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(C)OTO Policies and Behaviour

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  • nagasiva yronwode
    93 much snippage in the below. ... I asked at the tme that i be informed when that novel form of the document was once again available online. so far i ve not
    Message 1 of 36 , Apr 16 11:40 AM
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      much snippage in the below.

      333 <nagasiva@...>:
      >> ...i was asked [by Brother Heidrick] to remove "Emblems"
      >> pending a newer version of the document being made
      >> available, but i haven't to date

      I asked at the tme that i be informed when that novel form
      of the document was once again available online. so far i've
      not been so contacted. if it really bugged me (it doesn't),
      then i would contact someone again to acquire a revised copy.
      I've moved on to archival and discussion of more pragmatic
      text where magic is concerned.

      tom chaudoin <taammuz@...>:
      > A 'newer version' ?, you mean other than the one
      > Crowley wrote? Did he write multiple versions?

      it is my impression that there were more than one form of
      the document (like MiTaP) and that these were to be reconciled.
      I wasn't really involved in the process other than archival and
      my notes and email file eludes my grasp, so probably Brother
      Heidrick could tell us more about its status.

      > > as it does not control any states (or even seem to
      > > advocate a religious state -- argue against this!),
      > > my observation is that the (c)OTO is merely
      > > protecting
      > > its private interests.>
      > Agreed on the private interest matter. Somehwere
      > however Crowley wrote that the OTO was a model for an
      > envisioned and endgoaled temporal government, give
      > some time and I will surf that up.

      I've seen quotes of Crowley's claim. he was full of all
      kinds of unreasonable claims and notions. some of them
      were worth discarding (the Homunculus masculocentric
      spermognosticism amongst them).

      > > # It is unlikely that, even once one has availed
      > > # themselves to the secret OTO docs; that they are going
      > > # to go out and begin using them by rote to initiate
      > > # others.
      > >yes, or be so disappointed (one reason to keep them
      > >hidden) that they'll abandon anything Crowleyite or
      > >'Thelemic', so called. seeing the soft white
      > >underbelly of the Beast, one may try to kill it
      > Well, you're presuming that I havent found anything
      > relevant in Crowley's techniques....

      I had not presumed that, only that this is one of the
      dangers of spreading information which is uncomplimentary
      of the Prophet of a cult. these things get whitewashed.

      > # It stands to reason that any effective revision which
      > # might draw membership on a large scale would be a
      > # potential percieved threat by cOTO.
      > >especially if it uses the same name or maintains that
      > >it offers the same (sex magick/initiation) technology.
      > >not only perceived, either, but supportably actual.
      > >SOTO, TOTO and OTOA were all clear attempts to enter
      > >the stream
      > Well again, using the direct rites could be argued as
      > an infringement, but an adaptation of the text and
      > techniques could still be called "Crowleyan sex
      > magick".

      use is never impeded. promotion of displacement is.
      it's the same with the Gnostic Mass. the only thing
      i ever saw anybody from the OTO complaining about
      were *public rites advertized as official OTO Masses
      which had sufficient variation from a gradually
      solidifying standard*. the construction of a standard
      itself seems to have been a reaction to greater and
      greater perturbation in rites and risk to the order.

      > ...I bloody do
      > well employ the Bhakti yoga tech of the 7th, 8th and
      > 9th degrees and I claim it as such....

      wonderful. I doubt that anybody would complain, even if
      you wrote up an essay on what these techs were and how
      people could engage them on their own or with others.
      if you know of such a document, please point it out.
      many seem content to merely explain that they do it and
      make casual (ambiguous) reference to it without details.

      > >the Church of Scientology is also struggling with it,
      > but
      > >they lost their case against the CoE's Karin Spaink.
      > Well again, I have drawn lengthy paralells to the OTO
      > and the Church of ScN, I even posted an essay ... Ive
      > fielded this point about OTO to great length in that
      > essay...

      please post the URL of that file in the archive for reference
      and explain how it applies, even quote from relevant portions
      in our exchange.

      I'd like to move as much data of substance arguing complexities
      of the "real OTO" and "OTO Copyrights" disputes as possible
      into those files and we can just refer to them obliquely.

      the length primarily becomes an issue when it is a single essay
      and we're not experiencing a lull in conversation herein.

      > >XVII 17 D Liber IAO
      > >IAO. Sexual Magick. Gives three methods of
      > >attainment through a willed series of thoughts.
      > >The active form of Liber CCCXLI.
      > Yeah Liber 367, Deo Homonculo, which is another
      > document of dispute. As I said, many have searched for
      > that one high and low for years. I consider it a boon.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thelema93-l/files/RELATED/Liber IAO.pdf

      feel free to analyze the document we have in our files
      section as to how it is "the active form" of CCCXLI,
      if you like. :)

      re Crowley:
      > >magic moreso (his Magick) and his essentiality to occult
      > >studies, especially as this manifests as mysticism. his
      > >expression makes it plain that he was a failed mystic.
      > I've noted that you use this adjectival a lot, can you
      > elaborate on what you think a 'falied' or 'successful'
      > mystic is,

      someone who constructs a mystical system (Magick) and seeks
      to instruct it to others without exhibiting the characteristic
      qualities associated with success in that endeavour in his
      wake (as in his writings, in the accounts of those who met
      him, etc.).

      > ...can you demonstrate that
      > these [beliefs] and assumptions have any
      > factual basis beyond your subjective evaluations?

      I could, but anybody interested can see it Crowley's own
      writings which provide a depth of insight into his
      internal process, which was bigotted and classist.
      I don't feel like doing the work now to properly reply.

      > # I also doubt seriously that if I wrote an essay
      > which
      > # quoted the text of any OTO secret ritual, that it
      > # would be not immediately screened off this list.
      > With respect to oaths, I can only imagine that anyone
      > attempting to censure discourse about OTO rituals,
      > would be doing so out of an oathbound sensibility....

      I tried to make it clear that my interests were to
      avoid oaths. I have no oaths of secrecy which will
      impede my communications and archival. I do have a
      concern about the option for anyone to 'remain
      virginal' with respect to initiation rites because
      i had that interest before and i noticed a number
      of my kindred around me who were spoiling it for
      me unless i set very clear, sometimes abrupt bounds.

      > >I'm not aware that this is the case, but the (c)OTO
      > claims
      > >its aim is the promulgation of the Law of Thelema,
      > which
      > >some deem affiliated with egalitarian ...principles
      > It is also rife with unpalatable elitist principles....

      > Someone else found a germain Crowley quote about how
      > he wished the world to be ruled by an elite class of
      > Preist-Kings, hearkening back to ancient paganism of
      > Asia Minor. Hell even Wahabbist Muslims are more
      > soially advanced.

      completely agreed that both Crowley's text and his
      scripture are filled with mutually-contradictory
      expressions. both the ravages of time and confusion
      have made it difficult to see a ledge of support.

      clarity or coherence of mind, consistency or at least
      clear throughput of development in expression would be
      better indicators of his mystical success, also.

      > ...I've been
      > warned and had my life threatened by crackpots on the
      > behalf of OTO....

      that's odd. were they in high official places in the order?

    • 333
      namaste Sister colette, colette: # # # THEN what the hell do those [planes] of # # # consciousness need with your little ignorant # # # petty shit concerning
      Message 36 of 36 , Jul 13, 2008
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        namaste Sister colette,

        #>#># THEN what the hell do those [planes] of
        #>#># consciousness need with your little ignorant
        #>#># petty shit concerning [monetary] compensation
        #>#># and the value of your stinking laws altogether?

        #>#> technology is applied to reach those states of
        #>#> consciousness.

        #>#> some of these may be made illegal
        #>#> or at least unavailable (as by preserving secrecy
        #>#> or privacy). it is these (as in "We don't need no"?)
        #>#> "stinking laws" that make possible the existence
        #>#> of the (c)OTO in its current configuration.

        #># I am in complete agreement that such organizations as the
        #># OTO should exist but as I always rail about concerning
        #># Masonic lodges they get filled with Barney Rubble/Fred
        #># Flinstone or Ed Norton/Ralph Cramden types, that only
        #># join the organization for the "status" it offers them
        #># in the community.

        #> it isn't our business why they join.
        #># They have absolutely no concerns for actually doing
        #># the work

        this is a very common criticism (that 'the work' is not
        'actually being done', or is misunderstood, etc.). its
        form is sometimes solidified in an attempt to confirm.

        #> there is no necessary work to do in social clubs like OTO.
        #> this is particularly true in the first 3 degrees, which
        #> should be open and available to all, by my reckoning.

        "colette" <ksheri3@...>:
        # We, as a group of like minded indivuals that pursue deviant sciences
        # as a means of obtaining rational truths to what we all suffer
        # our pursiut.

        we aren't necessarily like-minded. that displays itself well here,
        as, ostensibly, thelemites, with the vitality of dissent and
        disagreement that is present. I rail about anti-Judaism and Jake
        kindly tells me i'm off-base. Sandi and tom dispute about the din.
        in the OTO, an initiatic kinship org, this is even LESS like-minded
        on the whole, since any rogue might sneak in without our knowing
        them for what they are. that's the nature of the instruction:
        how to engage all manner of individual in a setting of dedication.


        who can say? maybe we're all hallucinating.

        # If they want to play with loaded weapons then they should be
        # aware of the consequiences of playing with a loaded weapon.

        is it so very dangerous to become initiated?

        # Suicide is a common result and I have no desire to allow
        # some needless punks to walk up to me and declare how
        # powerful they are just to put a loaded weapon to their
        # heads and pull the trigger. ....

        it isn't suicide if accidental death occurs, and it is very
        unlikely that death or even anything serious will occur due
        to being initiated into the OTO. I'd be more worried about
        becoming wrapped up in zealous fanaticism, frankly.

        # it is the repsponsibility of those stinkin' scum called
        # "youth" to get their heads out of the gutter and that
        # MTV crap....

        their will is not mine. they will do what they do, and this
        may intersect the orbit of my actions. I do not try to make
        the new and ignorant responsible for being wise. in the
        case that i am a thelemite i will barrel over them with
        my momentum and barely notice as they fly aside. their
        gutter and MTV crap will avail them little.

        # How can you get so heavy?

        that's how my life is. :)

        # But I guess you, as an adminstrator of the
        # community, have a right and an obligation to maintain.

        I'm hardly an administrator in the Thelemic community
        except as regards peripheral communications on theoretical
        and historical topics. you may wish to consider the real
        difference between administration of actual on-the-ground
        bodies and the sociopolitics of instruction and ritualizing
        that really involved people engage and the pittance of
        volunteer effort which is moderating an old forum. I've
        only visited with these administrators, learned from
        them occasionally, and found some of them to be inspiring.

        # HERE WE [GO?] ...
        #> you are free to select differently, refuse to initiate
        #> any but those whom you deem worthy of your
        #> attentions/service, should you have that ability
        #> or authority.

        which authority, i should add, i do not have.

        # completely understood, totally reasonable BUT WHAT THE HELL IS[:]
        #> Brother Heidrick and others were trying to install Liber MCLI.
        # wait a minute, I'm not that familiar with the multitude of
        # ceremonials that the OTO has in it's repetroire.

        it really isn't a ceremony or rite, but a guidebook of
        instruction for those interested in the OTO. its fair
        content as a Crowley-based Thelemic preparation ought
        be analyzed by the interested. what each portion of
        the curriculum and practice there outlined will bring
        to the interested student should be explained by those
        who seek to promote it. I could do it myself, but i
        have not myself taken it up, not being a Crowleyan,
        just finding Crowley's to be an interesting example of
        will-based philosophy set in a religiomystical mode. I
        have occasionally experimented with others in doing
        a bit of what is recommended there to understand it.

        # I'll have to review it when I can find it.
        # {MODERATOR: googling Liber MCLI brought me this:
        # http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib1151.htm }

        it is online for you to examine. it isn't very long.
        I suggest that discussing it, asking questions about
        it, is the responsibility of all (esp. Crowleyan)

        #># and they clearly condemn those that actually do the work.

        I'm not sure that this is true, btw. more often the Work,
        per se, is either not recognized as such, misunderstood
        as some kind of narcissistic promotion, or misplaced as
        worthless in favour of a zealous bauble. assessing other
        people's process and work is usually a distraction.

        # THAT POP UP EVERYWHERE i.e all magicians are thieves,
        # which is a catch-all for his corrupt activities and
        # to hide the fact that he was a heroin dependent, A SLAVE!

        that's an imperative point in understanding the man. his
        writing, say his fans, can be separated from his person.
        we must then ask what he might have known about will and
        its freedom/liberation if he was so enslaved. have not
        slaves sometimes written about the value of freedom?
        would they necessarily know about the means to obtain it?

        #> that is their prerogative, since it is entirely
        #> questionable what benefit such work yields.
        # Another one of those "agree completely" statements
        # however if ya don't try then you are simply stuck
        # with the damned hypothesis of some "sucker" i.e.
        # the orphanage of crying baby (college of cardinals)
        # where we find the earth is flat and that if you
        # leave the area where the church can extort money
        # from you then you are going off into this evil
        # realm or fall [off] the earth.

        I barely understand this, but i think i get the gist.
        you're quite correct that to re-invent the wheel is
        to risk falling into the pitfalls of all previous
        students who were on their own without guidance. that
        said, it strikes me as comparable danger to the usual
        pitfalls which accompany typical modern religious
        (and many elder religious in modern guise) instruction.

        the briars become thick with sycophancy and hero-worship.
        the meat of the Work, as you seem to be pointing toward
        it, is lost for the chaff of distraction and narcissism.

        it helps to focus upon what 'the Work' is supposed to
        include in its original context (alchemy), get a clear
        notion of upon what the processes are presumed to be
        working (spirit), and thence pay specific attention
        to the means by which these processes are actualized
        (mysticism, whether in magical character or otherwise),
        as well as the results any engaging them may obtain.

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