Re: [t93] The State of Thelema Today
- View SourceOn Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Nicholas Kroll <krollnm@...> wrote:
> I don't need to go very in-depth on this, but his name is still knownSeparating the movement from the man is like trying to deal with
> in the general public. My experience suggests that few in the 18 - 25
> group know who he was (which helps) but it is hard to separate the man from
> Thelema, and he puts people off. His writing style is honestly above the
> common reading ability in the United States, and this is also a hurdle.
> Key people for any group/organization/ideology/belief system need to have
> positive public appeal for the public to accept them, and Crowley does not
> have positive appeal.
Christianity without the apostles. It is what it is.
> It is explained to us that while it is wrong to proselytize, *The Law is for All* and it is oursI suppose it depends on what "All" is in practice.
> to give.
The sodding mass of humanity at large can do what they please,
including accept it.
The popularity is irrelevant if the system works for you - or if it
doesn't. Popular and doesn't work: a waste of time.
> A friend of mine looked at me with shock when I told him thatSo what if it is?
> I had accepted The Law of Thelema, and his immediate question was "Isn't
> Thelema left hand path?"
> It's hard to know where to begin with Thelema if you are on your own:So you've got access to more than the vast majority of people for
> I'm new to Thelema. I have no mentor, no group of Thelemites that I
> speak with outside of the internet, and no background in Golden Dawn
three or four generations.
Hermetic.com alone will give you more than a starting point.
> While digital fileCutting and pasting, or clicking "save as" whether in HTML or pdf is
> transfer is easy for actual documents, it takes some effort to acquire
> off-line versions of these publications.
so very hard.
> Also consider the limitations onSo read one on your device, print it out, have it bound yourself, or whatever.
> reading these files, books have higher portability. On top of that, there
> is definitely something to be said for being about to go into a bookstore
> and *find* a copy of a particular book.
Bookstores are dying.
> I understand that for now weNo issue at all at this point. Every man can be Gutenberg.
> shouldn't expect to find even the in print Book of The Law in our nearest
> Barnes and Noble due to the low demand, but the key issue is availability
> of core documents in hard copy form.
Every man can distribute the entirety of the works of note of the man
on a single thumb drive.
And most of the A.`.A.`. reading list, stuff mentioned in footnotes,
etc. and the like are now available too.
This is the golden age of information availabilty. Take some time to read it.
- View Sourcerelevant link Dis of Hadean Press pointed out re a parallel conversation
On 8 April 2013 11:14, Jake Stratton-Kent
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Speaking as a long time spokesman for a progressive and non-sectarian
> tendency in C20th Thelema, my thoughts are briefly as follows. Thelema is
> largely a victim of the OTO's success - its identity frozen in time while
> the world moves on. The one thing organised Thelema should have managed
> easily was forming a vanguard of modern magic, in this it has manifestly
> The level of contemporary scholarship and progressive thinking available
> to the modern neo-pagan and grimoire based communities outstripped Thelemic
> writing a decade or so back. One official addition to the 'official'
> Curriculum since 1947 - and that completely doctrinaire - pretty much says
> it all.
> One of the two vehicles of Thelema should be capable of engaging with more
> than the inherited documents of the 1875-1947 era; one won't, the other
> can't - time to look elsewhere.
> On 25 March 2013 03:24, Nicholas Kroll <krollnm@...> wrote:
>> <josephwilliammarek wrote>
>> >There should be more Thelemites in the world than what there are right
>> now. I feel that because of the factors I outlined, the advent of the New
>> �on is behind schedule.
>> There is a list of reasons for why Thelema has as few followers as it
>> My understanding (based entirely on personal experience) suggests the
>> following as key:
>> - Crowley makes a terrible front-man
>> - Thelema is *obscure*
>> - It is hard to know where to begin with Thelema if you are on your own
>> - Availability of our Class A publications
>> Crowley makes a terrible front-man:
>> I don't need to go very in-depth on this, but his name is still known
>> in the general public. My experience suggests that few in the 18 - 25
>> group know who he was (which helps) but it is hard to separate the man
>> Thelema, and he puts people off. His writing style is honestly above the
>> common reading ability in the United States, and this is also a hurdle.
>> Key people for any group/organization/ideology/belief system need to have
>> positive public appeal for the public to accept them, and Crowley does not
>> have positive appeal.
>> Thelema is *obscure*:
>> It may be an assumption based on anecdotal evidence, but if you
>> randomly picked ten people whom you don't know and asked them if they have
>> even *heard* of Thelema, I'm sure none of them would say yes. Who's fault
>> is this? It is certainly not the fault of the general public. How can a
>> person seek something that they do not know about? It is explained to us
>> that while it is wrong to proselytize, *The Law is for All* and it is ours
>> to give. This suggests to me that we may promulgate The Law, but it is to
>> be freely accepted.
>> Furthermore, even with those of whom I have found even slightly aware
>> of the teachings of Crowley there is much misunderstanding over what
>> Thelema is. A friend of mine looked at me with shock when I told him that
>> I had accepted The Law of Thelema, and his immediate question was "Isn't
>> Thelema left hand path?" This may not be the norm with occultists, but
>> this is the format of reaction I have received multiple times. This speaks
>> as significant to me, and I'm curious about your own experiences with
>> It's hard to know where to begin with Thelema if you are on your own:
>> I'm new to Thelema. I have no mentor, no group of Thelemites that I
>> speak with outside of the internet, and no background in Golden Dawn
>> Magick. I found Thelema while looking for something else, and a few months
>> in I still feel like there is something that I'm not aware of and should
>> be. I've found multiple reading lists which differ on suggested reading
>> order and content for a proper orientation. And while there are trends in
>> these reading lists, they vary greatly in scope and orientation. There are
>> many questions that don't get answered fully by an uncommitted and
>> anonymous connections on the internet, and let's face it: there is a lot
>> reading to be done. For a person who has only recently found Thelema and
>> wishes to learn more and progress in their understanding, there is a lot
>> potential confusion on what the next step is for study and even on who's
>> writing is credible. The Abrahamic religions have an advantage in that one
>> can go to any bookstore and find their core holy scriptures in a
>> convenient, monolithic volume. Take note: the reading order in these
>> volumes is already established.
>> Availability of our Class A publications:
>> I understand that there was a method by which our Class A publications
>> were published, but we're facing the issue of out-of-print and
>> expensive-to-purchase in regards to these. This is a hurdle. Yes, we have
>> The Book of The Law still in print, but what of some of the other tomes we
>> treasure? Look at the prices of these books on amazon or ebay. One with
>> internet access and knowledge of search engines can get around the cost of
>> books via various websites, but there is something to be said for having a
>> good hard bound holy book to study or reference. While digital file
>> transfer is easy for actual documents, it takes some effort to acquire
>> off-line versions of these publications. Also consider the limitations on
>> reading these files, books have higher portability. On top of that, there
>> is definitely something to be said for being about to go into a bookstore
>> and *find* a copy of a particular book. I understand that for now we
>> shouldn't expect to find even the in print Book of The Law in our nearest
>> Barnes and Noble due to the low demand, but the key issue is availability
>> of core documents in hard copy form.
>> New Aeon behind schedule though? Hardly. It'll get here when it does.
>> I may not have a perfect understanding of this issue, but I'm willing to
>> share what I've seen in order to start a proper conversation on this.
>> Other people's opinions on this matter:
>> Nicholas M. Kroll
>> (989) 708 7065
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:09 AM, josephwilliammarek <
>> josephwilliammarek@...> wrote:
>> > **
>> > It is my opinion that Aleister Crowley's constant desire to upset normal
>> > folk, and his unyielding need to rebel against his parents' religion,
>> > many people away. I feel that a lot of individuals would have been
>> drawn to
>> > Thelema if not for his attitude. I also feel his followers made things
>> > worse, mimicked his worse habits and attitudes without having his
>> > intelligence and comprehension.
>> > The total world population is just over 7 billion. The total worldwide
>> > headcount of Thelemites is probably less than over 4,000. There should
>> > more Thelemites in the world than what there are right now. I feel that
>> > because of the factors I outlined, the advent of the New �on is behind
>> > schedule. The New �on should be further along, there should be more
>> > Thelemites than what exists today. We are not at the proper "space
>> mark". I
>> > don't think writing a book, or starting a new Magical Order will return
>> > things to the proper space mark. It will take magick, Big Magick!
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- View SourceRobert Furtkamp wrote:
"Do the Work. Your Work.
The universe will reveal itself to you."
Most useful comment I've seen on this forum in years. Well done!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]