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Re: [t93] enochian magick.../Are there Demons, Angels, Evil and Good?

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  • tom chaudoin
    Mike ... ... Mike, I find you a complete ass, :-D, Crowley s own descriptions are contradictory with Class A symbolism
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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      "Mike" <rockout93@...>
      > This is a novel take on the three schools. From Magick Without Tears:

      <snip quote>

      > So here we have the Black school (NOT to be confused with black
      > magick or the black lodge) expounding a purely Transcendent Spirit,
      > with this World either fallen and corrupt, or an illusion that
      > imprisons (called by some "ascenders" because they seek to ascend out
      > of this World never to return).
      >
      > We have the White school expounding a Spirit that is both Emminent and
      > Transcendant (with a perverion of this school being the black lodge,
      > which believes only in an Eminent Spirit, denying the Transcendent -
      > for example scientific materialism - in this form called by some
      > "descenders").
      >
      > And we have the Yellow school, expounding also the unity of
      > Transcendant and Eminent spirit, but being passive where the White
      > school is active (both white and yellow scools being called non-dual,
      > though this only applies to the healthy form of the white).
      >
      > The passage you quote from the vision and the voice is the same one
      > quoted by Crowley in Magick Without Tears chapter VI, which is
      > concerned with the three schools and which I qouted above (as well as
      > the following two chapters). Judging from your interpretation of this
      > quote it seems that you have not read these chapters, as you
      > completly contradict Crowleys' interpretation. Your confusion of the
      > Black school with the black lodge is indication enough that you do not
      > understand the subject. Please, out of self-respect, do a little
      > more research (even a very little!) before writing an essay explaining
      > matters you don't understand.
      >
      > hoping you don't find me a complete ass,

      Mike, I find you a complete ass, :-D, Crowley's own descriptions are
      contradictory with 'Class A symbolism' all the time. The last ten aeythyrs
      of Liber 418 are of course, Class A. Yes I have read Magick Without Tears
      and I understand Crowley's definitions of the Three Schools. I, however, do
      not regard the Prophet as an infallible source of info on these concepts.

      Also, Class A documents, by definition, REQUIRE individuals to form their
      own interpretation of them, rather than fanatically adhere to every word of
      technical literature Crowley wrote.

      What I wrote was a speculative essay about the nature of the three schools
      based upon an entirely different literary interpretation of them. In this
      case: one drawn from Frater Achad's writings. I was in no wise attempting to
      lay down some overarching definition of these concepts. I tend not to
      swallow everything Crowley wrote literally, this kernel of gnosis about the
      three schools is mine entirely, and I was aware beforehand that it did not
      jibe with a classical definition of it.

      I think you're hairsplitting because of a singular description of something
      which you adhere to, which is not the only valid one. What I wrote was not
      an 'explanation' it was speculation, and properly prefaced as such. I dont
      think the '3 schools' are an overarching metaphor either, I think these
      descriptions are entirely Crowley's, even though he denies: "The terminology
      is unfortunate, but it wasn't I that did it." Its another idea, or symbol,
      which can be contemplated, or expounded upon.

      Novel takes are my specialty. Thanks for the feedback, you seem like a nice
      enough fellow.

      Thelema,

      T.

      [Moderator reformatted for readability, removed excess quotation.]
    • Aryobrand
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. To address a few inaccuracies . . . ... Unfortunately this is not true. The only portion of Liber 418 in
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 26, 2006
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        Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

        To address a few inaccuracies . . .

        --- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "tom chaudoin" <taammuz@...>
        wrote:
        > The last ten aeythyrs
        > of Liber 418 are of course, Class A. Yes I have read Magick

        Unfortunately this is not true. The only portion of Liber 418 in
        Class A is the section giving instructions on the Ritual for the
        Knowledge and Conversation of the H.G.A. in, I think, 8th Aethyr
        (Sorry my copy is packed.) Nothing else is Class A. However,
        whether 666's descriptions are in Class A or Class F is immaterial
        to the FACTS of the matter :)

        You seem to place great value in the words of Frater Achad. Do you
        also agree with his 'tz Cha'im diagram as well? <:|

        Achad's entire problem with his Tree of Life diagram was that he
        thought these Sephiroth and paths were INTELLECTUAL ideas ONLY, not
        symbols of actual facts within your spirit body (Macropros. too)!!!
        The same analogy can hold here as well. The Three Schools of Magick
        are actual facts within the spirit realms. The geography or layout
        of the land, if you will. Do these represent physical organizations
        of men and women? Soror Meral (Phyllis Seckler) always believed
        that there HAD to be a physical external organization, with by-laws
        and/or exams, etc. This merely opens up a further question, I
        think. ;)

        As with ANY system of symbolism, these either coincide with the way
        things are or they don't. If the particular system you're
        investigating is based upon a false premise, all of the cleaning-out
        ("ausputzung" Also sprach Nietzsche der Antichrist) of that system
        will never make it an efficiently working system. If the temples
        are founded on shaky foundations, tear them down!!! Lend a
        hand . . .

        IMO I think you may suffer from the same problem as Frater Achad
        did! You state in your reply

        > What I wrote was a speculative essay about the nature of the three
        schools
        > based upon an entirely different literary interpretation of them.

        "What I wrote was a SPECULATIVE essay about the nature of the three
        schools BASED UPON an entirely different LITERARY INTERPRETATION of
        them." (Capitals are mine, as well as capitols) I think this
        couldn't state the case more clearly! :)

        rockout93 was right on the money in his posting when he said

        > > do a little
        > > more research (even a very little!) before writing an essay
        explaining
        > > matters you don't understand.

        I think you would do well to check the ingredients of your

        > kernel of gnosis
        , taammuz. They just might be Feces Pieces.

        Love is the law, love under will.

        Aryobrand
        (joining the asses of Baphomet)
        ;)
      • tom chaudoin
        From: Aryobrand ... Hey if you wish to be a fanatical Crowleyite then go ahead, if we cant riff on an idea interpreting what we
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 27, 2006
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          From: "Aryobrand" <destroy_the_oto@...>
          > ...The only portion of Liber 418 in
          > Class A is the section giving instructions on the Ritual for the
          > Knowledge and Conversation of the H.G.A. in, I think, 8th Aethyr
          > (Sorry my copy is packed.) Nothing else is Class A. However,
          > whether 666's descriptions are in Class A or Class F is immaterial
          > to the FACTS of the matter :)
          >
          > You seem to place great value in the words of Frater Achad. Do you
          > also agree with his 'tz Cha'im diagram as well? <:|
          >
          > Achad's entire problem with his Tree of Life diagram was that he
          > thought these Sephiroth and paths were INTELLECTUAL ideas ONLY, not
          > symbols of actual facts within your spirit body (Macropros. too)!!!
          > The same analogy can hold here as well. The Three Schools of Magick
          > are actual facts within the spirit realms. The geography or layout
          > of the land, if you will. Do these represent physical organizations
          > of men and women? Soror Meral (Phyllis Seckler) always believed
          > that there HAD to be a physical external organization, with by-laws
          > and/or exams, etc. This merely opens up a further question, I
          > think. ;)
          >
          > As with ANY system of symbolism, these either coincide with the way
          > things are or they don't. If the particular system you're
          > investigating is based upon a false premise, all of the cleaning-out
          > ("ausputzung" Also sprach Nietzsche der Antichrist) of that system
          > will never make it an efficiently working system. If the temples
          > are founded on shaky foundations, tear them down!!! Lend a
          > hand . . .
          >
          > IMO I think you may suffer from the same problem as Frater Achad
          > did! You state in your reply
          >
          > > What I wrote was a speculative essay about the nature of the three
          > schools
          > > based upon an entirely different literary interpretation of them.
          >
          > "What I wrote was a SPECULATIVE essay about the nature of the three
          > schools BASED UPON an entirely different LITERARY INTERPRETATION of
          > them." (Capitals are mine, as well as capitols) I think this
          > couldn't state the case more clearly! :)
          >
          > rockout93 was right on the money in his posting when he said
          >
          > > > do a little
          > > > more research (even a very little!) before writing an essay
          > explaining
          > > > matters you don't understand.
          >
          > I think you would do well to check the ingredients of your
          >
          > > kernel of gnosis
          > , taammuz. They just might be Feces Pieces.

          Hey if you wish to be a fanatical Crowleyite then go ahead, if we cant riff
          on an idea interpreting what we read then what good is this elaborate medium
          of discourse otherwise known as the internet?

          Being a QBLH member I do place stock in the writings of Achad, before he
          went crazy he seemed to be an objective contemporary of Crowley. Also yes,
          the QBLH takes great stock in Achad's writings, including Liber 31 and 'The
          Anatomy of the Body of God'.

          As I had understood, Liber 418 is Class 'A-B', and the last ten aeythyrs are
          Class A. I could be wrong, will check it out.

          T.


          [Moderator reformatted; TOP-POSTED; see the Posting Style Guides]
        • eyeofhoor
          ... Facts can be proven. I doubt you can prove the factual existence of the spirit body. ... Spirit realms are a matter of subjective perception, there is no
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 27, 2006
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            --- "Aryobrand" <destroy_the_oto@...> wrote:

            > Achad's entire problem with his Tree of Life diagram was that he
            > thought these Sephiroth and paths were INTELLECTUAL ideas ONLY, not
            > symbols of actual facts within your spirit body (Macropros.
            > too)!!!

            Facts can be proven. I doubt you can prove the factual existence of
            the spirit body.

            > The same analogy can hold here as well. The Three Schools of
            > Magick are actual facts within the spirit realms. The geography or
            > layout of the land, if you will.

            Spirit realms are a matter of subjective perception, there is no
            proof spirit realms exist--perhaps you should reconsider your liberal
            and inappropriate use of the term *facts*.


            Nexus93
          • Aryobrand
            Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ahh. The question is again asked, What is truth? Although Pilate jested, Crowley waited for an answer, and
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 28, 2006
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              Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

              Ahh.

              The question is again asked, "What is truth?" Although Pilate
              jested, Crowley waited for an answer, and now I am challenged to
              elucidate this Mystery. Well, I can do what I can, which might not
              be much. :)


              --- In thelema93-l@yahoogroups.com, "eyeofhoor" <owner@...> wrote:
              > Facts can be proven. I doubt you can prove the factual existence
              of
              > the spirit body.
              >

              If something cannot be proven, is it not capable of being fact?
              Hmmm. Many miscarriages of justice result directly from lawyers
              proving lies. Is provability really a necessary criterion for
              something being accepted as a fact? :) LOL Maybe the world still IS
              flat :O LOL

              Nevertheless, by 'prove' are you asking if I can provide scientific
              proof that would convince everyone, or just the scientifically
              minded, or perhaps only mystics. As an example, many psychic/police
              collaborations seem to provide factual evidence of a spirit body,
              i.e. that a psychic can step into an alternate consciousness that
              appears to be a separate spirit body - or at least traces/remnants
              of it ;) - in order to gather clues on a crime scene from the
              deceased victim's perspective. Would evidence of this sort PROVE
              the existence of a spirit body? Perhaps, or perhaps not; it all
              depends on what proves facts to you. :)

              (By the way, isn't the common standard of provability merely having
              the skill of persuasion.) ;)

              Perhaps another interpretation of what you're asking me is "Can I
              prove the factual existence of the spirit body to you personally?"
              I can't answer this question, I hardly know you. If Crowley is to
              be believed (Yes, I know - If 666 wrote it, it HAS to be wrong!),
              his experiments with Astral Projection with his student in the Far
              East would be a good place to begin if one is serious about having
              the factual existence of the spirit body proven to themselves. In
              the experiment, 666 and a female student took turns astral
              projecting to the location of the other. Upon returning from their
              separately-begun-journeys in the spirit body, they compared notes
              about their activities of which they both performed a part.

              This experiment can be advantageously modified to extend the
              practice. I still feel that 666's greatest contribution was the
              focusing of the scientific method towards the subjects/aim of
              religion. :) Without establishing a scientific basis for any
              experimentation, any effort at progress is usually illusory, or
              rather, wasted. :(

              Proving something to another is a completely different process than
              perception from experience combined with empirical evidence.

              Are there other methods of interpreting the situation which does not
              use the term 'spirit body'? Of course. A story that, I think, Bill
              Heidrick used in another context seems to fit my concept here of
              belief vs. reality: One can believe that under the hood of your car
              are elves on a treadmill that transform themselves magically into a
              four-stroke combustion engine upon lifting the hood. Without any
              doubt, this may appear to be true or factual on some level.
              However, it won't prove too USEFUL as a TOOL to further one's
              progress on whatever path they tread if one's perception does not
              correspond with the, yes, facts of Nature.

              The concept of Schools of Magic being a convenient classification to
              logically separate the philosophical basis of magickal practitioners
              upon their fundamental inner point of view (i.e. Existence as
              Sorrow/Curse, Existence as Joy/Celebration, Existence as "Who Cares -
              Go beyond it!" can also approximately sum up the nature of the
              practitioners of the Three Schools. Black was chosen as a colour by
              the ancients since it absorbs all light, and therefore gives off no
              light. To suddenly decide that one feels the Black School of Magic
              should represent people that paint their bedrooms red (as a
              ridiculous example), from no other basis than confabulating from
              what you've read (As long as it wasn't by the evil Crowley, of
              course!), does not produce many USEFUL TOOLS for the would-be mage. :
              (

              On the other hand, philosophically or mystically since all is Maya,
              do therefore facts not exist? Does wood still float on water, even
              if the perception of both is the symptom of a disease of semen. Is
              there still some system of correspondence through which the Universe
              is perceived, establishing proper proportion and functionality
              between its components? Regardless that you feel that:

              > Spirit realms are a matter of subjective perception, there is no
              > proof spirit realms exist

              Do spirit realms contain facts? And since, if spirit realms are a
              matter of subjective perception, do matters of subjective perception
              contain facts? Apparently so. :)

              Does this imply that everyone's vision of reality is just as valid
              as another's? :O Even Charlie Manson's??, or a cannibalistic
              delusional schizophrenic's??? @|-B To accept such a stretch of
              logic would be to EARN the hard knocks of Nature that would result
              from a course of action based upon such misunderstanding. ;)

              Just as previous postings on the subject of the Dragon Asana
              addressed the point of a particular position being more or less
              useful than another. If many people find physical danger in this
              pose, it obviously won't be a USEFUL TOOL for them with which to
              quiet the mind. Speaking of quieting the mind . . . Almost
              there . . .

              >--perhaps you should reconsider your liberal
              > and inappropriate use of the term *facts*.
              >
              >
              > Nexus93
              >

              LOL I haven't been called liberal since Berkeley. LOL LOL
              LOL :) Yes, I reconsidered my use of the term facts and feel that
              it's still appropriate. :O

              Love is the law, love under will.

              Aryobrand
              (still killing off my own perceptions)
            • atmacomte
              ... aeythyrs are Class A. I could be wrong, will check it out.
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 1 8:52 PM
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                tom chaudoin wrote:

                >As I had understood, Liber 418 is Class 'A-B', and the last ten
                aeythyrs are Class A. I could be wrong, will check it out.<

                The 8th aire is in Class D for an Adeptus Minor Without in the
                A.'.A.'.. Although _Liber VIII_ is an Official Ritual of the A.'.A.'.,
                it is to be regarded, in my opinion, more symbolic that it should
                practical. The 18th aire so far as it concerns the method of recording
                the visions of the aires is in Class A for the Neophyte. Below ZAX,
                the 10th aire, is Class B for Neophytes. Beyond ZAX is Class A for
                Neophytes; all of whom, it bears mentioning, are to show control over
                the entire astral plane.

                If we are to give any credence at all to Aleister Crowley's precepts
                pertaining the nature of the astral plane in _Book IV_ (Appendix III
                _Notes for an Astral Atlas_), then we are left with the realization
                that while revealing and symbolic, the visions of the aies do not have
                in themselves any bearing on our initiation, practically. However
                there's a theme found in _Liber 418_: the astral plane contains within
                it the reflections of all 10 Sephirot found on the Tree of Life; to
                include the Abyss.

                To paraphrase the New Comment reagrding the astral,"Therein will seem
                as if an entire Universe." It is up to us to figure-out how, without
                the aid of visions Enochian or otherwise, to traverse the entire Tree
                of Life found within the astral to become an Adeptus Minor Within.

                There are of course other methods to the same end, but none so apt to
                deceive than going at it from within the astral.
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