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Re: [t93] Personal moral obligations

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  • camlion@aol.com
    93 Pamela, Very interesting and curious discussion thus far... In a message dated 6/6/2007 5:00:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... One wonders why it often seems
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 6, 2007
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      93 Pamela,

      Very interesting and curious discussion thus far...

      In a message dated 6/6/2007 5:00:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
      missmara@... writes:

      > Seriously though yes the statement that Will is the product of nurture,
      > secondary and circumstantial, thus being the produced of the subconscious like
      > you said. Divining ones own True Will/Pure Will doesn’t come about “naturally”
      > . I think (well at least I do) have to work on it. It’s like a piece of art
      > that’s constantly being reworked and changing as we through our studies and
      > rituals come to understand ourselves better, especially with in our own
      > psyche.

      One wonders why it often seems so difficult for people to 'reconnect' with
      their own Will. If I may ask a somewhat personal question, where you raised by
      your parents in the way that HG describes here:

      In a message dated 6/6/2007 4:58:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
      HornedGod93@... writes:

      > Of course, the reason for my initial inquiry was that I feel that children
      > should be observed impartially for indications of their own natural
      > tendencies,
      > which can then be encouraged and nurtured. Too much arbitrary input tends to
      >
      > run counter to that practice. It clutters up their little heads with other
      > people's interests, interests which they may have no use for.
      >

      If not, perhaps your upbringing obscured your Will from your clear and
      immediate view?

      93 93/93
      Camlion


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    • Pamela Davies
      93 To all following this discussion.
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 7, 2007
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        93 To all following this discussion.


        <<<<<Camlion writes:
        ...[were] you raised by your parents in the way that HG describes here:

        <<HG writes:
        Of course, the reason for my initial inquiry was that I feel that children
        should be observed impartially for indications of their own natural
        tendencies, which can then be encouraged and nurtured. Too much arbitrary input tends to
        run counter to that practice. It clutters up their little heads with other people's interests, interests which they may have no use for.>>

        Camlion writes:
        If not, perhaps your upbringing obscured your Will from your clear and
        immediate view?

        93 93/93
        Camlion>>>>>

        93 Camlion

        Pamela writes:

        I’m not sure if you asking about the exposure I had to religion as a child but what exposure I did have ended with the death of my mother just before I turned 6 years old. I spent many years being afraid of death and dying and often had difficulty falling asleep because it would consume my mind. Other possible factors I was adopted (adoptees are well known to suffer from the “people pleaser complex). My father had difficulty raising 3 kids by himself and several times threatened to send us to a foster home if we didn’t behave. I do not think I was nurtured as a child at all, and was pretty much left to my own coping devises. I was an under achiever in school, and was constantly told by my sister I was dumb. Not till I went back as an adult student did I find out I was actually intelligent and smart. I’ve been on the path of Thelema for about 13 years now, with a bit of a break for 5 years up until about three years ago.

        I would say there could be merit in your statement of my Will being obscured.

        93, 93/93

        Pamela.




        [MODERATOR reformatted quoting, for greater readability; read MMM soon or your posts may not make it through moderation! first warning.]
      • camlion@aol.com
        93 Pamela, In a message dated 6/7/2007 10:59:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Thank you for your candor. Yes, each of us, to some extent, seems to find
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 7, 2007
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          93 Pamela,

          In a message dated 6/7/2007 10:59:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
          missmara@... writes:

          > 93 To all following this discussion.
          >
          > <<<<<Camlion writes:
          > ...[were] you raised by your parents in the way that HG describes here:
          >
          > <<HG writes:
          > Of course, the reason for my initial inquiry was that I feel that children
          > should be observed impartially for indications of their own natural
          > tendencies, which can then be encouraged and nurtured. Too much arbitrary
          > input tends to
          > run counter to that practice. It clutters up their little heads with other
          > people's interests, interests which they may have no use for.>>
          >
          > Camlion writes:
          > If not, perhaps your upbringing obscured your Will from your clear and
          > immediate view?
          >
          > 93 93/93
          > Camlion>>>>>
          >
          > 93 Camlion
          >
          > Pamela writes:
          >
          > I’m not sure if you asking about the exposure I had to religion as a child
          > but what exposure I did have ended with the death of my mother just before I
          > turned 6 years old. I spent many years being afraid of death and dying and
          > often had difficulty falling asleep because it would consume my mind. Other
          > possible factors I was adopted (adoptees are well known to suffer from the “
          > people pleaser complex). My father had difficulty raising 3 kids by himself and
          > several times threatened to send us to a foster home if we didn’t behave. I do
          > not think I was nurtured as a child at all, and was pretty much left to my
          > own coping devises. I was an under achiever in school, and was constantly told
          > by my sister I was dumb. Not till I went back as an adult student did I find
          > out I was actually intelligent and smart. I’ve been on the path of Thelema
          > for about 13 years now, with a bit of a break for 5 years up until about three
          > years ago.
          >
          > I would say there could be merit in your statement of my Will being
          > obscured.
          >
          > 93, 93/93
          >
          > Pamela.
          >
          > [MODERATOR reformatted quoting, for greater readability; read MMM soon or
          > your posts may not make it through moderation! first warning.]

          Thank you for your candor. Yes, each of us, to some extent, seems to find
          ourselves in such a similar position. Each has a Great Work to perform.

          93 93/93
          Camlion




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        • Alamantra
          It is marvelously ironic and even a bit mischievous that Thelema has, over time, gone from being something that was contrary to established religious
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 7, 2007
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            It is marvelously ironic and even a bit mischievous that "Thelema" has, over time, gone from being something that was 'contrary' to established religious custom and practice, to being called a 'religion' and/or a 'philosophy'.
            In its original context, its one 'rule' was 'do what thou wilt.' Now, it is clear to anyone who has even given a brief glimpse at the historical record that this isn't something that Crowley invented. (nor did he claim to; rather he gave due credit to its source, calling Rabelais' an antecedent.) Even in Rabelais' delineation of 'thelema' this one rule was modified, not with unlimited license, but rather with a litany that begins with a list of prohibitions. It's first aim was to remove the tyranny that suppresses joyful human expression. It's other aim was to cultivate the highest aspirations through access to information, which in the 1500s was guarded and censored ...nearly as much as it is today.... At the heart of the suggestion was the concept that male and female should commingle, cohabitate, learn and have experience together, that they should be admitted to the fine things in life ...aesthetics...., that they should be schooled in the fine arts and so on. It was suggested that this would lead to a better way of life than the resignation, prohibition and worldly denials of the monastery. ...Fairly simple, really, and this is what thelema is and has been for nearly five hundred years. ...The notion of an environment where one COULD exercise discretion and have their autonomy directed by a course of experience rather than unquestioned social and religious custom and dogma. This is the dream that the Abbey of Theleme set loose in the minds of every generation since the G&P was written. It finds fertile earth in the imaginations of everyone from Bacon to Shakespeare to some of the more modern ideas on education such as "unschooling".
            This same "Do what thou wilt" application of the formula become the watchword for the Hellfire Club, and though it may be sufficient for some to see it merely as an exercise in debauchery, as its detractors have suggested, it would do well to remember that those who participated generally were the best educated and most affluent members in their social circle. They were networking and letting their hair down ...and caused the world to change as a result.
            Though it is certainly antinomian "Thelema" is not anarchistic.
            Then comes Crowley and Liber Al and 1904 etc... and, according to some, a discarnate intelligence of an ancient Egyptian priest dictated that 'do what thou wilt' was the 'whole of the law.' ...Well at the root of the concept of "law" itself this is certainly true enough as the establishment of law came by an arbitrary process. Hammurabi did what he wilt and expected people to obey his will accordingly as did Moses, I suppose. Now, it should fall to the person with a bit of sense that there is something apparently ridiculous in the notion that a conceptual marriage that had been instigated through Rabelais, and further consummated by Dashwood, and then by the Bohemians of Montmartre etc... could have originated through a discarnate intelligence in Egypt in 1904. I don't think that Crowley was oblivious to this, but rather had enough humor and ability to 'work it.' It would seem incredible to me that Crowley, having spent time amongst the artists and other bohemians in Paris would never have attended or even heard of the Abbey de Theleme that was a very popular club in Montmartre throughout the very time he was there.
            However I'm getting away from my point which is this... If a person or a group of people founds a 'religion' or a 'philosophy' on some fantasia that isn't supported by the larger narrative, then all they have accomplished is founding another false religion or another false philosophy, and this is for the most part, all many of those who uphold the modern thelemic paradigm have accomplished. It is plainly demonstrable that 'Thelema' doesn't come out of 'The Book of the Law', but rather, Crowley's unique and, IMO, artistic rendering depicts as well as alludes to the larger paradigm of Thelema that had already been established and operated by thousands of others before or concurrent with himself.
            Crowley's general scheme is not out of accord with this broader outline of historical thelema as it had unfolded... He refers to a feast everyday, wines that foam, spices ...the good things of worldly life. Many of the admonitions in the third chapter are not even out of accord with Rabelais' own prohibitions. Crowley's methodology of 'scientific illuminism' given under the heading of the A.'.A.'. is very much in accord with Rabelais' liberal educational model.
            Liber Al is a parcel of "Thelema" and perhaps even a microcosmic rendering, but when one steps back and observes what the larger picture looks like, it makes some of the resultant behaviors of Crowley's teaching and those who insist on fables as realities look every bit as comical as a characterization in Gargantua and Pantagruel... This is not intended as an insult either... We all do it. We're all in 'The Book of Folly' which is a subtitle of "The Book of Life" and I'm certainly no exception, nor have I ever met one. The whole philosophic system as depicted by the upper arcana is FOUNDED on the Fool. I think that the important lesson is that its 'nothing to get hung about' one way or the other. Its through this being able 'to let go' that real progress is made on the level of self-awareness. At least that's how it is for me. We're always learning and always growing ...or at least that's how it can be.

            Oh, let us consult the wizards and oracles to find out if we shall have a 'good wife' or if we shall be forced to wear the horns of a cuckold.

            Bliss:
            Alamantra
            www.myspace.com/alamantra



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          • HornedGod93@aol.com
            93 Alamantra, In a message dated 6/7/2007 1:45:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ... I ve always considered it not only ironic but inevitable. This is the way such
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 7, 2007
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              93 Alamantra,

              In a message dated 6/7/2007 1:45:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
              alamantra@... writes:

              > It is marvelously ironic and even a bit mischievous that "Thelema" has,
              > over time, gone from being something that was 'contrary' to established
              > religious custom and practice, to being called a 'religion' and/or a 'philosophy'.
              > [SNIP]
              >

              I've always considered it not only ironic but inevitable. This is the way
              such things happen.

              93 93/93
              HG


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            • nopeth777
              ... to find ... perform. ... 93 Nopeth777 I was born in 1978 my father lost me to the state due to his violent nature towards my mother.I was adopted and
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 7, 2007
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                --- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, camlion@... wrote:
                > Thank you for your candor. Yes, each of us, to some extent, seems
                to find
                > ourselves in such a similar position. Each has a Great Work to
                perform.
                >
                > 93 93/93
                > Camlion

                93 Nopeth777
                I was born in 1978 my father lost me to the state due to his violent
                nature towards my mother.I was adopted and raised up southern
                baptist.
                I was told my whole life I was a crippled, due to a car accident I
                can't walk right, But my mind developed an antinomian outlook on
                life, god, and Love.
                I believe that no matter how we are raised or raise our children
                that they will develop on their own.You cannot stop evolution.
                I have practiced high magic for 7 and a half years, I discovered
                that I was already on that path whether by conscious choice or not.

                93 93/93
                Nopeth777


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