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Re: [t93] Re: Orthodoxy

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  • Lona Bab
    93, I see what you are saying, but personally I don t think your Will has to be unorthodox. Sometimes it is your will to drive to work. To what end? To make
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 4, 2002
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      93,
      I see what you are saying, but personally I don't
      think your Will has to be unorthodox.
      Sometimes it is your will to drive to work.
      To what end?
      To make money.
      To what end?
      To pay my rent.
      To what end?
      So that I can live some place where I can do the Great
      Work.

      And as can be assumed, sometimes it is my will to eat,
      and take a dump, and such.

      93.


      --- eyeofhoor <eyeofhoor@...> wrote:
      > --- In thelema93-l@y..., "posterchilde"
      > <posterchilde@k...> wrote:
      > > Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
      > >
      > > Thought: What is Orthodox Thelema?
      >
      > 93,
      >
      > 'Orthodox Thelema' is an oxymoron. As a concept
      > embodying
      > the expression of individual will, 'Do what thou
      > wilt' must by its
      > very nature include will-based expressions deemed
      > unorthodox by set
      > standards, regardless of who sets them.
      >
      > Prophet 718
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • frater_vitae
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. ... b :CONVENTIONAL ... conservative religious or political groups: as a : EASTERN ORTHODOX b : of or
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 5, 2002
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        "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

        --- In thelema93-l@y..., "posterchilde" <posterchilde@k...> wrote:
        > Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
        >
        > Thought: What is Orthodox Thelema?
        >
        > Main Entry: or·tho·dox
        > Function: adjective
        > Date: 15th century
        > 1 a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion
        b :CONVENTIONAL
        > 2 capitalized : of, relating to, or constituting any of various
        conservative religious or political groups: as a : EASTERN ORTHODOX
        b : of or relating to Orthodox Judaism
        >
        > Discussion: [Ignoring the endless debate over the pre-Crowley
        antecedents] Is there such a creature as Orthodox Thelema?
        >
        > If so ...
        >
        > What constitutes the basics of Orthodox Thelema/Thelemic
        Fundamentalism?
        > Are there certain practices that would be considered paramount to
        such a lifestyle?
        > Or would this be considered yet another magical path?
        > [add your own thoughts/questions here for discussion]
        >
        > Love is the law, love under will.
        > posterchilde for divergant conversation
        >

        The only definition (of orthodox, I'm not going to get intot he
        Thelema debate ;) ) that can rationally be used here would be 1a
        > 1 a : conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

        So we must first address what the "established doctrine" of Thelema
        is.

        Doctrine (with reference to religion) is defined as:
        "A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or
        belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic
        group; dogma."

        So what are the principles by which Thelemites distinguish themselves
        from others?

        The most obvious ones are:

        "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
        "Love is the Law, love under Will."

        Now both of these quotes are taken from Liber AL, and as The Comment
        states:
        "Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by
        all, as centres of pestilence.
        All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my
        writings, each for himself."
        Thus precluding any discussion on the meanings, structures etc.. (at
        least within "Orthodox Thelema" ;) )

        So we are left with a dilema, we have our principles, clearly(ish)
        stated, but we cannot discuss them and therefore formulate a
        universal interpretation which can become the "established
        principles" of Thelema, and eventually dogma.

        Personally I feel that this is one of the unique aspects of Thelema
        as a religion and it cannot be subverted or denied.

        So we come back to the question of: What is "Orthodox Thelema"?

        And it would appear that we cannot establish any "Dogma" within
        Thelema, but perhaps that in itself can be considered a defining and
        established principle.

        So in answer Thelemites are Orthodox if they abide by the established
        principles of Thelema, which can only be to form their own opinion on
        the Law and not to seek to influence others opinions on it.

        "Love is the Law, love under Will."

        Frater VITAE
      • alephnull0
        ... antecedents] Is there such a creature as Orthodox Thelema? ... Fundamentalism? ... such a lifestyle? 93 There are as many Orthodox Thelemas as there are
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 5, 2002
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          --- In thelema93-l@y..., "posterchilde" <posterchilde@k...> wrote:

          >
          > Discussion: [Ignoring the endless debate over the pre-Crowley
          antecedents] Is there such a creature as Orthodox Thelema?
          >
          > If so ...
          >
          > What constitutes the basics of Orthodox Thelema/Thelemic
          Fundamentalism?
          > Are there certain practices that would be considered paramount to
          such a lifestyle?

          93

          There are as many "Orthodox Thelemas" as there are "Thelemic" bullies
          who can somehow convince other so-called "Thelemites" to "do it their
          way".

          So, I guess the answer is NO. Since multiple Orthodox variants of a
          tradition would actually be Heterodoxy. And since in each of the
          variant Orthodoxies there would be followers who have given up their
          wills to the leader, even viewed individually, the "Thelemic"
          Orthodoxies wouldn't even be Thelemic!

          Perhaps Oxyodox would be a better word?

          93/696
          Aleph
          http://www.egnu.org/
        • Eric O'Dell
          ... Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Contrary to popular belief, there is a difference between cooperation and obedience. The success of social
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 5, 2002
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            On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, alephnull0 wrote:

            > There are as many "Orthodox Thelemas" as there are "Thelemic" bullies
            > who can somehow convince other so-called "Thelemites" to "do it their
            > way".

            Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

            Contrary to popular belief, there is a difference between cooperation and
            obedience. The success of social organisms in competition with solitary
            species strongly suggests that Will demands cooperation a significant
            proportion of the time.

            Moreover, there is a difference between persuasion and coercion. If
            Thelemite A convinces Thelemite B to "do it his way," it is entirely
            possible that Thelemite B is doing so without any bullying on Thelemite
            A's part because Thelemite B perceives some personal advantage.

            Love is the law, love under will.

            Regards,
            Eric
          • hermesx66
            Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, ... We re the most successful animals for a reason, we re social and symbiosis is the foundation of nature s
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 5, 2002
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              Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,

              > Contrary to popular belief, there is a difference between
              > cooperation and obedience. The success of social organisms in
              > competition with solitary species strongly suggests that Will
              > demands cooperation a significant proportion of the time.

              We're the most successful animals for a reason, we're social and
              symbiosis is the foundation of nature's pyramid (tell that to the
              social Darwinists) language being our primary tool.


              Love is the law, love under will,
              Cameron
            • Tim Maroney
              ... What makes us the most successful animals? Seems the species is unlikely to survive more than a few millennia. -- Tim Maroney tim@maroney.org
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 5, 2002
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                > We're the most successful animals for a reason....

                What makes us the most successful animals? Seems the species is unlikely to
                survive more than a few millennia.

                --
                Tim Maroney tim@...
              • hermesx66
                Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law, ... Bah, who are you? the last man! No doubt we are completely fucked, but I think it s because we aren t
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 5, 2002
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                  Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law,

                  > > We're the most successful animals for a reason....
                  >
                  > What makes us the most successful animals? Seems the species is
                  > unlikely to survive more than a few millennia.

                  Bah, who are you? the last man! No doubt we are completely fucked,
                  but I think it's because we aren't communicating properly, an
                  asyemetric distribution of information causes the scum to rise to
                  the top, puppeted by blind forces and unable to improve their selves.


                  Love is the law, love under will,
                  Cameorn
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