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Re: [t93] The State of Thelema Today

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  • Robert Furtkamp
    ... Separating the movement from the man is like trying to deal with Christianity without the apostles. It is what it is. ... I suppose it depends on what
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 8 1:13 AM
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      On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Nicholas Kroll <krollnm@...> wrote:

      > I don't need to go very in-depth on this, but his name is still known
      > in the general public. My experience suggests that few in the 18 - 25
      > group know who he was (which helps) but it is hard to separate the man from
      > Thelema, and he puts people off. His writing style is honestly above the
      > common reading ability in the United States, and this is also a hurdle.
      > Key people for any group/organization/ideology/belief system need to have
      > positive public appeal for the public to accept them, and Crowley does not
      > have positive appeal.

      Separating the movement from the man is like trying to deal with
      Christianity without the apostles. It is what it is.
      > It is explained to us that while it is wrong to proselytize, *The Law is for All* and it is ours
      > to give.

      I suppose it depends on what "All" is in practice.

      The sodding mass of humanity at large can do what they please,
      including accept it.

      Or not.

      The popularity is irrelevant if the system works for you - or if it
      doesn't. Popular and doesn't work: a waste of time.

      > A friend of mine looked at me with shock when I told him that
      > I had accepted The Law of Thelema, and his immediate question was "Isn't
      > Thelema left hand path?"

      So what if it is?

      > It's hard to know where to begin with Thelema if you are on your own:

      > I'm new to Thelema. I have no mentor, no group of Thelemites that I
      > speak with outside of the internet, and no background in Golden Dawn
      > Magick.

      So you've got access to more than the vast majority of people for
      three or four generations.

      Hermetic.com alone will give you more than a starting point.

      > While digital file
      > transfer is easy for actual documents, it takes some effort to acquire
      > off-line versions of these publications.

      Cutting and pasting, or clicking "save as" whether in HTML or pdf is
      so very hard.

      > Also consider the limitations on
      > reading these files, books have higher portability. On top of that, there
      > is definitely something to be said for being about to go into a bookstore
      > and *find* a copy of a particular book.

      So read one on your device, print it out, have it bound yourself, or whatever.

      Bookstores are dying.

      > I understand that for now we
      > shouldn't expect to find even the in print Book of The Law in our nearest
      > Barnes and Noble due to the low demand, but the key issue is availability
      > of core documents in hard copy form.

      No issue at all at this point. Every man can be Gutenberg.

      Every man can distribute the entirety of the works of note of the man
      on a single thumb drive.

      And most of the A.`.A.`. reading list, stuff mentioned in footnotes,
      etc. and the like are now available too.

      This is the golden age of information availabilty. Take some time to read it.
    • Jake Stratton-Kent
      relevant link Dis of Hadean Press pointed out re a parallel conversation http://nick-farrell.blogspot.it/2013/04/top-10-signs-that-your-magical-order-is.html
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 8 8:21 AM
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        relevant link Dis of Hadean Press pointed out re a parallel conversation

        http://nick-farrell.blogspot.it/2013/04/top-10-signs-that-your-magical-order-is.html

        Jake

        http://www.underworldapothecary.com/


        On 8 April 2013 11:14, Jake Stratton-Kent
        <jakestrattonkent@...>wrote:

        >
        > Speaking as a long time spokesman for a progressive and non-sectarian
        > tendency in C20th Thelema, my thoughts are briefly as follows. Thelema is
        > largely a victim of the OTO's success - its identity frozen in time while
        > the world moves on. The one thing organised Thelema should have managed
        > easily was forming a vanguard of modern magic, in this it has manifestly
        > failed.
        >
        > The level of contemporary scholarship and progressive thinking available
        > to the modern neo-pagan and grimoire based communities outstripped Thelemic
        > writing a decade or so back. One official addition to the 'official'
        > Curriculum since 1947 - and that completely doctrinaire - pretty much says
        > it all.
        >
        > One of the two vehicles of Thelema should be capable of engaging with more
        > than the inherited documents of the 1875-1947 era; one won't, the other
        > can't - time to look elsewhere.
        >
        >
        >
        > Jake
        >
        > http://www.underworldapothecary.com/
        >
        >
        > On 25 March 2013 03:24, Nicholas Kroll <krollnm@...> wrote:
        >
        >> **
        >>
        >>
        >> <josephwilliammarek wrote>
        >>
        >> >There should be more Thelemites in the world than what there are right
        >> now. I feel that because of the factors I outlined, the advent of the New
        >> �on is behind schedule.
        >> </quote>
        >>
        >> There is a list of reasons for why Thelema has as few followers as it
        >> does.
        >> My understanding (based entirely on personal experience) suggests the
        >> following as key:
        >> - Crowley makes a terrible front-man
        >> - Thelema is *obscure*
        >> - It is hard to know where to begin with Thelema if you are on your own
        >> - Availability of our Class A publications
        >>
        >> Crowley makes a terrible front-man:
        >> I don't need to go very in-depth on this, but his name is still known
        >> in the general public. My experience suggests that few in the 18 - 25
        >> group know who he was (which helps) but it is hard to separate the man
        >> from
        >> Thelema, and he puts people off. His writing style is honestly above the
        >> common reading ability in the United States, and this is also a hurdle.
        >> Key people for any group/organization/ideology/belief system need to have
        >> positive public appeal for the public to accept them, and Crowley does not
        >> have positive appeal.
        >>
        >> Thelema is *obscure*:
        >> It may be an assumption based on anecdotal evidence, but if you
        >> randomly picked ten people whom you don't know and asked them if they have
        >> even *heard* of Thelema, I'm sure none of them would say yes. Who's fault
        >> is this? It is certainly not the fault of the general public. How can a
        >> person seek something that they do not know about? It is explained to us
        >> that while it is wrong to proselytize, *The Law is for All* and it is ours
        >> to give. This suggests to me that we may promulgate The Law, but it is to
        >> be freely accepted.
        >> Furthermore, even with those of whom I have found even slightly aware
        >> of the teachings of Crowley there is much misunderstanding over what
        >> Thelema is. A friend of mine looked at me with shock when I told him that
        >> I had accepted The Law of Thelema, and his immediate question was "Isn't
        >> Thelema left hand path?" This may not be the norm with occultists, but
        >> this is the format of reaction I have received multiple times. This speaks
        >> as significant to me, and I'm curious about your own experiences with
        >> this.
        >>
        >> It's hard to know where to begin with Thelema if you are on your own:
        >> I'm new to Thelema. I have no mentor, no group of Thelemites that I
        >> speak with outside of the internet, and no background in Golden Dawn
        >> Magick. I found Thelema while looking for something else, and a few months
        >> in I still feel like there is something that I'm not aware of and should
        >> be. I've found multiple reading lists which differ on suggested reading
        >> order and content for a proper orientation. And while there are trends in
        >> these reading lists, they vary greatly in scope and orientation. There are
        >> many questions that don't get answered fully by an uncommitted and
        >> anonymous connections on the internet, and let's face it: there is a lot
        >> of
        >> reading to be done. For a person who has only recently found Thelema and
        >> wishes to learn more and progress in their understanding, there is a lot
        >> of
        >> potential confusion on what the next step is for study and even on who's
        >> writing is credible. The Abrahamic religions have an advantage in that one
        >> can go to any bookstore and find their core holy scriptures in a
        >> convenient, monolithic volume. Take note: the reading order in these
        >> volumes is already established.
        >>
        >> Availability of our Class A publications:
        >> I understand that there was a method by which our Class A publications
        >> were published, but we're facing the issue of out-of-print and
        >> expensive-to-purchase in regards to these. This is a hurdle. Yes, we have
        >> The Book of The Law still in print, but what of some of the other tomes we
        >> treasure? Look at the prices of these books on amazon or ebay. One with
        >> internet access and knowledge of search engines can get around the cost of
        >> books via various websites, but there is something to be said for having a
        >> good hard bound holy book to study or reference. While digital file
        >> transfer is easy for actual documents, it takes some effort to acquire
        >> off-line versions of these publications. Also consider the limitations on
        >> reading these files, books have higher portability. On top of that, there
        >> is definitely something to be said for being about to go into a bookstore
        >> and *find* a copy of a particular book. I understand that for now we
        >> shouldn't expect to find even the in print Book of The Law in our nearest
        >> Barnes and Noble due to the low demand, but the key issue is availability
        >> of core documents in hard copy form.
        >>
        >> New Aeon behind schedule though? Hardly. It'll get here when it does.
        >>
        >> I may not have a perfect understanding of this issue, but I'm willing to
        >> share what I've seen in order to start a proper conversation on this.
        >>
        >> Other people's opinions on this matter:
        >> http://iaurelian.blogspot.com/2008/03/where-can-thelema-spread.html
        >> http://iao131.com/2010/05/07/principles-of-promulgation/
        >>
        >> Nicholas M. Kroll
        >> (989) 708 7065
        >>
        >>
        >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 7:09 AM, josephwilliammarek <
        >> josephwilliammarek@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> > **
        >>
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > It is my opinion that Aleister Crowley's constant desire to upset normal
        >> > folk, and his unyielding need to rebel against his parents' religion,
        >> drove
        >> > many people away. I feel that a lot of individuals would have been
        >> drawn to
        >> > Thelema if not for his attitude. I also feel his followers made things
        >> > worse, mimicked his worse habits and attitudes without having his
        >> > intelligence and comprehension.
        >> >
        >> > The total world population is just over 7 billion. The total worldwide
        >> > headcount of Thelemites is probably less than over 4,000. There should
        >> be
        >> > more Thelemites in the world than what there are right now. I feel that
        >> > because of the factors I outlined, the advent of the New �on is behind
        >> > schedule. The New �on should be further along, there should be more
        >> > Thelemites than what exists today. We are not at the proper "space
        >> mark". I
        >> > don't think writing a book, or starting a new Magical Order will return
        >> > things to the proper space mark. It will take magick, Big Magick!
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alamantra
        Robert Furtkamp wrote: Do the Work. Your Work. Don t speculate. Do. The universe will reveal itself to you. Most useful comment I ve seen on this forum in
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 8 7:42 PM
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          Robert Furtkamp wrote:

          "Do the Work. Your Work.

          Don't speculate.

          Do.

          The universe will reveal itself to you."


          Most useful comment I've seen on this forum in years. Well done!

          Alamantra





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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