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Re: [t93] Re: COP: Questioning Tzaddi

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  • that guy
    93! ... I have to apologize for using the word bogus - I know at this point after years of reading your work that you don t think it s bogus; that was a poor
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 20 5:09 AM
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      93!

      Alamantra wrote:
      >
      > RIKB wrote:
      >
      > >You could be saying that the Book of the Law is bogus because it
      > >supports a historically inaccurate theory of the Tarot's origin that
      > >places it in ancient Egypt.
      >
      > ...However, the line in your previous response
      > that I kept tending to focus on was the possible implication that my
      > angle
      > was to suggest a proof that the "Book of the Law is bogus."
      > I've been told that this is what I think by some, but that is not what I
      > think at all.
      >









      I have to apologize for using the word "bogus" - I know at this point
      after years of reading your work that you don't think it's bogus; that
      was a poor choice of words. I admit, it's a rhetorical habit of mine to
      dramatize and polarize language in discourse to help bring out
      distinctions. It's a really funny thing, but if you want to get someone
      to explain himself, you get to the point a lot faster if you say "so you
      believe x?" (when you suspect or know damn well x is not quite right)
      than if you just ask "what do you believe?"

      >
      > In your previous post, I noticed you treated "Nuit" as an anthromorphic
      > goddess in that you assigned to her the value of being able to possess:
      > "I'm inclined to let her claim it." ...And I don't have a problem with
      > any
      > of that, ...I'm not interested in making it a point of contention ...
      > it's
      > just something I notice as being of a different shade than my own, and
      > that's wonderful.
      >





      I can take any number of perspectives on that before breakfast - Nuit is
      a literary character, a philosophical concept, a metaphor, a force of
      nature, etc. etc. These parsings all engage the intellect in various
      interesting ways, and that's the standard approach in modern Western
      thought. It wasn't always the case, though, which is a good thing, or we
      wouldn't have a Tarot to discuss! The trumps are (mostly)
      personifications, and personification is an approach that tends to be
      quite difficult for modern Western people. It's certainly difficult for
      me, but I approach it as a praxis. It's always tempting for someone who
      keeps a copy of the OED by his desk to flatten the personification to
      the point that it appears unnecessary - if you know what the
      personification "symbolizes" and can write a paragraph about its
      "meaning" you don't need the image, you lose the person.

      It's kind of ironic, but I highly recommend taking a look (if you
      haven't before) at James Hillman's book "Re-Visioning Psychology,"
      especially the first chapter. Hillman isn't much of a psychologist, but
      he's an excellent polytheist theologian :-) Just to give you a taste:
      "Personifying not only aids discrimination; it also offers another
      avenue of loving, of imagining things in a personal form so that we can
      find access to them with our hearts...Loving is a way of knowing, and
      for loving to know, it must personify...In this perspective personifying
      is not a lesser, primitive mode of apprehending but a finer one. It
      represents in psychological theory the attempt to integrate heart into
      method and to return abstract thoughts and dead matter to their human
      shapes." This was intuitively obvious to the makers of the Tarot, as it
      was to the makers of Egyptian the temples. Perhaps the Tarot is Nuit's
      book because the mode of knowing her is love, and the mode of expression
      in the Tarot is personification.

      >
      > The bit you mentioned on another thread about Hadit being a word for
      > light
      > or radiant one, ...I found to be quite interesting. I was hoping you
      > might
      > hook us up with your source(s) for that.
      >



      My only source on that is a Middle Egyptian dictionary. I would give you
      a bibliographic reference, but I'm using an Excel spreadsheet version I
      downloaded ages ago, so I'm not sure where it was originally published.
      In any case, the word is usually transliterated as "hedj" as in
      "hedjet," the white crown of upper Egypt (of course, the vowels are
      arbitrary). The "dj" phoneme apparently became interchangeable with the
      "d" phoneme fairly early, by the Middle Egyptian period certainly, so
      transliterating it as Had or Hadit isn't at all out of order. Another
      interesting one is that Nu or Nuit can mean "time." Nu can also be a
      verb meaning "to hunt," which is the meaning of the root of the word
      Tzaddi (TzD means "hunt" in modern Hebrew, TzDI is the name of the letter).

      >
      > Moving back to our original subject which is the issue of Tzaddi and the
      > Star and the development of The Book of Thoth, itself. ...Well, for one
      > thing it still appears to me that it is problematic for those who would
      > believe in some literally "real" reincarnated or channeled Egyptian
      > something or other ...that "Her" Book is "The Book of Thoth" ...since the
      > Tarot appears, not to have come from Egypt, as many of the various
      > mystical
      > schools of the Fin de Siecle preferred to believe ...but came from
      > Europe.
      >







      I see how it can be considered a problem, but I think the most we can
      say definitively is that there is a relationship to the myth of Tarot
      origins and import popular in occult circles around the turn of the
      century. Whether that is a problem for anyone - whether it needs an
      explanation or solution or apology - is another matter. If the gods have
      a message for humanity that they wish to express through me, they have
      to embody it somehow in a language I will understand, or at least in a
      language compelling enough to demand interest and study and
      dissemination. One could hardly find a better language than the mythic
      imagery of Egypt - whether historically accurate or not - to get an
      occultist of the early 1900s to sit up and take notice. (Of course, this
      is one particular perspective, chosen to show that it's entirely
      possible for what you point out as a problem to be a benefit or
      "feature" for someone else.) This fetishization of Egypt by Europeans
      goes all the way back to Herodotus and beyond, so it was a good branding
      decision :-)

      > (Just to be clear: In my own view, I don't have a problem with this being
      > that my Nuit is a French word and the Tarot probably originated in France
      > ...or Italy. Actually I think its rather cool. I simply think that very
      > little of Liber Al "walks like an Egyptian" ...and its not particularly
      > necessary for me that it does. )
      >




      It's not necessary for me that it does, either, and I agree with you
      that its meaning and import does not rest on correctly understanding
      Egyptian religion or culture. Of course, I wouldn't go so far as to say
      the Egyptian context is irrelevant, or that there aren't keys to be
      found in investigating that context. (i.e. the particular gods used as
      dramatis personae, words like 'khu' and 'khabs,' etc.)

      > The old school in me still
      > likes my first Marseilles deck as I plugged into it on a very primal
      > symbolic level. The one I've used well above and beyond any other,
      > though,
      > is The Book of Thoth by Harris/Crowley ...Finally, I also like the
      > archetypal power that can be tapped with Sally Glassman's images on
      > the New
      > Orleans Voodoo Tarot. My least favorites is a toss up between The
      > Rider-Waite and The Golden Dawn ...which I gave away.
      >







      It's my favorite Tarot too. I was very happy to receive a copy of the
      New Orleans Voodoo Tarot (purchased from Sally at her botanica in New
      Orleans no less) as a gift for the Winter Solstice this year. Tarot has
      been something I've been very focused on this past year, as I'm
      designing my own version with completely revised attributions (which
      will be completed sometime in the year 2525).

      > ...The real message ...and its not
      > unique to Thelema, but rather is truly Catholic.. is that everything is
      > connected...intimately and in a trans-temporal fashion. ...the
      > consciousness of the continuity of existence ...just like the book says.
      >



      Which is why Aldous Huxley called it "the perennial philosophy." But I
      think it has a good deal more to say than this, but it's a good start :-)

      93 93/93
      RIKB
    • rikb000
      93! I ve tried posting this a couple times from my account, but something odd is going on with my mail delivery and posts aren t coming through. I m posting
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 20 9:36 PM
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        93!

        I've tried posting this a couple times from my account, but something
        odd is going on with my mail delivery and posts aren't coming through.
        I'm posting this through the website, so hopefully it will work better.

        Alamantra wrote:
        >
        > RIKB wrote:
        >
        > >You could be saying that the Book of the Law is bogus because it
        > >supports a historically inaccurate theory of the Tarot's origin that
        > >places it in ancient Egypt.
        >
        > ...However, the line in your previous response
        > that I kept tending to focus on was the possible implication that my
        angle
        > was to suggest a proof that the "Book of the Law is bogus."
        > I've been told that this is what I think by some, but that is not what I
        > think at all.
        >

        I have to apologize for using the word "bogus" - I know at this point
        after years of reading your work that you don't think it's bogus; that
        was a poor choice of words. I admit, it's a rhetorical habit of mine
        to dramatize and polarize language in discourse to help bring out
        distinctions. It's a really funny thing, but if you want to get
        someone to explain himself, you get to the point a lot faster if you
        say "so you believe x?" (when you suspect or know damn well x is not
        quite right) than if you just ask "what do you believe?"

        >
        > In your previous post, I noticed you treated "Nuit" as an anthromorphic
        > goddess in that you assigned to her the value of being able to possess:
        > "I'm inclined to let her claim it." ...And I don't have a problem
        with any
        > of that, ...I'm not interested in making it a point of contention
        ... it's
        > just something I notice as being of a different shade than my own, and
        > that's wonderful.
        >

        I can take any number of perspectives on that before breakfast - Nuit
        is a literary character, a philosophical concept, a metaphor, a force
        of nature, etc. etc. These parsings all engage the intellect in
        various interesting ways, and that's the standard approach in modern
        Western thought. It wasn't always the case, though, which is a good
        thing, or we wouldn't have a Tarot to discuss! The trumps are (mostly)
        personifications, and personification is an approach that tends to be
        quite difficult for modern Western people. It's certainly difficult
        for me, but I approach it as a praxis. It's always tempting for
        someone who keeps a copy of the OED by his desk to flatten the
        personification to the point that it appears unnecessary - if you know
        what the personification "symbolizes" and can write a paragraph about
        its "meaning" you don't need the image, you lose the person.

        It's kind of ironic, but I highly recommend taking a look (if you
        haven't before) at James Hillman's book "Re-Visioning Psychology,"
        especially the first chapter. Hillman isn't much of a psychologist,
        but he's an excellent polytheist theologian :-) Just to give you a
        taste: "Personifying not only aids discrimination; it also offers
        another avenue of loving, of imagining things in a personal form so
        that we can find access to them with our hearts...Loving is a way of
        knowing, and for loving to know, it must personify...In this
        perspective personifying is not a lesser, primitive mode of
        apprehending but a finer one. It represents in psychological theory
        the attempt to integrate heart into method and to return abstract
        thoughts and dead matter to their human shapes." This was intuitively
        obvious to the makers of the Tarot, as it was to the makers of
        Egyptian the temples. Perhaps the Tarot is Nuit's book because the
        mode of knowing her is love, and the mode of expression in the Tarot
        is personification.

        >
        > The bit you mentioned on another thread about Hadit being a word for
        light
        > or radiant one, ...I found to be quite interesting. I was hoping you
        might
        > hook us up with your source(s) for that.
        >

        My only source on that is a Middle Egyptian dictionary. I would give
        you a bibliographic reference, but I'm using an Excel spreadsheet
        version I downloaded ages ago, so I'm not sure where it was originally
        published. In any case, the word is usually transliterated as "hedj"
        as in "hedjet," the white crown of upper Egypt (of course, the vowels
        are arbitrary). The "dj" phoneme apparently became interchangeable
        with the "d" phoneme fairly early, by the Middle Egyptian period
        certainly, so transliterating it as Had or Hadit isn't at all out of
        order. Another interesting one is that Nu or Nuit can mean "time." Nu
        can also be a verb meaning "to hunt," which is the meaning of the root
        of the word Tzaddi (TzD means "hunt" in modern Hebrew, TzDI is the
        name of the letter).

        >
        > Moving back to our original subject which is the issue of Tzaddi and the
        > Star and the development of The Book of Thoth, itself. ...Well, for one
        > thing it still appears to me that it is problematic for those who would
        > believe in some literally "real" reincarnated or channeled Egyptian
        > something or other ...that "Her" Book is "The Book of Thoth"
        ...since the
        > Tarot appears, not to have come from Egypt, as many of the various
        mystical
        > schools of the Fin de Siecle preferred to believe ...but came from
        Europe.
        >

        I see how it can be considered a problem, but I think the most we can
        say definitively is that there is a relationship to the myth of Tarot
        origins and import popular in occult circles around the turn of the
        century. Whether that is a problem for anyone - whether it needs an
        explanation or solution or apology - is another matter. If the gods
        have a message for humanity that they wish to express through me, they
        have to embody it somehow in a language I will understand, or at least
        in a language compelling enough to demand interest and study and
        dissemination. One could hardly find a better language than the mythic
        imagery of Egypt - whether historically accurate or not - to get an
        occultist of the early 1900s to sit up and take notice. (Of course,
        this is one particular perspective, chosen to show that it's entirely
        possible for what you point out as a problem to be a benefit or
        "feature" for someone else.) This fetishization of Egypt by Europeans
        goes all the way back to Herodotus and beyond, so it was a good
        branding decision :-)

        > (Just to be clear: In my own view, I don't have a problem with this
        being
        > that my Nuit is a French word and the Tarot probably originated in
        France
        > ...or Italy. Actually I think its rather cool. I simply think that very
        > little of Liber Al "walks like an Egyptian" ...and its not particularly
        > necessary for me that it does. )
        >

        It's not necessary for me that it does, either, and I agree with you
        that its meaning and import does not rest on correctly understanding
        Egyptian religion or culture. Of course, I wouldn't go so far as to
        say the Egyptian context is irrelevant, or that there aren't keys to
        be found in investigating that context. (i.e. the particular gods used
        as dramatis personae, words like 'khu' and 'khabs,' etc.)

        > The old school in me still
        > likes my first Marseilles deck as I plugged into it on a very primal
        > symbolic level. The one I've used well above and beyond any other,
        though,
        > is The Book of Thoth by Harris/Crowley ...Finally, I also like the
        > archetypal power that can be tapped with Sally Glassman's images on
        the New
        > Orleans Voodoo Tarot. My least favorites is a toss up between The
        > Rider-Waite and The Golden Dawn ...which I gave away.
        >

        It's my favorite Tarot too. I was very happy to receive a copy of the
        New Orleans Voodoo Tarot (purchased from Sally at her botanica in New
        Orleans no less) as a gift for the Winter Solstice this year. Tarot
        has been something I've been very focused on this past year, as I'm
        designing my own version with completely revised attributions (which
        will be completed sometime in the year 2525).

        > ...The real message ...and its not
        > unique to Thelema, but rather is truly Catholic.. is that everything is
        > connected...intimately and in a trans-temporal fashion. ...the
        > consciousness of the continuity of existence ...just like the book says.
        >

        Which is why Aldous Huxley called it "the perennial philosophy." But I
        think it has a good deal more to say than this, but it's a good start :-)

        93 93/93
        RIKB
      • camlion@aol.com
        93 Alamantra, In a message dated 4/19/2008 9:04:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Yes, I was writing in haste, but my intention was most definitely with
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 22 12:06 PM
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          93 Alamantra,

          In a message dated 4/19/2008 9:04:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          alamantra@... writes:

          > Camilion wrote:
          >
          > >>...The real message ...and its not
          > >>unique to Thelema, but rather is truly Catholic.. is that everything is
          > >>connected...intimately and in a trans-temporal fashion. ...the
          > >>consciousness of the continuity of existence ...just like the book says.
          > >>
          > >>Bliss:
          > >>Alamantra
          >
          > >On the contrary, I think that 'everything' is, for a time, appropriately
          > >disconnected. That 'Bliss' is divided against herself, for the chance of
          > >(re)union. This is a time when things seem askew and disjointed, and
          > >deliberately so.
          > >That's okay, I've a feeling that it all comes together right in the end.
          > >That
          > >includes historical continuity. It is all a matter of emphasis suiting the
          > >moment.
          >
          > >Again, excellent post, and sorry for butting in.
          >
          > Hi:
          >
          > I'm glad you enjoyed it and I don't consider it to be butting in being as we
          >
          > are on a public discussion forum.
          > The minor distinction between our perspectives is that you said it is "for
          > a time appropriately disconnected" ...I said that the connection was
          > trans-temporal.
          > You said that "things SEEM askew and disjointed" ...which is a suggestion,
          > at least to me, that this is acknowledgement that this is in appearance only
          >
          > ...in other words an illusion. I rather see things like a parade. Each float
          >
          > is separate and makes its own statement, yet each one is connected to the
          > other through the times and the event itself. I like some of the floats
          > better than the others, but in any event I'm here for the whole parade.
          > As to my use of "Bliss" for several years, it is sort of a joke or at
          > least a double entendre. "Ignorance is Bliss." ...so I always sign off with
          > an acknowledgement that my own opinions must inevitably be limited by my
          > ignorance and I feel that it is true that the more I learn, the less I know.
          >
          > I used to feel so "certain" about my opinions, but that certainty kept being
          >
          > challenged until I found it was better to pursue, rather Ataraxia. (in both
          > the Epicurian and the Pyrrhonian sense) "Bliss" is followed by my
          > 'nom-de-internet': Alamantra ...which itself came about as a typographical
          > error. The upshot is that my opinions can be further enlightened or
          > persuaded (not forced) to change to something more aesthetically beneficial
          > and even be put to a use. Even though one of my magical instructors once
          > informed me that "hope is a false prophet," I none-the-less remain hopeful
          > that this is not absolutely true. Perhaps "hope" was never meant to be a
          > prophet in the first place.
          > Have a great weekend!
          >
          > Bliss:
          > Alamantra
          >

          Yes, I was writing in haste, but my intention was most definitely with
          emphasis on "SEEM," and things are seldom as they seem, or so my own teacher used to
          say. :)

          93 93/93
          Cam




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