E6 tom and thank you for your continued presence here,
tom chaudoin <taammuz@...> wrote:
> Once again, I observe that some of us have found ourselves at odds over an
> EQ system from AL. ...
expect it. any kind of superordinary methodology for obtaining knowledge will
be challenged by the rational, and the irrational will even challenge plain old
scientific knowledge such as that from archaeology and anthropology etc.,
often so as to bolster through supposed uncertainty their whacky ideologies.
> ... Liber AL has the ability to implant almost anyone into thinking they are the
> 'child of prophecy' foretold in the book,
I don't think it is the restricted power of Liber Al to do this. occultism by its
character attracts people who want to establish a special role with respect
to the cosmos, and Liber Al as written does include certain ambiguous and
restricted avenues for this specialness to develop, whether by puzzle-solving
or being the reincarnation of The Master, or by identification with some LAM.
the methods of religion are multiplex and astoundingly unpredictable.
> and as such, it is reasonable to expect that other individuals, in the future,
> are likely to devise or 'excise' further alphanumeric systems from AL which
> also will contain vast number symmetry which will yield massive tautological
> structure from the numbers and letters in the text.
or some other text that they consider worthy, such as the Gospel of Satan.
> Given that, what I find distasteful is the constant, aggressive militation
> against other systems in favor of one's own, based largely, or soley,
> on data which does not relate fully to the text, but to one's own name
> and details of one's own life, timeline etc.
the criteria are largely personally constructed, selective, and arbitrary.
whether they are analyzed so as to justify one's contentions by some
computer or intuited by one's resolved and confirming AEonic Dream
is almost of no consequence when the glamour comes over you. that
enthusiasm can drive one to make all kinds of ridiculous claims, and
it may inspire also to the kinds of 'knock this crown that i have put
upon my head off if you dare' attitude that sometimes makes itself
evident in forums such as this.
it can be amusing. we created an 'AEonic Prophets' yahoogroup at
one point for all of us showing up with credentials and it started a
rousing and noisy contention-fest. eventually the levelled character
of the group led to one of us seizing control and booting the rest,
then dissolving the thing. King of the Hill is apparently a favourite
pastime of the Thelemic.
> ... revealing the 'personality of the seer' within the scheme of
> your solutions, I too have been equally guilty of these
'guilty' is too strong a word. the nature of them is such that anyone
else taking them very seriously wants to be led around by the nose;
it is the process of cultism rearing its ugly head. the Method of
Religion plays out in the public market what is in general better kept
a narcissism of the private calculator, shared with amused friends.
this does not, however, mean that it deserves ridicule or argument.
more on that below.
> ...these systems should reveal a workability in their theurgic
> applications, rather in their synchronistic connections to any
> single individual,
they should promote gods but not individual prophets? I don't
know that i like the sound of that. it seems that you would
rather serve a community purpose than one grounded in
self-serving egotism. in general i agree with the skeptical
line about all of it, and where it comes to ungrounded special
claims for one's role that *requires others to somehow make
allowances or grant authority over others*, i can easily agree.
i do think there is an important dynamic that is constructed
in divinatory application for those whose role is personal with
respect to the cosmos (a kind of Oath of the Abyss if you like)
which should not be opposed by us as a viewer of someone
else's process JUST because it revolves around their person.
if anything, i would suggest that the proper response to the
problem of rampant egotistical claimsmaking isn't to try to
downplay *individual* synchronistic or gematric calculative
results, but to moderate the response to precisely the level
of insistence we can discern from the individual about the
special treatment that they are demanding from *us*.
that is, when someone is just making a special role claim,
such as mine that i am the Sorcerer Supreme of this dimension
(after the Doctor Strange comic, i don't think that Stephen
Strange, who was a surgeon, demanded special treatment
*after* he became the Sorcerer Supreme), as an observer of
their trip i just smile, nod, and say 'interesting' and move on.
how am i to know if they are or are not in such as role?
remember that the Doc mindwiped the greater portion of
the normals so they would never find out anyways. lol
instead, if someone says that they are *and* demands that i
take their word on a given bit of data, or that i kow-tow to
their exalted authority, then i am, by my standards, immediately
given reason to challenge their authority and ask them to justify
their ridiculous demands. if they can't to my satisfaction, then
i may laugh at them publicly. more than this is not required,
and becomes annoyingly juvenile
butting egotistical heads simply because one person exhibits a
special claim in role with respect to the cosmos strikes me as
about as futile as arguing with them over whether they REALLY
have an Oath of the Abyss, or whether they REALLY have K&C
with an HGA. there's never going to be resolution in such a
debate and it comes off as being anti-occult or ignorant.
the process of ego-inflation with the potential development
room for real progress is too valuable to oppose any single
aggrandizer except in front of a bunch of n00bs who might
get the impression that the individual deserves to receive all
of one's worldly possessions, acclaim, lifetime servitude, and
the keys to our firstborn's soul. it isn't one's job, as a Thelemite,
to protect all n00bs from this unless they have granted one
this role as their guide and leader, even if one IS the Prophet
of this AEon of the Adversary. let them sort it out for them-
selves and see how the True Kings deal with the blowhards,
Oh My Chosen!
> ... There is also a [parallel] tendency to relate this very
> personal data to the system as a whole. This seems to
> be a limitation and mitigation of professional objectivity,
> in other words.
in general, where the career is as a mage or mystic, agreed.
what to do about this is a matter of priorities and available
> Also, I find the idea of 'poor performance' of these systems
> based upon high or low probability, to be a largely arbitrary
> matter, as I do the idea of coinciding one's formulae of AL
> into the personal events of one's own life....
figure the lot of it is arbitrary until given good reason otherwise.
as to what constitutes good reason, it had better be a shitload
of significant coincidences, along with communication from one's
HGA that someone's authority warrants such a level of attention.
that is a very different thing than finding out that they are perfectly
suited as *my* guru, which is an interpersonal coordination.
> ...One of the things about these systems is that they are very much the
> product of the intellect of the 'seer'.
your willingness to ascribe "genius" to so many based on their artistic
talent and cognitive character is interesting to me. I don't find it as
easy to be as complimentary with others as i am with myself, and so
could tip my hat to you as the greater humble. that said, your
willingness to presume an Aiwass, its knowledge and authority
and speak of its likelihood, and of the possibility (gasp!) that girls
might do ALW -- what, is Soror Sandi somehow invisible? ;)),,
are difficult for me to take seriously. Troglodytes believe that
women are the inferiors who need another incarnation before
the exalted Birth With Wand. the Church of Thelema is not
without its cave-dwellers.
> ... please consider the [possibility] that the 'child of thy bowels'
> could be a general metaphor relating to all of us, that it is simply
> the 'end result' of the Lethal Text that is AL.
only within the very small world where Liber Al is my scripture. as it
is not, the whole discussion becomes something akin to what you
are otherwise complaining about: cultists arguing angels and pins,
without much to sustain the notion of either angels or weights.
> It seems to me that, by relying only on theoretical mathematics
> to 'verify' our conclusions, we are dismissing the fact the practice
> of ritual theurgy also lies well within the territory of artistic
> disciplines, which are not solely governed by math.
> What is important about all of these systems is that each
> represents vital, workable systems, which are more like
> Performing Arts than mathematics.
as such, they may be more usefully therapeutic than religious
(i.e. conducting their own career rather than cult-making).
> If our civilization survives the coming decades, it is very
> likely that future generations will study this work, even
> these posts ABOUT this work, which must be ranging
> in the millions of words by now.
not without very good search engines and an ability to discern
relevance from wasted words. private forums having become
the standard of the day, most of these words will be trashed.
at least the essays posted into archives and on web pages
excoriating scoundrels and promoting one's supremacy will
have an ability to be archived by the interested observer.
in service to Satan,