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Re: [t93] Re: Theories of Will (Additional Material from FCHaddock Ph.D.)

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  • Jason Majere
    ... So that s what Thelema has in common with chaos magick. ;-) Jason ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad
    Message 1 of 42 , Aug 7, 2004
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      --- 333 <nagasiva@...> wrote:

      > #> Not one Thelemite can agree as to what Thelema
      > is

      So that's what Thelema has in common with chaos
      magick. ;-)

      Jason

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    • 333
      50041113 viii om Stephen Charest : # ...if crossing the abyss is the ultimate spiritual promotion, it isn t the ultimate. usually
      Message 42 of 42 , Nov 13, 2004
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        50041113 viii om

        Stephen Charest <schwarzegeiger@...>:
        # ...if "crossing the abyss" is the ultimate spiritual promotion,

        it isn't the ultimate. usually there are more described beyond it,
        however they may be metamorphosed into one another. 'promotion'
        also seems to participate in the idea that there are Overseers
        or Guardians handing out promotions to the qualified candidates.

        # is it appropriate for those of us who are still on this side
        # -- whether, like me, just leaving the starting blocks or other
        # who are waiting their turn to make the jump

        that's a humorous image: mages in queue ready to cross.

        # -- to make the determination as to who has "truly" crossed?

        appropriateness of assessing actual spiritual advancement for
        those interested in the method of SCIENCE is definitely
        indicated. it is the method of RELIGION which will prevent us
        from attempting such comparisons, evaluations, and dissuade
        others from attempting achievement, rigidifying the tradition
        surrounding their cultist leaders as the ultimate authorities.

        far better to assemble a list as sri catyananda has indicated
        as to the claims of occultists and what they did so as to get
        an idea of behaviours with respect to subjective claims of
        spiritual condition. moreso yet to get sounding reflections
        from those who studied with or interacted with the occultist
        in a meaningful and sustained way, over time.

        # The crossing of the abyss bestows great powers and status
        # on the crosee, it appears.

        what is the nature of these powers? we ought to be able to
        gather a list together of what is *said* about the terrain.

        # Thus, she who has crossed has learned a Great Lesson.

        one might also associate it with 'the Oath of the Abyss'
        and indicate its nondual stature of consciousness, its
        residency within what we might call 'God' (to preserve a
        popular Judeochristian glorification).

        # Yet everything I have read thus far tells me that the
        # Crosee can't begin to come back and teach us what she
        # has learned.

        coming back is not necessarily required for expression.
        return to that state of consciousness from which the
        magician started the Crossing only delimits when that
        Abysmal Crossing is post-mortem -- something I claim is
        being used to dupe countless religiomystics (because
        there is no soul or secondary spiritual 'body' -- it is
        a fabrication to entice and enslave the Herd whose
        *present* condition would otherwise incite rebellion).

        # We have to climb that proverbial mountain for ourselves.

        compare many other types of mysticism and their emphasis
        on 'doing the work oneself'. it is fairly unusual for the
        religiomagical aspirant to think that their superior can
        donate the fruits of their labouurs to their 'account',
        as it were. this line of argument is often used to inspire
        conversion to the application of the cult's technology
        (rites, doctrines, etc.).

        # Personally, I would have to apply the "caveat bunko"
        # test to anyone who claims to have crossed the abyss,

        defining this would seem imperative. from what might one
        be said to 'return'? are we talking about disembodied
        ghosts as Masters or Secret Chiefs? if so, then your
        suggestion requires some kind of 'reincarnation', and
        then any human might be a Master of the Universe, having
        traversed the stupendous spiritual Adventures in previous
        lifetimes. within a traditional lineage where skepticism
        about attainment is an dropped within the axiomatic
        religious method to establish the continuing soul's path,
        persona-vehicle, karma-shell, etc., and the "new body"
        inhabited by the soul-meat-puppet (cf. Krishnamurti's
        manipulated World Teacher debacle within Theosophy).

        # then comes back and founds the Grand Temple of the
        # Illuminated Pyramid or anything like it.

        what it indicates: someone wishes to

        give the impression of adeptship

        make available the superior instruction

        the former may be important to adepts, or may be used
        by the sincerely deluded and the charlatan to achieve
        their purposes. the latter can easily be evaluated by
        comparison with other, more traditional, material,
        as to its 'superior' quality. from lesser conditions
        what is supposed 'superior' will of course be missed
        in its actual character, mistaken for that of the
        inferior or unknown quality (as it should be).

        let everyone found their Grand Temples. let others
        thereafter evaluate the need for such temples and
        explain the value of any individual construct for
        the benefit of those who are seeking them out.

        # But I can't impose that determination on another.

        imposition implies that the other will necessarily
        adopt your assessment. it is correct that you cannot
        impose that, and surely they would not accept your
        determination as anything more meaningful than that
        it comes from your keyboard. where your keyboard
        gains in some kind of auspicious, or reliable,
        reputation, so will the assessment mean more to the
        reader. you *can* provide reflections from your
        admittedly limited viewpoint (just like I do about
        the magical/mystical condition of the Beast as a
        failure due to the character of his text-trail).

        # Nor can another, no matter how lofty his station,
        # do that for me.

        they certainly can, and within certain contexts it
        is ENTIRELY appropriate (because the authority of
        the reviewer *within a given context* is attested
        or believed by their superiors). compare religious
        and masonic traditions and how they recognize or
        cease recognition of their comparable lineages.

        333
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