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57470Re: theos-talk Re:off topic yet revenant

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  • Augoeides-222@comcast.net
    Feb 4, 2012
      Jeremy, all,

      I don't remember who  posted that DK was nick named "The Tibetan" but it sparked my memory about Pyotr Badmaev who was famous in the days of the C zar' s, concurrent with time Madame Blavatsky was alive and it is a synchronicity the Badmaev was also affectionatel y nick named "The Tibetan". It seems the nick name travels a bit huh?



      Also my own personal view while not having a horse in the race in regard to true or false, right or wrong doctrines let me post a couple of links in order that some air may be cleared as to earlier origins of Madame Blavatsky's wonderful works that reveal very nice correspondents with what she wrote as incomplete as she states, this does not in my view mean did ont previous y exist or had been taught in fuller contents. There are I ave found several sources of the far past in the East that had famous revered Teachings that due to the reality of Metaphysics being the statement of Higher Intrinsic unasail able Transcendental or Cosmological First Princip als alwa s are found in true Teachings. Here are only two links which if read with open mind and compared to Blavatsky on e will find the framework of similar outline of Doctrine. This is only one example from one older Paradigma, other like Buddhism are also very similar.

         There is not always aligment of present day views to the Parents who gifted mankind these to the western peoples obscure thought forms, like the 4 stages of the Buddhist Arhat, the Stream Swimmers, there are also 4 stages of Nirvana. And the higher Arhat has arrived to begin qualification as Bodhisattva rather that outright Buddhahood notwithstanding that we all are inherently buddha Principal possessing indexed to the apparency of location in a manisfested projection of a secondary universe.



      Five Acts of Siva' --- Tirumantirum



      >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TIRUMANTIRAM-TMTM04.htm<<<



      The Stem Substance ---- Akasha



      >>>http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/POTPOURRI.htm<<<



      As mentioned earlier in a members post a full complete discursive ancient vocabulary and text was not provided in order that understanding may be completed, spite not thy parents in their old age, they sti ll can instruct.



      Regards,

      John

      ----- Original Message -----


      From: "Jeremy Condick" <jpcondick2011@...>
      To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 1:13:58 PM
      Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question



      --- 7
      NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
      - By Basil Crump
      "...in reality Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own...
      Also Seven centres of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom,"
      "Harmony," "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism." The reader is constantly referred
      to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
      "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
      is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
      whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
      designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
      mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
      little or nothing and leads nowhere."  Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
      A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available theos-talk by jake j.

      JPC: 7. Mr Crump disputes "Seven centres of Logoic Force" discussed by Alice Bailey. Crump fails to research his work and once again misses, with drastic consequences for his contemporary and latter day students, the Secret Doctrine references to 'centres of force'. HPB herself in her masterpiece lucidly teaches on the seven planetary spirits the regents of the [planetary] seven rays and the planetary logi or logoic "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force". HPB clearly describes the seven wheels, the seven centres of force which incidentally apply to any atomic unit such as an atom, which is a logoic centre of force in its own right and relatively so according to HPB.
       
      She is clear, is she not, that the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)" are the planetary builders and identities of the Seven centres of Logoic Force for the force being logoic as emanating from the 'logoi' the planetary spirits before the throne, the "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders) [which rays she names in numerical order] producing "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force".
       
      Crump is responsible for bringing via certain group members of the theosophical society over many years a direct attack upon Alice Bailey and upon HPB' own words and therefore an attack on the Ashrams of the First ray and the second. Being In this instance that of the ashrams of Morya, KH and DK. Are the consequences of this clear. It is very clear that this is a minority core group of followers and following in the footsteps of Cleather and Crump condemn to the Black lodge the disseminations of HPB due to the condemnation of AAB her co inter ashramic disciple who were the First and Second Key holders respectively of the nineteenth and Twentieth century hierarchical thrusts of the Secret Doctrine. Far from Alice A Bailey misleading students "away from the real teaching" according to Clump and followers, she and HPB did the very exact opposite in tandem and under hierarchical and Karmic Law. Let it be stated that the greater theosophical group are in no way responsible or partake in this deplorable activity or state of affairs.
       
      "seven Dhyan-Chohanic centres of Force" SD2 739.
       
      "seven Dhyan Chohans." SD2 765.
       
      "seven procreative rays or powers (the logoi or builders)." SD1 80.
       
      "the celestial Logos, the "Heavenly Man," which evolves as a Compound Unit of Logoi." SD1 246.
       
      "Logoi, or the self-born." SD1 363.
       
      "the Elohim (collective Logoi)." SD1 375.
       
      "The process referred to as "the small wheels giving birth, one to the other," takes place in the sixth region from above, and on the plane of the most material world of all in the manifested Kosmos -- our terrestrial plane. These "Seven Wheels" are our planetary chain (see Commentary Nos. 5 and 6). By "Wheels" the various spheres and centres of forces are generally meant; but in this case they refer to our septenary ring." SD1 144.
       
      "By "centre," a centre of energy or a Cosmic focus is meant; when the so-called "Creation," or formation of a planet, is accomplished by that force which is designated by the Occultists LIFE." SD1 11.
       
      "In the Secret Doctrine the Heavenly Men are spoken of as:
      1.  Agents of creation. They are the totality of manifestation. - S. D., I, 470.
      2.  They are precosmic. - S. D., I, 470.
      3.  They are the sumtotal of solar and lunar entities. - S. D., I, 152, 470. Compare II, 374.
      4.  They are the seven Biblical Archangels.
       They are the seven Forces or creative Powers.
       They are the seven Spirits before the Throne.
       They are the seven Spirits of the Planets - S. D., I, 472, 153.
      5.  In Their totality They are the Secret Unpronounceable Name. - S. D., I, 473.
      6.  They are the collective Dhyan Chohans. - S. D., I, 477.
      7.  They are the seven Kumaras. The seven Rishis. - S. D., I, 493. III, 196, 327.
      8.  They are the Sons of Light - S. D., I, 521, 522.
      9.  They are the Hierarchy of creative Powers - S. D., I, 233.
      10. They are the veiled synthesis. - S. D., I, 362.
      11. They are our own planetary deities. - S. D., I, 153.
      12. They are all men, the product of other worlds. - S. D., I, 132.
      13. They are closely connected with the seven stars of the Great Bear. - S. D., I, 488. S. D., II, 332. II 579, 668. S. D., III, 195
      14. They are symbolized by circles - S. D., II, 582. I
      15. They are collectively the fallen Angels. - S. D., II, 284, 541. Treatise on Cosmic Fire. Alice Bailey and the Tibetan Master of the Wisdom, DK.
       
      "Each of the seven Rays of Light differentiates into seven making the forty-nine aspects of the logoic psychic nature, as it shews itself on the cosmic physical plane, and each of the seven Fires manifests as seven lesser Fires, making the forty-nine Fires referred to by H. P. B. in the Secret Doctrine (See S. D., 1, 567.). The seven Heavenly Men manifest each through seven lesser Entities, Who form the psychic centers." TCF 631.
       
      "We are taught that the highest Dhyan Chohans, or Planetary Spirits (beyond the cognizance of the law of analogy), are in ignorance of what lies beyond the visible planetary systems, since their essence cannot assimilate itself to that of worlds beyond our solar system." SD2 700.
       
      "the Dhyan Chohans, called in India Kumara." SD2 579.
       
      "If the Dhyan Chohans and all the invisible Beings -- the Seven Centres and their direct Emanations, the minor centres of Energy -- are the direct reflex of the ONE Light." SD1 635.
       
      "Thus, while Gods or Dhyan Chohans (Devas) proceed from the First Cause." SD2 108.
       
      "Seven Lords created Seven men; three Lords (Dhyan Chohans or Pitris) were holy and good, four less heavenly and full of passion." SD2 211.
       
      "All these belonged to the hierarchy of the so-called "Fiery Dragons of Wisdom," the Dhyan Chohans." SD2 280.  

       

      > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
      > From: jpcondick2011@...
      > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:28:33 +0000
      > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
      >
      >
      >
      > --- 7
      > NOTES ON A TREATISE ON COSMIC FIRE
      > - By Basil Crump
      > Introductory Postulates
      > These are stated to be "extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the
      > Proem in the first volume of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky." But in reality Mrs.
      > Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own, which includes a new set of so-called
      > Stanzas of Dzyan, a Solar Logos also called "God," a Triple Solar System consisting of
      > Father, Son and Holy Spirit, a Triple Human Being, and a triple Atom. Also Seven centres
      > of Logoic Force, and Seven Rays which include those of "Love -Wisdom," "Harmony,"
      > "Beauty and Art," and "Devotion and Abstract Idealism."
      >
      > The reader is constantly referred
      > to passages in the Secret Doctrine, but very few of the terms used, e.g., "Love-Wisdom,"
      > "Abstract Idealism," "Logoic," etc. ,etc., will be found there. (1) My impression is that this
      > is done to mislead the student into thinking that this work is on H.P. Blavatsky's lines,
      > whereas even a cursory examination shows that it is entirely different and is really
      > designed very cleverly to lead the student away from the real teaching and confuse his
      > mind with an imposing mass of apparently very learned information which really means
      > little or nothing and leads nowhere. The method is somewhat similar to, but less obvious
      > and more clever than, that of C. W. Leadbeater, but I think that the power behind is the
      > same, working with the same object on a different line for a more intellectual type of mind.
      > It is of considerable significance that Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant are frequently quoted,
      > and their Christ and World Teacher doctrines taken for granted.
      > Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
      > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
      >
      > JPC: 7. On the three fundamentals of the SD AAB writes... "Students are recommended to study them carefully; in this way their understanding of the Treatise will be greatly aided.TCF3." The Tibetan Master states..."These postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky (S.D., I, 42-44)". The postulates spoken of are the "Introductory postulates" of 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'. I strongly advise all students to read them and not to condemn them.
      >
      > This is because HPB herself advises that her two volume books on the 'Secret Doctrine' do not "complete the scheme" or "treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them" for they were a "PROLOGUE" to "prepare the readers mind" and this is due to predicted further work from her which largely didnt come and due to her personal prediction of final proof of the existence of the Gupta Veda per the twentieth century disciple to come . As the work of AAB was predicted by HPB to come in century the twentieth and that that disciple would be "far better fitted" it is only natural and logical that accordingly the "postulates are simply extensions of the three fundamentals to be found in the Proem in the first volume of the Secret Doctrine." These were predicted to come by HPB' own words.
      >
      > Again, she stated that her work was not "the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets." HPB even emphasises the fact that this is "needless to explain". One must then wonder why Basil Crump states in his and Cleathers defamation of trans himalayan teachings that "Mrs. Bailey develops whole cosmic scheme of her own". Had he or they read HPB' work correctly Crump and Cleather would understand what HPB wrote and possibly why she wrote it. They would conclude that AAB' work was the predicted second phase second key dissemination of the secret doctrine from a "disciple far better fitted" according to her own referenced words.
      >
      > HPB predicted in that coming work that the second psychological key will be turned just as she turned the first key "and no more". Crump and Cleather do not understand this but rather condemn the trans himalayan work to the red caps and left hand path, "the power behind" saying it "means little or nothing and leads nowhere." This is copied and replicated by later students of theosophy to this day. HPB said that the work was "to gigantic for one persone to accomplish" and that she "prepared the soil" for a later predicted disciple to come with a further installment, a karmic installment both in service to humanity.
      >
      > "Even the two volumes now issued do not complete the scheme, and these do not treat exhaustively of the subjects dealt with in them." SD1 vii.
      >
      > "It is needless to explain that this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety, but a select number of fragments of its fundamental tenets, special attention being paid to some facts which have been seized upon by various writers, and distorted out of all resemblance to the truth." SD1 viii.
      >
      > "It is almost unnecessary to state that only portions of the seven Stanzas are here given. Were they published complete they would remain incomprehensible to all save the few higher occultists." SD1 23.
      >
      > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
      >
      > "But these two volumes had to serve as a PROLOGUE, and prepare the reader's mind for those which shall now follow. In treating of Cosmogony and then of the Anthropogenesis of mankind..." SD2 797.
      >
      > "The work is too gigantic for any one person to undertake, far more to accomplish. Our main concern was simply to prepare the
      > soil. This, we trust we have done." SD2 797.
      >
      > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right
      > value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can
      > hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist,
      > July, 1881, p. 218.
      >
      >
      >
      > JPC.
      >
      >
      >
      > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: jpcondick2011@...
      > > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 22:28:37 +0000
      > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
      > >
      > >
      > > JPC: re any page reference failures not coming up with any meaning or reference there is some discrepancy between editions of the SD. Often a little searching will come up with the material. The Tibetan often gives a clarified more occult interpretation of obvious allegorical or mystical terms. The reader is advised to use discrimination and keen observation and interpretation as follows.
      > >
      > > "The planetary Logos of Venus loved the Earth so well that He incarnated and gave it perfect laws which were disregarded and rejected." (S.D. Vol. II, 38) Esoteric Astrology. 673.
      > >
      > > "As Venus has no satellites, it is stated allegorically, that "Asphujit" (this "planet") adopted the Earth, the progeny of the Moon, "who overgrew its parent and gave much trouble," a reference to the occult connection between the two. The Regent (of the planet) Sukra* loved his adopted child so well that he incarnated as Usanas and gave it perfect laws, which were disregarded and rejected in later ages." SD2 32.
      > >
      > > JPC comments upon the following:
      > > "Comments by the Compiler
      > > 1. That is to say, the persistent attempts, from within the "occult" ranks, to undercut
      > > the prestige of Madame Blavatsky and to substitute therefor others. This has many forms.
      > > The "Arcane School" is one of the two chief jaws of the current pincers. We hope to deal
      > > adequately with the other in a later brochure.
      > > 2. Mrs. Bailey came out in the open completely later on. The propaganda now
      > > specifically claims that she represented the same group, and that her followers do likewise.
      > > See Fate for June 1963. (The title on the cover is "Alice Bailey and the Master H.K."
      > > Inside one finds that it is the Master K.H.) Still later one Djwual Khul (variously spelled)
      > > appeared as the name of "The Tibetan". He is named in The Mahatma Letters as a chela
      > > of K.H. about to "graduate".
      > > 3. "Systemic" for "systematic" is one of those curious examples of illiteracy which
      > > appear here and there in the Bailey works; curious in view of her enormous literary output.
      > > However, it is perhaps not inapt. It is the word used by medical men in connection with
      > > disease." Victor Endersby. Special Paper, September 1963.
      > > A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby. Made available here by jake j.
      > >
      > > JPC: 1. HPB is held in highest esteem by the Tibetan and by AAB. Her book SD is regarded as her "masterpiece of esoteric truth". It is regarded as valuable and relevant to study to this day especially in conjunction with 'A Treatise on Cosmic Fire'.
      > >
      > > "The Secret Doctrine to which H.P.B. refers. The Entities dealt with in her masterpiece of esoteric truth are here revealed as cosmic, solar and planetary influences." EA 290.
      > >
      > > "A study of the Plan, as it appears at this time to be working out in the five kingdoms in nature. It will be apparent to you that the teaching connected with this group will be more definitely and academically occult in its significance than will be the case in the others, for it will be based upon information contained in The Secret Doctrine and in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. It will be founded upon certain premises contained in those volumes." EXT 59.
      > >
      > > JPC: 2. It has been clearly stated that the editorial in the Beacon magazine in error published the name of the Tibetan. See Discipleship in the New Age v1 781. A mistake and no more yet life moves on. The graduation was in taking the fifth degree initiation in 1875 as a Master of the Wisdom.
      > >
      > > JPC: 3. There is no illiteracy. This is not a plausible inference. Systemic is meant and systematic is how Endersby views it. A vast cosmological bridge and distinction unperceived by the non occult mind. Only the ignorant would infer or offer "disease" that clearly signifies their own prejudice and blind ignorance. Hardly so far a ringing endorsement for following students to refer to or endorse. Systemic suns are mentioned in SD and systemic cycles are mentioned in Lucifer. Systemic evolution is covered both in SD and TCF the latter being the work predicted and referenced word of HPB. It is a continuity of occult teachings of the trans himalayan brotherhood and "disease" does not rest well with that in the sense Endersby meant it. It is quite unfitting for him to do so and for later students to use it. Also, exoterically "systemic" covers any 'system' in regards to the Whole or its entirety.
      > >
      > > "This treatise is put out in the hope that it may prove useful to all broadminded seekers after truth and of value to all investigators into the subjective Source of all that which is tangibly objective. It aims to provide a reasonably logical plan of systemic evolution and to indicate to man the part he must play as an atomic unit in a great and corporate Whole." TCF xv.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
      > > > From: jpcondick2011@...
      > > > Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:10:59 +0000
      > > > Subject: RE: theos-talk Re: the Masonic Germain, Rakoczi question
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Yes, I do have contempt for Bailey. In my view it is all the effusions of the lower left-hand path type with _some_ knowledge and _some_ power to get a following, and wreck real Theosophy. Many write and quote about "brothers of the shadow," left-hand path, et. al., but sit right in the middle of it unawares (or perhaps not.) The "Left-handers" mostly are like mesmerizing used-car salesmen on the basic level, and not Darth-vadar types wearing a sign.
      > > >
      > > > > In case you missed it from a few weeks back, here is a link to Endersby's (a friend of Carrithers) and Cleather's critique on Bailey. There's little else I could or want to say that isn't in there.
      > > > >
      > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/37333476/A-Critique-of-Alice-Bailey-Endersby
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > - jake j.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > "Evidently, then, Mrs. Bailey and the "Tibetan" consider the scheme of evolution
      > > > offered in the Secret Doctrine as inadequate, and offer their own in its place. Apart from
      > > > the difficulty of discovering anything "systemic" at all in Cosmic Fire, it is quite clear that the
      > > > "Tibetan" (if he is really one) is not in agreement with the Trans-Himalayan Brotherhood.
      > > > In that case one would infer from what is said in the Mahatma Letters that he may belong
      > > > to the "Red Capped Brothers of the Shadow" (see Index under Dugpas). As K.H. says (p.
      > > > 322): "the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic
      > > > help from the Dugpas - in Bhutan and the Vatican!" Hence the Christian terminology that
      > > > characterizes some of their efforts in the realm of Occultism."
      > > > Alice Leighton Cleather. Basil Crump. Peking, February, 1929.
      > > >
      > > > JPC: Cleather and Crump make enormous leaps of the imagination resulting in an attack on the Teachings of AAB and the Tibetan DK. This is indicated as follows "The harm attempted on my Ashram has been more easily offset, and the source of hate which it represented failed in its attempt because of its general ill repute. It has been offset by love and understanding which is not so easily the case in a first ray attack." The above may not be the attack referred to be the Tibetan DK though could well represent similar. Love and understanding are key notes here used in this critique.
      > > >
      > > > Nowhere does AAB say or infer that the work of HPB is "inadequate" and this appears an invention of the writers Crump and Cleather. AAB does draw to the attention of the reader that HPB' work is preparatory and AAB' 'intermediate'. HPB states "These two volumes only constitute the work of a pioneer who has forced his way into the well-nigh impenetrable jungle of the virgin forests of the Land of the Occult. A commencement has been made..." It is also drawn to the readers attention in AAB' works that HPB herself indicates that she 'turned the first key and no further' and that in century the twentieth another disciple far better fitted will come.
      > > >
      > > > "One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "Isis." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya." SD1 xxxviii INTRODUCTORY. HPB.
      > > >
      > > > JPC: The term 'God' is presented for a western audience. It is representative of "Good" or graded logos. It is a generic term for a western audience and no more although detailed explanation of 'logi' are given so far as allowed for the second phase of the teachings. Ray two is named in sanskrit "Harikesa" yellow or golden haired being one understanding of the second ray ruling the Sun itself, and is given by HPB although this is disputed by Cleather and Crump. From their above works they say in disput "One may search in vain for Mrs. Bailey's "Ray of Love-Wisdom" in the S.D., and the references (p. 74) given to it concerning the "Love aspect of the Logos" contain nothing of the kind." One must recall that the works of AAB brought a great expansion of detail on the seven rays. HPB stated "Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros)." This is a reference to Fohat and the seven rays in his capacity as Love-Wisdom and the second great ray breath. Harikesa is clearly the second ray of love-wisdom that Cleather and Crump have missed yet have condemned all the same. Caution is needed where condemnation to the left hand path is made.
      > > >
      > > > "The names of the Seven Rays -- which are, Sushumna, Harikesa, Viswakarman, Viswatryarchas, Sannaddha, Sarvavasu and Swaraj." SD1 515.
      > > >
      > > > Sushumn� (Sk.). The solar ray�the first of the seven rays. Also the name of a spinal nerve which connects the heart with the Brahmarandra, and plays a most important part in Yoga practices.
      > > >
      > > > Svar�j (Sk.). The last or seventh (synthetical) ray of the seven solar rays; the same as Brahm�. These seven rays are the entire gamut of the seven occult forces (or gods) of nature, as their respective names well prove. These are: Sushumn� (the ray which transmits sunlight to the moon); Harikesha, Visvakarman, Visvatryarchas, Sannadhas, Sarv�vasu, and Svar�j. As each stands for one of the creative gods or Forces, it is easy to see how important were the functions of the sun in the eyes of antiquity, and why it was deified by the profane. Theosophical Glossary.
      > > >
      > > > "A bright star dropped from the heart of Eternity; the beacon of hope on whose Seven Rays hang the Seven Worlds of Being." SD1 120.
                                                     

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