- ... ??? I can think of few spiritual/religious practices *less* scientific than Bhakti yoga. --PTMessage 1 of 21 , Jul 3, 2003View Source--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Keith355" <keith94@h...> wrote:
> 93 all,???
> The "method of religion" can be made scientific - this is bhakti
I can think of few spiritual/religious practices *less* scientific
than Bhakti yoga.
- 50030703 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006 ... thus the purpose of religion would be facilitating particular experiences. its failure would be demonstrated by lack ofMessage 2 of 21 , Jul 3, 2003View Source50030703 viii om Pisces-Age-Y2006
>> there's a lot of failure to choose from. why not see this less assor aena / eve cheshier <walden418@...>:
>> a failure of some particular religion than of religion as a whole?
> ...when religious instituions/rituals or such fail to provide the participantsthus the purpose of religion would be facilitating particular experiences.
> with the sought-after feeling of "sacredness" which could feel different for
> each individual, I guess , then it disappears or becomes just an ethnic focal
> point or a social gathering focal point assuming the institution/ritual serves
> still serves taht purpose as well as having served the "sacredness" purpose at
> one time.
its failure would be demonstrated by lack of behaviour consonant with the
experience (shaking, drooling, or whatever one might associate with the
>> ....if we make the transition from the Method of Religion to the Methodusually these two are contrasted, aren't they? to think of science as a
>> of Science, perhaps we'd be more successful all around. arguably, religion
>> is the *problem*, not the solution.
> While method-of-science aim-of-religion has worked fairly well for me,
> I have often pondered whether science is the new religion.
new religion we'd have to attribute to it some kind of preliminary dogmas,
the contention that what it has derived from its empirical and socially-
confirmed knowledge ought to be regarded as true even if senses differ
(part of the criticism of 'pop science' and inexpert communication of it).
religions do seem to develop *around* scientific systems, regardless of
whether those sciences are materially-based. I tend to think of sciences
as methodical systems of knowledge-generation with variable results.
in this manner, associations with them (as with religion or with such
applications as engineering) can be easily seen and evaluated. we might
ask about the applied value of any particular mystical system's set of
icons or description of how things work, for example.
> ...I've wondered whether ritual a la the value scale of Jungiangranted such collectivity (usually the collective *unconscious*) and such
> archetypes just gives me access to archetypes already imbedded in the
> collective consciousness.
archetypes (in which I personally do not believe), ritual appears to be a
context in which trance makes more apparent symbolism that would seem to
correlate with those underlying personal (and universal) structures, yes.
changing them is impossible, according to most Jungian theorists,
but changing one's *relation* to them and the dynamics of interaction
with them may be a quite important endeavour and might be reflected
in the external guises or costumes they assume when manifesting.
> ...perpetuating archetypes that weren't part of the old aeon,archetypes themselves are usually considered nonidentifiable, some kind
> like the Beast and Babalon, in their new aeon outfits,
of underlying substructure to most if not all of human consciousness.
these appear, by Jungian and Neo-Jungian theory, within the various
cultural symbol-sets people use to explain the unexplainable (such as
the origin of all things). their form, therefore, varies considerably,
abstract equations across cultures being compared to shore up the
fundamental theory describing these psychosocial databit-characters
(and thereafter being deconstructed as limited and eventually serving
to undermine the claims of universality of these presumed archetypes).
as such, the Beast and Babalon ought to be identifiable in other
cultures if they are attuned to some kind of archetype, by this theory.
i.e. New Aeons don't result in new archetypes. the concept of a 'new
archetype' is Neo-Jungian, since Jung presumed these to be more or
less hard-wired in human beings *regardless of cultural context*,
an underlying imprinting genetically-inherited after humanity's
development out of slime-organisms and tree-dwelling predecessors.
> changes thewhat you seem to be talking about here is the replacement of outer
> collective consciousness to have them replace their former forms.
mythological raiments for novel apparences of what Jungians might
call underlying archetypal energies. the shift of focal differences
(as from one thematic Gender Pairing to another or several others)
may mark cultural shifts and spiritual concentrations at variance over
time. whether this occurs due to the novel construction in contrast
to predecessors or appears to broaden over entire societies as a kind
of 'aeonic conversion' would seem to depend on the character or need
of the dominant genetic predisposition or condition.
there is no true 'collective consciousness' excepting in small groups
or dominating cultures manifesting their interior symbolism (as on
television in a mass culture appeal to standardized models of beauty
or consumerist purchase-promotions). if you could find such a
collective consciousness, then you might undermine Jungian theory,
inverting its underlying, presupposed, universal archetypes. ;>
> 93s loveE6s
- 93 Keith, The method of science is as follows: (a) through what can only be described as art or imagination conjoined with one s observations of events,Message 3 of 21 , Jul 4, 2003View Source93 Keith,
The method of science is as follows: (a) through what
can only be described as art or imagination conjoined
with one's observations of events, develop a theory
from which you can (b) draw a hypothesis that predicts
events in the following form-- if A then B and not C.
(See, e.g., Karl Popper, The Logic of Scientific
Discovery); (c) if C appears, your theory is refuted.
Otherwise, your theory remains standing until someone
refutes it in the foregoing method. That's science.
(Note that part (a), the most interesting part, arises
solely from the human imagination). Is that what I do
in my temple-space each day? Maybe.
Crowley's treatment of spiritual attainment as
"science" was a product of his nineteenth-century
upbringing. In the nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries, everything strove to present itself as a
"science." (See, e.g., everything Karl Marx and
Herbert Spencer ever wrote).
Whether what we do can be described as a "science"
depends, I think, upon the following: if we use the
system Crowley developed, do we obtain the predicted
results? If not, what system produces the predicted
results? This is a scientific approach to spiritual
attainment, and I think this is what Crowley meant by
Your comments regarding the escape into morality and
so forth make sense to me. Results matter, and, as
far as I can tell, are what matter most of all.
Anyone who does this work will find that there is no
substitute for practical work. The "science" emerges
in the work.
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- 93 all, ... I can understand why you say this, but I d ask that you look at Liber Astarte again and see the effort AC is putting into dealing with thisMessage 4 of 21 , Jul 4, 2003View Source93 all,
> > The "method of religion" can be made scientific - this is bhaktiI can understand why you say this, but I'd ask that you look at
> > yoga
> I can think of few spiritual/religious practices *less* scientific
> than Bhakti yoga.
Liber Astarte again and see the effort AC is putting into dealing
with this problem. He is working, I think it's quite clear, to take
something that is intrinsically difficult to deal with objectively,
and attempting to set up objective guidelines and approaches around
Speaking for myself, I did a Liber Astarte working once that I felt
was somewhat successful. My teacher, wiser than I, had me
discontinue it because - as he explained it - the successful
elements were threatening to turn into problems. Liber Astarte is
set up to capture and focus the true power of religious devotion in
as objective a way as possible. This is not easy, for any number of
reasons, but it is completely in keeping with AC's attempts to make
work towards illumination something informed and strengthened by a
scientific approach and not just a mystical one.
- Thelema, A very happy Holy Day to those who choose to celebrate. Today is the anniversary of the Battle of Hattin, Saladin s greatest victory. Those who don tMessage 5 of 21 , Jul 4, 2003View SourceThelema,
A very happy Holy Day to those who choose to celebrate. Today is the
anniversary of the Battle of Hattin, Saladin's greatest victory.
Those who don't already know, can read more about Hattin here:
Have a lovely day.
- Thelema, When my great-grandmother died and I went to her funeral, I met scores of relatives whose existence I had previously been unaware. I began walking upMessage 6 of 21 , Jul 5, 2003View SourceThelema,
When my great-grandmother died and I went to her funeral, I met scores of
relatives whose existence I had previously been unaware. I began walking up
to people I'd never seen before in my life and asking them, "what relation
are you to me?" and "When was the last time you saw my Grandmom Mary
alive?" I met great-great-uncles and third cousins twice removed and many,
many people who hadn't seen my Grandmom Mary in twenty years or more.
Afterwards, my mother asked me what I thought of the funeral and I told her
that Grandmom Mary would sure have loved to have seen a lot of those people
while she was still alive to enjoy their visit.
In that spirit, I'd like to take this moment to thank some people for being
alive and show gratitude that their lives have touched mine in some way.
I'm not mentioning everyone and if I don't mention you, I apologize. Anyone
I've ever met has touched my life in one way or another. I'm just thanking
the people who are in the forefront of my mind at this moment, as I write
this post. I want to memorialize the people who matter to me while they are
alive instead of saying great things behind their back after they are dead.
Thank you 333 for being kind and accepting towards me and thank you for
asking the hard questions that really push my mind and spirit to grow.
Thank you Mr. Heidrick. Though we don't know one another well, you've
always been kind and gentlemanly to me and I treasure every contact we've
had, no matter how brief or seemingly insignificant.
Thank you David Jones for being my friend and for encouraging my questing
without an attitude of superiority in years, wisdom or degree. You have
treated me like an equal and for that I thank you.
Thank you Kjetil for being my friend and for not laughing at my pathetic
attempts to learn Norwegian. You have been open and honest with me and kind
to those I love. Glede og helse til du og dine familie. Du er min dyr venn
Thank you Rikb for answering my pesky questions with depth, sincerity and
Thank you Cavalorn for being welcoming to me, even across "party lines."
Though I didn't take you up on it, thank you for the hospitality extended.
It does mean a lot to me.
Thank you Melusine for being my friend through all our moves across the
country. You have opened my eyes to new things and shared your hopes and
dreams with me. I cherish that.
Thank you, my initiators, for the time and energy you have devoted to
sharing the light that was offered to you. You have chosen a path that
sometimes draws as much criticism as joy, perhaps more. I want to take this
moment to thank you for the sacrifices you have made.
And, most of all, thank you Reverend Rob for continuing to love me with all
my flaws, foibles and inconsistencies. You encourage me to fly through life
and I hope that I am able to give you even a portion of what you've given me.
Thank you all for touching my life. And thank you to those who have been a
light to my path though I, in my human fallibility, have forgotten to
mention or thank you today. May you all have many long years of happiness
and health ahead of you.