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Cordiality and 'Thelemic Rights'

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  • nagasiva.yronwode
    I was party to a conversation within a Thelemic Facebook group ( Ordo Templi Orientis - O.T.O. ; I am not aware that it is in any way officially connected with
    Message 1 of 2 , May 31, 2011
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      I was party to a conversation within a Thelemic Facebook group ("Ordo Templi Orientis - O.T.O."; I am not aware that it is in any way officially connected with any OTO), and the issue of "Thelemic rights" was raised, particularly regarding the right to be initiated to III' within (c)OTO and how this might conflict with the interests of that order's administration.

      I thought to respond civilly and egotistically therein (having already brought moderation to myself in reflection of the ecclesia) and to see if there were different perspectives than the one which i could bring to the conversation available. I offer this up for you here and welcome your reflections/responses in part with the hope that the occasional substantive posting to this forum might be retained, perhaps with repostings ('Best of'?) more private environs:


      first off, there is a fairly strong emphasis on the movement of initiates through the rungs of 0', I', and into II' if they are of 'good report', sufficient age (the 'adult' part of your specificity i am sure), and the administrative details may be effected properly (fees paid, initiators / sponsors secured, proper duration between initiations waited, and any other ordeal-oriented initiatic prerequisites met, etc.).

      secondly, it is my understanding (perhaps mistaken) that not all candidates will be ready for III' or in fact appendant IV' through IV'pi (all voluntary) degrees on account of character and place in life let alone their position in respect of the order, though ordinarily there is a welcoming character provided for this.

      thirdly and most importantly, it is incumbent upon those who seek out this initiation to remember that these degrees have contents with meaning, inclusive of vows all who engage may be expected to take seriously. while they may be interpreted by the True Will of the individual in question, there is an overarching order policy about this interpretation, and it may include standards about how we interact with one another.

      additionally, and with specific reference to your complaint concerning 'Thelemic rights', these are in no way guaranteed, to my knowledge, within the OTO (please offer correction if i err), even though documents like "Liber OZ" might be valued and emphasized. Yet there are dynamics of struggle embraced ("As brothers fight ye!"), and requirements of endorsement such that unpopular or particularly hostile individuals might receive less hearty a welcome and less cooperative an initiatic trajectory on account of the manner of our approach (even if they appear otherwise to be *spies*!).

      I would like to testify briefly as to the health of my order. I am the Black Brother (Nigris) of the (c)OTO. I am strongly critical of the Beast, supportive of the detractors of the (c)OTO, especially as they can muster some kind of rational case against it, and i am a cheerleader for the function and empowerment of the Revolutionaries within our order's structure. I am sometimes over-aggressive in my pursuits yet try to retain some humility. I will never be a part of the OTO Church (EGC) to my knowledge (disliking its 'spin' upon the integrity of the whole and demand for special attention), yet i count as some of my dearest kin (sisters!) those who have a firm interest in the OTO's church and respect them for it. I am, by and large, treated properly and with respect despite all of these deficits of my posture which i bring to the (c)OTO. I mark this in its favour, appreciate its continued existence, and admire its ability to continue to persistently abide someone such as i as part of its membership.

      all that said, I agree with contentions that civil discourse is valuable, cordial and mature disagreement may be expected of those who are visitors, or part of order functions and extended projects, and have noticed that by far the bulk of those who draw the ire and rankling from those charged to effect administrative moderation are deserving of correction by virtue of their artless clamour, vulgar mannerism, and general disrespect. as within any social aggregate, rights are never actually inalienable, but earned, and 'Thelemic rights' are likewise socially mediated.

      nigris (nagasiva yronwode)
    • Bozidar
      Support This Thelemite! Stipe Ivkovic- Arrested in his country for speaking out in opposition of the pope. by
      Message 2 of 2 , Jun 1, 2011
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        Support This Thelemite! Stipe Ivkovic- Arrested in his country for
        speaking out in opposition of the pope.

        by <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000350191315>Frater Oz
        on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 at 5:38am

        I have had a fair bit of contact with Stipe over the last couple of
        years, and can say that he doesn't deserve to be incarcerated. He has
        expressed concerns to me on more than one occasion that something
        like this could happen to him.

        Reposted from The "Liber Oz" page (originally done by Allen
        Greenfield). I have added a full translation of the news article, and
        removed the "Pope was a Nazi" photos...

        "Our brother in Croatia, Stipe Ivkovic, has been arrested in advance
        of a visit to that country by the current Pope. As faras I can tell -
        and I know Stipe well - his only "crime" is having made critical
        comments on the Pope on his Facebook page. His home was broken into,
        a gun inherited from his father (doubtless from the time of the
        Balkan Wars) was treated as if a threat, and Stipe faces serious jail
        time. For what? "Police in Zadar on Saturday changed versions of the
        story on the occasion of breaking into a house Stipe I. First they
        said they filed charges against only 22-year-old father because they
        are in the home found unregistered guns and that no application
        against the boys, because they found that there is no basis for it.
        What changed in the meantime, the police say they do not know.
        "Suspend the public interest, the Pope said in the first place..."
        (loose translation of local report.)"

        "The whole world is watching Croatia. Shame on you. Free Stipe
        Ivkovic! Go to his Facebook site yourself, and see if you find
        anything other than dissent. Then write Amnesty International, the
        Croatian Government and the Pope!"

        Reference -

        * Amnesty International - <http://www.amnesty.org/>http://www.amnesty.org/
        * Republic of Croatia - <http://www.vlada.hr/en>http://www.vlada.hr/en
        * Papal Address -

        Here is a crappy translation of the news article (now updated to a
        better translation)...

        If you have an opinion about the visit of Pope Ratzinger to Croatia,
        if you're not thrilled with his character and deed, do not publicly
        share your opinions on Facebook, because police could come knocking
        on your door.

        He called it the afflicted ( translation: sick, perhaps?) and
        garbage. Is this a call for assassination?

        Zadar police spokesman confirmed that Elis odan confirmed to Index
        that they filed a criminal complaint against the 22-year-old Stipe I
        for racial and other discrimination, because he was allegedly writing
        threatening messages on Facebook against the Pope, like the one that
        was "miserably and disgusting trash."

        Police in Zadar on Saturday, changed several versions of the story on
        the occasion of breaking into the family house of Stipe I. First they
        said they filed charges only against the 22-year-old father because
        they found unregistered guns in the home and stated that there is no
        allegation against the boy, because they found that there is no basis
        for it. What changed in the meantime, the police do not say.

        *Suspend the public interest, the Pope is in the first place

        We asked the police what specific FB-status prompted them to raid a
        private family house, so that other citizens know what NOT to write
        to keep this from happening to them. The odan spokesman said that he
        is not allowed to say anything, because the criminal proceeding is
        pending. Police, let's recall, on Saturday also refused to say what
        young man wrote that was so frightening, and at that time they were
        not deflected with the phrase "a criminal proceeding is pending,"
        because he wasn't charged.

        "In this case, we suspend the public's interest to know, because our
        Holy Father's stay is the number one security issue," said odan.

        *If the police responded this way to similar cases, they would be
        raiding the flats of thousands internet forums participants.

        He added that the police is by duty responding to similar threats,
        but this statement is hardly true: then only on Internet forums where
        there is a fierce debate about the Pope's arrival, they could find
        thousands of people, get court orders, break into homes and file
        criminal charges of hatred and discrimination.

        Zadar police actually told us that the right to freedom of expression
        on the Internet is temporarily suspended, at least until the Pope
        leaves Croatia.

        Police, however, continue to state that Stipe I. threatened to
        assassinate the Pope.
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