2008/7/5 herupakraath <herupakraath@...
> "Sandi Peterson" <seagal@...> wrote:
>> Why would anyone consider Liber AL, a form of Christian
>> theurgy or gnosis? Ra-Hoor-Khuit rips out the eyes of Jesus,
>> or at least pecks at 'em, spits on crapulous Christian creeds,
>> blasphemies against all gods of men.
> Your question is valid, and one that I have asked more than once on
> this forum. The typical reply usually involves comparisons between
> Liber Legis and the Bible, accompanied by conclusions that statements
> in Liber Legis that are similar to those made in the Bible constitute
> evidence that both books originate from the same spiritual source, or
> at least that's how I understand some points of view on the matter;
you could be wrong of course ;-)
The references to Jesus etc. in the gematria are clear enough to me -
way I read the gematria through the conventions in use is they make
him a Sun god and Mary a Moon goddess. Personally speaking I'm an old
school goetic sorcerer (means I respect and usually like the chthonic
spirits rather than bully 'em with blades and Names). None of which is
exactly Christian as I understand the religion.
Even after seeing a potentially positive sense to the names Jesus and
Mary a Thelemic qaballist would have a hard time seeing AL and the NT
as identical in inspiration. For one thing AL critiques edited
scriptures ('change not as much as the style of a letter' at least
implies that Aiwass knew other texts had been cut about and
selectively composed, as do the other strictures about reproducing the
text to ensure non interference).
> such positions amount to failing to see the forest for the trees by
> ignoring overt statements in Liber Legis that reject established
LOL, forgive me but that is bull feathers! Try my suggestion that AL
is rejecting the crucified Christ and virginal Mary, quite feasibly in
favour of a manly Jesus and a fertile Mary. That is plainly a
heretical reading inimical to organised religion. It also makes a fair
bit of sense in terms of certain 'high grade' OTO references to
Christian symbolism in sexual terms. Not that I give a toss either way
It should really be no surprise that people are more than
> willing to cling to that which they know and are comfortable with, it
> is the form of spinelessness that binds the Herd together.
oh right, so EQists want AL to be Christian, what do you base that on?
The herd I see most often is 'thelemites' and 'occultists' that
embrace anti-christian slogans out of adolescent rebelllion.
> If you have an interest in knowing specifically why proponents of
> EQ/NAEQ6/EQ11/ALW see Liber Legis as a Christian text in essence, I
> devised a small exercise using ALW gematria to show how easy it is to
> ignore statements made in the text of the Book, embracing gematria
> correspondences instead. Note that I devised the equations, and have
> no idea whether thay are recognized by anyone else.
Who is ignoring the text? In my recent posts 'Let Mary inviolate be
torn upon wheels' and 'Jesus as he hangs upon the cross' have been
quoted and the subtext explained - geamtira p[layed a subsidiary role
in that analysis. Strikes me that someone else is focussing on the
gematria and ignoring the textual analysis. ;-)
> Aleister Crowley identified Osiris with Jesus, therefore based on the
> last equations typed, I can argue the Beast was secretly a Christian,
> and that Ordeal X requires ignoring the surface meaning of Liber
> Legis and recognizing the importance of Christianity to Thelema.
heh, Crowley did once say it was priggish not to invoke Jesus like the
other gods, and that ignoring him was likely to make him a demon who
attracted all the good folks! ;-)
Not that Crowley saying anything is important to me, his poo smelt as
bad as anyone else's, but it is an important counterpoint nonetheless.
> The problem with all serial gematria is so many alphanumeric
> associations can be generated that endless contradictions arise. For
> instance, I can counter the claim that Thelema is a Christian-based
> concept with these equations:
> Jesus of Nazareth = 182
> Restriction = 182
which makes Jesus Saturnine? (The Mighty Sea = 182)
> With the word of Sin being Restriction acording to Liber Legis, I can
> claim being a Christian is a sin.
Sure, gematria has to be part of an integrated approach, what else is
new? The problem appears to be you're assuming that EQists who see
Christian symbolism in their gematria are then signed up to the
Seventh Day Adventist wing of the A.'.A.'.! ;-D
But as said, I don't actually care too much, having seen Thelema
wither on the vine, and Scientific Illuminism proven a broken reed
while the old superstitious magic still somehow produces results! ;-)
Converting Thelemites to Gnostic Christianity (or anything else) is
the last thing on my mind.
> The excercise can be taken even further, showing that almost any
> argument can be made in favor of a prefered demi-god.
> Horus = 45
> Satan = 45
> Not = 45
> No God = 45
Do you seriously think folks have been thru AL looking for the
Christian bits while ignoring these?
Buddha is also in AL, and has a meaningful gematria, and it would not
be at all hard to point to Buddhist influence in Thelema - again, the
religion is critiqued, not rejected peicemeal. And again, the 'gods'
and 'prophets' of these religions are entitled to cult, so long as the
imposed veneer of priestcraft and the religion of the slave gods is
stripped away. Does 2000 years of European culture become irrelevant
because AL was dictated in 1904? That, not seeing positive aspects to
Christian symbolism in Thelemic gematria, is a deluded position.
> Based on those equations, Horus is actually Satan, and Satanism is
> the underlying theme of Liber Legis.
;-) more a Luciferian myself... But do you seriously suppose that the
EQsts have been thru the text of AL looking for Christian friendly
elements that they can cosy up to, and ignored references like the
> The point made is gematria has just as much potential to delude and
> deceive as it does to inspire and enlighten.
hardly alone in that though is it?
Too much emphasis is
> placed the origin of gematria systems, while practical value is
> ignored, along with the most basic rules of magick, which are needed
> to develop a relevant system that can be relied upon.
the principle of reductio absurdam on the other hand is as reliable as ever.
> important quality of gematria systems as related to Liber legis is
> they must answer the questions posed by the Book:
you don't say? For that one has to examine other aspects of the EQ
corpus, rather than pretend it is all about deluded number crunching
that folks need saving from.