments below

      Dal

      ===================================

      -----Original Message-----
      From: gschueler
      Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:36 PM
      To:
      Subject: Re - Guru-Chela

      <<<May I but in with a few more observations ?>>>

      Any time, Dallas.

      <<<Regarding the relations between Guru and Chela one ought to observe
      that
      the traditions of the ancient Lodge of the WHITE ADEPTS never demands
      of any
      "chela" complete subservience, belief or acceptance.>>>

      Quite right. I agree completely, nor would any of the White Adepts
      "demand"
      subservience. No indeed, such subservience must be given freely by the
      chelas
      of their own accord.

      <<<The right to think for ones' self and to make ones' own decisions
      is never
      curtailed. How could that be done for an immortal ? >>>

      First, no one is denying anyone the right to think for themselves.
      Second, the
      chela is not an immortal, he is a human being. The atma-buddhi of the
      chela is
      relatively immortal, but the chela has yet to communicate and identify
      with
      this. It is the task of the guru to do this providing the chela is
      ready.

      ==================

      DTB The aggregation of skandhas that provide the "Chela" personality
      with a basis for its consciousness and current living is I think
      logically to be traced to the central attractive point namely the
      immortal spiritual SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS ). while the aggregation
      may be temporary and always changing ( Nitya pralaya ) the central and
      pivotal Consciousness is forever the same or else there could be
      nothing that could progress or improve.

      If we look on the universe as the area in which spirit and matter
      interact, and both of them are immortal, and eternal forces, their
      distributive centers ( Monads, or any other designation) are equally
      under the same LAW that causes the whole and permits their individual
      existence.

      Am I wrong in this, or do I not say it right ?

      ==========================


      <<<The Guru helps and serves the chela, he does not dominate nor does
      he
      demand impossible submission.>>>

      Such a submission is not impossible, and it is traditionally exactly
      what is
      done. Only by such a submission is the relationship workable. If you
      think a
      guru does not dominate the chela, then please read the lives of
      Tilopa,
      Naropa, and Milarepa, three guru-saints of the Kagyu Order of Tibetan
      Buddhism
      who would tell you otherwise.

      <<< That, in any case, is unreasonable, and also unenforceable.>>>

      Unreasonable, no, it is indeed psychologically reasonable. I agree
      that it is
      unenforceable, and no real guru would ever try to "enforce" such a
      thing.


      <<<Neither the Guru nor the chela can ever be unconscious of their
      individual
      immortality, or of the Karma which unites them for life, and for lives
      to
      come. The Chela might make this mistake, but not the Guru.>>>

      Dallas, my friend, there is no such thing as "individual immortality"
      except
      perhaps as a dream/hope in your own mind. According to the occult
      tradition,
      it is the Black Magicians who try to obtain individual immortality,
      and even
      Blavatsky says that this is black magic and wrong. Anton Levay
      (spelling???),
      for example, taught magical techniques that he claimed lead to
      individual
      immortality, and he was a very black magician indeed.

      ============================

      DTB I think the confusion may be over the meaning I attribute to
      "individuality" (as the spiritual aspect of Man), and, "personality"
      ( to which I ascribe the assembly of the skandhas that form the 4
      lower upadhis or vehicles).

      INDIVIDUALITY is immortal and eternal. Personality comes and goes and
      yet has a consciousness of its own which at the highest is aware of
      the Spiritual INDIVIDUALITY.

      If this were not so we could not understand Buddhaship or the
      possibility of a "Higher Manas."

      ===============================


      <<<The reason for this is that each individual, be they Guru or Chela,
      is in
      essence an immortal Soul Ego. (ATMA-BUDDHI) --or HIGHER SELF.>>>

      Each "individual" is a conditional reality that is temporary. Atma is
      collective, not individual. Atma-Buddhi the so-called Higher Self, is
      the
      nirvanee and we will become a nirvanee if we identify with it. To
      avoid this,
      we Theosophists are supposed to include manas because
      atma-buddhi-manas, when
      functioning together, is the Adept, and can even be a bodhisattva.

      ======================

      DTB In studying theosophy I became aware of a few places in which the
      spiritual vestures of the Bodhisattvas And Buddhas were described: In
      the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY H P B discusses these on p. 338-9 under
      TRIKAYA; p. 341- 344 under TRIRATNA and TRISHARNA; Voice,
      p. 46, 77-78 fn

      ======================


      <<<The Guru enables the Lower Manas (of this incarnation) to see
      itself more
      clearly. The Lower Manas is that, which is at present the active
      principle in
      each one of us. >>>

      No, that is the function of a psychiatrist or shrink. The guru enables
      to
      chela to raise consciousness to atma-buddhi-manas so that the chela
      can become
      a new guru. If the guru is capable and the chela ready, then the guru
      can help
      the chela raise consciousness all the way to the nonduality of Beness.

      ========================

      DTB In my opinion without a knowledge of the Spiritual, immortal side
      of man's nature and the ever renewable personality which envelops it,
      no modern day psychiatrist or shrink can do much if anything except to
      the personality. I would go further and say that without any true
      basis for ethics as defined by universal Law, These two "authorities"
      are completely at sea, and have no concept of the importance of the
      self-controled moral reform (conducted by the Higher aspect of the
      Personality on its lower self -- so essential for any spiritual
      advance.

      As far as I a aware there is a single simple rule that defines
      ethics/morals: the voluntary observance of the laws of Nature -- a
      harmonizing of ones' self with KARMA.

      ========================

      <<<...and in so doing, the Lower Manas is purified by the discipline
      imposed
      on it by its own inner HIGHER MANAS of all selfish tendencies -- as an
      absolute prerequisite for Divine Wisdom to be able to shine through
      it. >>>

      To this I agree, and such purification is traditionally done by ritual
      and
      mantra repetition. Also by requesting the chela to do menial and
      degrading
      jobs and by observing the chela's egoistic responses.

      <<<Every inch of progress is self-achieved by the aspirant. It is up
      to the
      chela to consider, and accept those conditions of self-imposed
      discipline,
      which, in the case of the School of the White Brotherhood, have been
      tested
      and proved essential by many millennia of experience.>>>

      I agree with the first sentence, but the second sentence requires
      faith that I
      do not have. Two things are "essential:" (1) the guru must be
      qualified, and
      (2) the chela must accept every word from the guru as truth.


      <<<Once accepted, the chela has to make it his business to provide
      unswerving
      fidelity to the guru -- one, who for him is the embodiment
      of TRUTH and therefore of the LAW OF KARMA in its entirety. It is for
      this
      reason that the relation is called dangerous to the guru, and
      requires of the chela a careful and continuous observation of all
      virtues
      (paramitas).>>>

      Agreed.

      <<<It is difficult because the habits and ways of life and thinking
      (as a
      lower-manasic entity) of the chela have to be altered by his own
      efforts. In effect it is like living in a house (the personality)
      while it is
      being remodeled by the indwelling architect and artisan. The human
      will is
      employed to do this. Altruism and impartiality are the tools and
      measures
      employed.>>>

      Agreed although I would add compassion and selflessness to the
      "tools."

      =============

      DTB agreed

      =============


      <<<This is what I learned from the reading of those articles and of
      the KEY TO
      THEOSOPHY (HPB).>>>

      I learned from reading the lives of many gurus, and by being a chela
      myself.

      Have a good day,

      Jerry S.

      ===================

      Best wishes,

      Dallas


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