Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Tarot Comparisons

Expand Messages
  • threefold31
    ... Dwtw Nagasiva, as usual, has plenty to say about this (or any) subject. And while I respect his erudition, it is disheartening to see my statements
    Message 1 of 46 , Aug 29, 2009
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "nagasiva yronwode" <nagasiva@...> wrote:
      >
      > dayp
      >
      > "threefold31" <threefold31@> (R Leo Gillis):

      >
      > > This was illegitimate, because if you're
      > > grafting something onto the Tarot order,
      > > then you have to switch what you're grafting,
      > > not vice-versa. But this was their only
      > > mistake, and the adept could easily switch
      > > them back to layout the cards in TdM order
      > > instead.
      >
      > this is nonsense. there never was any 'legitimacy'
      > to the gaming decks, including the TdM. occultists
      > pretended that they were esoteric and full of
      > wisdom, but in fact they weren't, and the reason
      > the GD Switch was conceived was because of the
      > obvious matching symbolism between game cardd
      > and zodiac after occult associations were matched.
      >

      >
      > > The Tarot de Marseille order is the correct
      > > one, and really shouldn't be messed with.
      >
      > nonsense. the Fool then would have no number.
      > the Hanged Man would then be IIX (nonsense).
      > next you'll be telling us that the reason for
      > the GD Switch ws because you were named Leo.
      >
      > > If you want to graft Hebrew onto it, fine,
      > > but you make it all a mess when you change
      > > the order of the cards themselves,
      >
      > this is wrong. the cards are a game and
      > absolutely arbitrary. the game was being
      > turned INTO an esoteric tool, and the
      > imperative sequences are the ones relating
      > to the real world (zodiac) and the social
      > world (Hebrew).
      >
      > > which are a specific sequence with
      > > specific reasons behind it, as occult
      > > as those reasons might be. ...
      >
      > this is a lie, an error, a falsity. before
      > de Gebelin there was never even the concept
      > of such an esotericism associated with the
      > Tarot (the 22 resonance drawing attention).
      > one might as well explain that the reason
      > there are 22 non-utility/non-railroad
      > properties in Monopoly is because it has
      > some kind of important occult reason
      > behind it that should not be futzed with.
      > this is nonsense and completely unsupported,
      > as is the balance of your expression.
      >
      > 333
      >
      >


      Dwtw

      Nagasiva, as usual, has plenty to say about this (or any) subject. And while I respect his erudition, it is disheartening to see my statements misunderstood to the point where they are regurgitated in a corrupt form, and then criticized because they do not conform to his conclusions about the Tarot.

      So to be clear, I am NOT of the camp that believes the Tarot had any esoteric origin. All the later grafting of Hebrew letters and their associated symbol sets of zodiac, planets, etc. was simply an attempt by various occultists, from the Comte de Mellet, to Eliphas Levi and the Golden Dawn, et. al. to expand the usefulness and meaning of the Tarot to include their variety of symbols.

      By the time we get to Crowley's attempts to 'rectify' the Tarot, we are dealing with the sequences found in the Cipher ms., and AC's understanding of it, followed by the admonition in Liber AL that 'Tzaddi is not the Star', etc. All switches, double loops, etc. found in Crowley's work has to be ultimately referenced back to his predecessors, all of whom had their own arrangements. But none of these was the 'original' Tarot, which was merely a trick-taking game, with no overt 'hermetic' correspondences.

      Perhaps some of my statements contain factual errors, which I'm grateful to have emended by superior scholarship, but this is different from putting words in my mouth and misreading what was said due to prior prejudice. And I am probably also guilty of misreading nagasiva's statements, but this is due as much to his convoluted and precious prose as it is to my own errors of comprehension.

      Now as far as all the various hints or blinds or just plain mistakes that AC left us in his various tables of correspondences, I tend to go with what was actually written on the cards as they were printed, which does not seem to be contradicted by the text of the Book of Thoth. AFAIK, the Emperor has a Tzaddi and an Aries symbol on it, and the imagery contains rams. Likewise the Star has a Heh and an Aquarius symbol on it, and the imagery contains two bowls of liquid being poured out. The cards are described in these terms in the text of TBOT. So I'll go with what is on the cards, not what discrepancies may be found in various tables.

      As for the 'illegitimacy' of swapping the Tarot sequence of VIII and XI, I am not claiming that the TdM order is 'legitimate' and later orders are not. An unfortunate choice of words. My point is simply that if one is trying to match up to an order, and then you change what you're matching to because you don't like it, that seems illegitimate, i.e., it seems like cheating. If you're the GD or Kenneth Mackenzie or whoever, and claiming the Tarot is an occult symbol set that has an importance hidden in its very sequence, then it seems like cheating to switch the order to conform to what you're grafting onto it. But then, the whole grafting of Hebrew, etc. onto Tarot is in a sense illegitimate, since there is no evidence that Hebrew and kabbalah has anything to do with the original Tarot. It's all an intellectual game in the end, and I was merely pointing out how the rules get bent so that things turn out in a certain way.

      On another note, now I'm not so sure of exactly what nagasiva's position is on this Heh-Tzaddi switch. I read all his convoluted responses on Tarot-L, and here, and I thought I knew, but I must confess that I'm no longer so sure.

      And in case anyone is unsure of what my position is, I'll just say that there are four different solutions to 'Tzaddi is not the star', based on the four ordeals one must go through to understand Liber AL.
      Even Liber 231 is only true up to the grade of Exempt Adept.

      And as for my moniker, my parents named me Leo. It's on the birth certificate. It is not an affectation like so many of the names encountered on this group. And I'm certain it has nothing to do with the Cipher ms. switch of the Tarot card sequence, or Crowley's switching of the cards back to where they were before. It has everything to do with a bad-ass paratrooper who killed a lot of Germans in Normandy, and survived the 'hole-in the doughnut' in Belgium, better known as the Battle of Bastogne.

      Love is the law
      Leo
    • Donald Correll
      Crowley Mass Song- We disciples of Aleister Crowly Gathered round his bier to pay respects, Pass strange drugs and sing ribald godsongs to chastise and to
      Message 46 of 46 , Oct 12, 2009
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Crowley Mass Song-

        We disciples of Aleister Crowly
        Gathered round his bier to pay respects,
        Pass strange drugs and sing ribald godsongs
        to chastise and to enflame to our intellects.
        Always thought I'd be one of Crowleys disciples,
        Doing Resh and Jugorum with great zest, slash, slash
        And when I retire I'll write class D publications
        and aspire to be a Magus like the rest.
        Crowley was strictly King James Bible,
        Classic beasthood by the book and bell
        Surely he foresaw in the direful eighties
        what the new age magick current would reveal.
        Drink to me I love you says the Goddess.
        Pass strange drugs and wine instructs Hadit
        Worship me with swords, spears and blood
        Says Ra Hoor, that our sleazy foes the Xters might be beat!
        Annihilate the Xtians is the watchword
        extirminate them to a living soul
        Annihilate the creeps says Ra Hoor Khuit
        and get on with sex and drugs and Rock and Roll.





        Is Aleister Crowley really dead,
        really dead.
        Did he do those terrible things they said,
        things they said.
        Is he but dust beneath the sod,
        beneath the sod.
        Or was Aleister Crowley really god?
        really god.

        Hark what's that shuffling host,
        shuffling host,.
        Good grief it's Aleister Crowleys ghost
        Crowleys ghost.
        Holy of holy is the game
        and Aleister Crowley is the name.
        Praise the name.

        Evoe Pan was his favorite Hymm,
        his favorite Hymm.
        Becaue it reminded him of him,
        him of him.
        Heroin was his favorite dope,
        it cures from love, peace and hope.
        and the pope.

        Is Aleister Crowley really dead,
        really dead.
        Did he do those terrible things they said,
        things they said.
        Is he but dust beneath the sod,
        beneath the sod.
        Or was Aleister Crowley really god?
        really god.

        Crowley had a wife her name was Rose
        her name was Rose.
        Tis sais she had a very pretty nose.
        pretty nose.
        And he himself regarded it with awe,
        It lead to the receiving of the law.
        The Book of the law.

        Twenty thousand feet over Chogo Ri,
        Chogo Ri.
        Crowley and Oscar Eckenstein laughed with glee,
        laughed with glee.
        Nobody else had climbed so high,
        One more step by god they'd touch the sky.

        Is Aleister Crowley really dead,
        really dead.
        Did he do those terrible things they said,
        things they said.
        Is he but dust beneath the sod,
        beneath the sod.
        Or was Aleister Crowley really god?
        really god.

        Victor Newburgh was his favorite accolyte
        Tis said he kept him late at night
        And when the eye of Horus he had kissed
        He cried I am a fundamentalist.

        Crowley had some squares of Abremelin.
        T'is said he used them to keep a dog from yelling.
        The beast of hell was the product of the fun.
        He cried by god look what I have done.

        Is Aleister Crowley really dead,
        really dead.
        Did he do those terrible things they said,
        things they said.
        Is he but dust beneath the sod,
        beneath the sod.
        Or was Aleister Crowley really god?
        really god.

        Nobody knows whos Lodge is whose.
        Nobody pays his fucking dues.
        There is only one thing I don't know,
        who's in charge of the bloody OTO.

        The last word on Crowley was Sashas
        For she was last to ever haul his ashes.
        One night in a fit of drunken Glee
        She dashed them 'neath that north NJ tree,
        A lone pine tree in Bergen County.

        Holy, Holy, Holy
        Aleister Crowley
        One hand to Malkuth,
        The other to the Crown





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.