#># Please explain your seemingly irrational
#># fear of the freedom of Thelema?
#> strangely, it was this that i conceived at first
#> when absorbing the text of Crowley that i initially
#> encountered in his books. it was after this that i
#> met up with cults (including the OTO) which were
#> *confounding* the ideas expressed therein and making
#> them into cultic slave adornments. at first i was
#> sure that this MUST be some kind of arch trick for
#> the uninitiated, penalizing them for their inferior
#> education and tricking them into slavery. however,
#> over time i realized that the cults using this kind
#> of one-two punch (substitute an element of liberation
# theology for a cult emblem, such as a current leader
#> to whom one may swear fealty, for example) had nothing
#> of the sort in mind. sorely disappointing. all the
# And so, your negative take on Thelema
this is (an intentional?) misunderstanding of my words.
perhaps within this thread we'll correct that.
# is ultimately the result of your disappointing
# experiences with the OTO
you would better put it in context of my relationship
to religions (esp. of the slave gods) generally.
# and your observations of similar organizations?
incomplete. I have several takes on Thelema and
in part the focus of this forum (T93 is to provide
some room for *all* of these to collide/combat)
is to expand and showcase this variety. I'm sorry
if this means that some will become upset because
nobody is at present championing their pet theory,
or challenging a strongly popular notion thereof,
but T93 moderation is primarily according to FORM,
and mostly NOT by content (personal assaults will
be deleted at the door when they fail to somehow
relate to our focal topic: Thelema.
# As someone with nearly forty years of experience
# with Thelema, and no history of membership in
# such organizations, I am surprised at this.
please elaborate on your experience with Thelema
given that it is not engagement of Thelemic groups.
# I do know many OTO members, past and present,
# but I have always considered the OTO and similar
# groups to be an isolated experiment.
quite reasonable and i'd agree.
# The very idea of a "Thelemic organization" is
# enough to give an intelligent person pause,
# is it not?
only if 'Thelema' is necessarily anarchistic
(for which i have at times argued) or solitary.
# You must know that the OTO is not Thelema?
it self-describes as 'promulgating the Law of
Thelema', and so we might assess how well it
does this. Crowley is regarded by many as the
main proponent (if not originator) of Thelema
and he was head of OTO and co-master of AA.
# The two are not at all interchangeable in
# intelligent conversation.
their overlap and the interests of Gnostic
religious within this and other groups to
subsume Thelema make it quite rational to
consider and discuss.
# What possible relevance would your personal
# involvement with these small groups have to
# those with an interest in Thelema in general?
it isn't just me that has remarked upon it in
my presence. notions of 'what constitutes
Thelema' include these organizations or what
these organizations are focussing on and even
representing. obviously you don't agree with
these assertions, but we don't all have to
agree on these things for sharing to continue.
# I note that you appear to be irreligious by
# nature, and that some of these groups contain
# religious components.
my criticisms, as those within Thelemic subculture,
from Crowley and others, are for the cults of the
slave gods. the OTO has an upper echelon which is
subsumed to the EGC or Ecclesia Gnostica
Catolica/Gnostic Catholic Chuch. both of these
orgs occasionally self-describe as Thelemic and
its participants sometimes criticize religious
groups with which they would seek to compare
themselves and shine in contrasting glory.
# It is fairly clear that some people seem to
# need religion, perhaps only transitionally,
# perhaps more so. However, this does not
# mean that Thelema is a religion.
indeed, or that there is no room for religion
*in* Thelemic subcultures. that it tends
toward Gnosticism is perhaps an indicator
that this is sufficiently individualistic
and self-empowering that Baptists would
also find it helpful. one of my OTO kindred
stated that this was the wave of the future
with the Gnostic Mass (Baptists infiltrating
the OTO and driving it conservatively).
# It means that there is religion in Thelema
# for those that require it. There is also
# freedom from religion in Thelema, for
# those that require it.
your terms are slightly awkward. generally
the term 'Thelema' is reserved for a law and
'Thelemic' is used to describe a social milieu.
usually 'Thelema' as a social is religious or
#> 93 Current seems to have dissolved under the weight
#> of its own hubris. insufficient mystical discipline.
# you are looking in far too narrow a section of the
# total human population. The '93 Current'
point it out and where you like it most.
# is as valid and true as the human DNA which
# conducts it.
how did you begin to identify and evaluate any
93 Current outside abstract conceptions thereof?
do you think someone has identified some kind of
physiological or protein energy that constitutes
the 93 Current? or is this a metaphor you like?
# ...you have attempted to divide Thelema against
as usual, your primary mode of argument appears
to be corrupted and insulting evaluations of what
you want to think that i mean or believe. as such,
I am omitting this irritant as unimportant.
it is DEFINITELY my interest to bring Thelema to
a self-reflective posture and practice. it is
that which i have noticed is sorely lacking in
at least the cults to which i have made mention
and many of the individuals with strong opinions
fomenting discord and strife interior to Thelemic
forums and interactions personally. individuals
whom i have encountered in the Thelemic society
more often varied as they swept toward philosophy.
# A great deal of effort,
thanks, but it isn't really that much. you may
wish to consider the possibility that our
interaction is minimal and your view of me is
obscured by your hateful projections. maybe i
type WAY faster than you. I cannot be sure.
# driven by personal prejudice toward the OTO,
LOL! first the drive-bys of new OTO members
come through complaining that i am anti-OTO,
then the anti-OTO people insist that i am
a 'Caliphate Plant', and now you seem to be
arguing something akin to the latter, and
with just as little substance. straw men all.
# an organization which itself is only
# peripherally related to Thelema.
its primary aim relates to Thelema as it
understands it (promulgation of the Law of
Thelema), so i'm unsure how you arrive at
this conclusion. please support it. :)