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The journal on Macs + Novel writing

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  • quickeningspirit
    As it happens I m also considering migration to a Mac. For those that do not know there are a couple of options. 1. Macs ship with something called Bootcamp.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2008
      As it happens I'm also considering migration to a Mac. For those that do not
      know there are a couple of options.

      1. Macs ship with something called Bootcamp. You can install XP from there
      and effectively run both systems. Con is that you have to reboot from one
      environment to the other.

      2. Cheap software products like Parallels allow the user to create a virtual
      machine. You install XP on that and have your windows environment open
      within OSX just like any other programme, running all your favourite
      windows programmes.

      There is also this: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/ which is
      something that could be utilised in future but from what I can gather David
      would have to work to make The Journal compatible.

      Now, the reason I was writing (before reading those last two posts) is this:
      I'm very interested to know how people use The Journal for
      writing/organising/planning novel writing or at least writing lengthy works.
      It's something I've really been unable to get to grips with in The Journal,
      everything mounts up into a disorganised unsearchable mass of fragments.

      If I do get a Mac I'll be sorely tempted by this:
      http://literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • arail_10007
      A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The Journal - I don t think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2008
        A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The
        Journal -

        I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
        hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
        that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I sorely wish
        it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
        available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use them
        side by side.

        For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
        The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track of my
        assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that would
        pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
        as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
        out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
        contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would become
        just another component of my work, not something apart from it. And I
        don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal gives me
        at the end of the day.

        I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to comment
        on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record what
        days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
        whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
        character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
        couldn't do in the novel itself.

        As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
        many writers happily banging away at their novels with The Journal and
        hopefully they will chime in with advice.





        --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, quickeningspirit
        <quickeningspirit@...> wrote:
        >
        > As it happens I'm also considering migration to a Mac. For those
        that do not
        > know there are a couple of options.
        >
        > 1. Macs ship with something called Bootcamp. You can install XP from
        there
        > and effectively run both systems. Con is that you have to reboot
        from one
        > environment to the other.
        >
        > 2. Cheap software products like Parallels allow the user to create a
        virtual
        > machine. You install XP on that and have your windows environment open
        > within OSX just like any other programme, running all your favourite
        > windows programmes.
        >
        > There is also this: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/ which is
        > something that could be utilised in future but from what I can
        gather David
        > would have to work to make The Journal compatible.
        >
        > Now, the reason I was writing (before reading those last two posts)
        is this:
        > I'm very interested to know how people use The Journal for
        > writing/organising/planning novel writing or at least writing
        lengthy works.
        > It's something I've really been unable to get to grips with in The
        Journal,
        > everything mounts up into a disorganised unsearchable mass of fragments.
        >
        > If I do get a Mac I'll be sorely tempted by this:
        > http://literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Lily
        I am happily banging away at mine :) and while I have major Scrivener-envy, I do think TJ works very well as an organizational AND creative tool in novel
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2008
          I am happily banging away at mine :) and while I have major Scrivener-envy,
          I do think TJ works very well as an organizational AND creative tool in
          novel writing.

          What I do is this:

          I start a new category with the title of my novel, then a category
          underneath labeled "First Draft." In the first draft, all scenes get their
          own entry initially, with the entry title being a snippet that will help me
          remember what happened in the scene. To calculate word count, I export the
          entire First Draft category to rtf and use Word to count, and save that as a
          backup as well in case something happens to TJ.

          When I'm done with the first draft, I simply export and import the entire
          category into a NEW category, this time labeling it "Second Draft", and
          start splicing together and rearranging scenes. Over time, this draft
          begins to naturally form itself into chapters. I may (and certainly anyone
          could) copy at some point to a third draft, to clarify things or make some
          major revisions. In this way, the novel grows organically over time, but
          all stages of the novel are preserved for me to see, should I want to
          reinstate something I've cut, or revert to an old version of a scene or
          chapter, or just look back to see how certain ideas evolved.

          I don't use TJ to print the novel in manuscript form; I export to rtf and
          use Word to set margins, headers, footers, etc. I understand that TJ is
          capable of doing these things, but I've never quite mastered the printer
          functions.

          I would dearly love the index-card functionality of Scrivener, but I find
          that if I break my initial draft into separate scenes, I can still rearrange
          them chronologically with great ease, simply by moving them up or down the
          entry tree.

          Hope that helps. I can do screenies if you'd like, to show you what I mean.




          On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 2:12 PM, arail_10007 <amanuele@...> wrote:

          > A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The
          > Journal -
          >
          > I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
          > hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
          > that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I sorely wish
          > it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
          > available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use them
          > side by side.
          >
          > For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
          > The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track of my
          > assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that would
          > pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
          > as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
          > out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
          > contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would become
          > just another component of my work, not something apart from it. And I
          > don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal gives me
          > at the end of the day.
          >
          > I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to comment
          > on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record what
          > days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
          > whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
          > character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
          > couldn't do in the novel itself.
          >
          > As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
          > many writers happily banging away at their novels with The Journal and
          > hopefully they will chime in with advice.
          >
          > --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com<thejournal-users%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > quickeningspirit
          > <quickeningspirit@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > As it happens I'm also considering migration to a Mac. For those
          > that do not
          > > know there are a couple of options.
          > >
          > > 1. Macs ship with something called Bootcamp. You can install XP from
          > there
          > > and effectively run both systems. Con is that you have to reboot
          > from one
          > > environment to the other.
          > >
          > > 2. Cheap software products like Parallels allow the user to create a
          > virtual
          > > machine. You install XP on that and have your windows environment open
          > > within OSX just like any other programme, running all your favourite
          > > windows programmes.
          > >
          > > There is also this: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/ which is
          > > something that could be utilised in future but from what I can
          > gather David
          > > would have to work to make The Journal compatible.
          > >
          > > Now, the reason I was writing (before reading those last two posts)
          > is this:
          > > I'm very interested to know how people use The Journal for
          > > writing/organising/planning novel writing or at least writing
          > lengthy works.
          > > It's something I've really been unable to get to grips with in The
          > Journal,
          > > everything mounts up into a disorganised unsearchable mass of fragments.
          > >
          > > If I do get a Mac I'll be sorely tempted by this:
          > > http://literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          ___________________________________________________
          Westley: Hear this now: I will always come for you.
          Buttercup: But how can you be sure?
          Westley: This is true love - you think this happens every day?


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Michael
          Crossover Mac is a slightly spiffier version of Wine, the Windows emulator for Linux. The Journal works fine under both Wine and Crossover Mac. I ve written 2
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 2, 2008
            Crossover Mac is a slightly spiffier version of Wine, the Windows
            emulator for Linux. The Journal works fine under both Wine and Crossover
            Mac.

            I've written 2 nonfiction books about video games in The Journal
            (published in 2003 and 2005). Plus, I have a growing number of
            unpublished novels written in The Journal (I'm currently sending out
            agent queries; someone wanna loan me *their* agent???).

            Here's how I've organized my booklength projects:

            First, I use a loose-leaf/Notebook category.

            At the top level, I have entries like this:

            * Outline
            * Characters
            * Research Notes
            * Manuscript
            * Feedback
            * Thoughts

            I use a paragraph-style outline format, so that is usually a single
            entry. Before I make significant changes, though, I'll create a
            sub-entry to hold the previous draft. As a safety net and a record of
            how the project has evolved.

            For major characters, I might create a separate sub-entry under
            "Characters". It depends on how much information I write down about
            them. I usually start with a single entry, and then break it out into
            sub-entries when the information starts to pile up.

            Research Notes gets sub-entries for links and transcripts and blatant
            scraping of information, including scans, that are relevant. Maps,
            demographic information, etc.

            Under Manuscript, I create a sub-entry called "Draft 1", and then create
            sub-entries under that, one for each chapter.

            Feedback is just that: feedback from people who have read parts of the
            work. I make a copy of their emails or scribble quick notes about what
            they tell me. For later reference.

            Under Thoughts I create a date entry. That's where I talk to myself
            about what I've written, am writing, or suddenly consider changing.

            It may seem like a lot of words, but it's pretty straightforward. I try
            to avoid anything too complicated. I prefer simple. =)

            -David

            quickeningspirit wrote:
            > As it happens I'm also considering migration to a Mac. For those that do not
            > know there are a couple of options.
            >
            > 1. Macs ship with something called Bootcamp. You can install XP from there
            > and effectively run both systems. Con is that you have to reboot from one
            > environment to the other.
            >
            > 2. Cheap software products like Parallels allow the user to create a virtual
            > machine. You install XP on that and have your windows environment open
            > within OSX just like any other programme, running all your favourite
            > windows programmes.
            >
            > There is also this: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/ which is
            > something that could be utilised in future but from what I can gather David
            > would have to work to make The Journal compatible.
            >
            > Now, the reason I was writing (before reading those last two posts) is this:
            > I'm very interested to know how people use The Journal for
            > writing/organising/planning novel writing or at least writing lengthy works.
            > It's something I've really been unable to get to grips with in The Journal,
            > everything mounts up into a disorganised unsearchable mass of fragments.
            >
            > If I do get a Mac I'll be sorely tempted by this:
            > http://literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • quickeningspirit
            I wouldn t replace The Journal either. It is the best writing programme I ve ever used. Although Scrivener is really attractive I doubt it would suit general
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 2, 2008
              I wouldn't replace The Journal either. It is the best writing programme I've
              ever used. Although Scrivener is really attractive I doubt it would suit
              general needs - ie. it looks good for what it's designed to do. I really do
              love The Journal but I am aware that, as with all software, having used it
              for a few years I've settled into a way of working which may be
              unnecessarily limiting. My question was probing for tips on other ways of
              working. I can do a lot of things with The Journal but keeping a focus and
              organised method for writing a novel is not something I've gotten to grips
              with. The Journal excels at what it does. I particularly like your take on
              The Journal being suited for writing Commentary. I understand that. In a
              sense it's how I use it mostly and it is what it is best at. Thanks for your
              response. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejournal-users/message/6123;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbGFncDRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjQ4NjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MjA4Njg1BG1zZ0lkAzYxMjMEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjM5MTE4MQ-->
              >>Posted
              by: "arail_10007" amanuele@...
              <amanuele@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20The%20journal%20on%20Macs%20%2B%20Novel%20writing>
              arail_10007
              <http://profiles.yahoo.com/arail_10007> >> >> Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:12 am (PDT)
              A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The
              Journal -

              I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
              hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
              that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I sorely wish
              it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
              available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use them
              side by side.

              For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
              The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track of my
              assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that would
              pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
              as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
              out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
              contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would become
              just another component of my work, not something apart from it. And I
              don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal gives me
              at the end of the day.

              I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to comment
              on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record what
              days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
              whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
              character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
              couldn't do in the novel itself.

              As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
              many writers happily banging away at their novels with The Journal and
              hopefully they will chime in with advice.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • arail_10007
              After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for trials (Page 4,
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 4, 2008
                After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for
                writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for
                trials (Page 4, PowerWriter, StoryView and Liquid Story Binder) and I
                thought I'd share my initial impressions.

                My first and most striking observation - there's nothing out there
                like The Journal. As a rule the programs I'm trying out are ugly (two
                of them look like accounting software from the late 80s and one of the
                others looks like a manga catalogue gone mad) and they're all
                overkill. I'm not sure plotting a novel like a military campaign will
                do anything other than con you into believing you're in control. And
                spending a month just learning a program doesn't seem like a wise use
                of a writers time.

                As I'm going through the trial period I'm asking myself what features
                a program for writers that was similar to The Journal would have. The
                first answer is an outliner. All of these programs have outliners and
                I have to admit, as a writer, it's a useful feature. It does make me
                wonder if a outliner could somehow be rigged up within The Journal.

                More later -




                --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, quickeningspirit
                <quickeningspirit@...> wrote:
                >
                > I wouldn't replace The Journal either. It is the best writing
                programme I've
                > ever used. Although Scrivener is really attractive I doubt it would suit
                > general needs - ie. it looks good for what it's designed to do. I
                really do
                > love The Journal but I am aware that, as with all software, having
                used it
                > for a few years I've settled into a way of working which may be
                > unnecessarily limiting. My question was probing for tips on other
                ways of
                > working. I can do a lot of things with The Journal but keeping a
                focus and
                > organised method for writing a novel is not something I've gotten to
                grips
                > with. The Journal excels at what it does. I particularly like your
                take on
                > The Journal being suited for writing Commentary. I understand that. In a
                > sense it's how I use it mostly and it is what it is best at. Thanks
                for your
                > response.
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejournal-users/message/6123;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbGFncDRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjQ4NjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MjA4Njg1BG1zZ0lkAzYxMjMEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjM5MTE4MQ-->
                > >>Posted
                > by: "arail_10007" amanuele@...
                >
                <amanuele@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20The%20journal%20on%20Macs%20%2B%20Novel%20writing>
                > arail_10007
                > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/arail_10007> >> >> Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:12
                am (PDT)
                > A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The
                > Journal -
                >
                > I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
                > hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
                > that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I sorely wish
                > it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
                > available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use them
                > side by side.
                >
                > For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
                > The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track of my
                > assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that would
                > pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
                > as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
                > out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
                > contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would become
                > just another component of my work, not something apart from it. And I
                > don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal gives me
                > at the end of the day.
                >
                > I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to comment
                > on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record what
                > days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
                > whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
                > character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
                > couldn't do in the novel itself.
                >
                > As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
                > many writers happily banging away at their novels with The Journal and
                > hopefully they will chime in with advice.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Lily
                I ve tried all of those except PowerWriter, and I have to say, I prefer the flexibility of TJ. The others wanted me to plot and outline my novel their way,
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                  I've tried all of those except PowerWriter, and I have to say, I prefer the
                  flexibility of TJ. The others wanted me to plot and outline my novel their
                  way, and I never could manage it.



                  On 6/4/08, arail_10007 <amanuele@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for
                  > writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for
                  > trials (Page 4, PowerWriter, StoryView and Liquid Story Binder) and I
                  > thought I'd share my initial impressions.
                  >
                  > My first and most striking observation - there's nothing out there
                  > like The Journal. As a rule the programs I'm trying out are ugly (two
                  > of them look like accounting software from the late 80s and one of the
                  > others looks like a manga catalogue gone mad) and they're all
                  > overkill. I'm not sure plotting a novel like a military campaign will
                  > do anything other than con you into believing you're in control. And
                  > spending a month just learning a program doesn't seem like a wise use
                  > of a writers time.
                  >
                  > As I'm going through the trial period I'm asking myself what features
                  > a program for writers that was similar to The Journal would have. The
                  > first answer is an outliner. All of these programs have outliners and
                  > I have to admit, as a writer, it's a useful feature. It does make me
                  > wonder if a outliner could somehow be rigged up within The Journal.
                  >
                  > More later -
                  >
                  > --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com<thejournal-users%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > quickeningspirit
                  > <quickeningspirit@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I wouldn't replace The Journal either. It is the best writing
                  > programme I've
                  > > ever used. Although Scrivener is really attractive I doubt it would suit
                  > > general needs - ie. it looks good for what it's designed to do. I
                  > really do
                  > > love The Journal but I am aware that, as with all software, having
                  > used it
                  > > for a few years I've settled into a way of working which may be
                  > > unnecessarily limiting. My question was probing for tips on other
                  > ways of
                  > > working. I can do a lot of things with The Journal but keeping a
                  > focus and
                  > > organised method for writing a novel is not something I've gotten to
                  > grips
                  > > with. The Journal excels at what it does. I particularly like your
                  > take on
                  > > The Journal being suited for writing Commentary. I understand that. In a
                  > > sense it's how I use it mostly and it is what it is best at. Thanks
                  > for your
                  > > response.
                  > <
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejournal-users/message/6123;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbGFncDRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjQ4NjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MjA4Njg1BG1zZ0lkAzYxMjMEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjM5MTE4MQ--
                  > >
                  > > >>Posted
                  > > by: "arail_10007" amanuele@...
                  > >
                  > <amanuele@
                  > ...?Subject=+Re%3A%20The%20journal%20on%20Macs%20%2B%20Novel%20writing>
                  > > arail_10007
                  > > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/arail_10007> >> >> Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:12
                  > am (PDT)
                  > > A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The
                  > > Journal -
                  > >
                  > > I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
                  > > hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
                  > > that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I sorely wish
                  > > it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
                  > > available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use them
                  > > side by side.
                  > >
                  > > For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
                  > > The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track of my
                  > > assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that would
                  > > pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
                  > > as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
                  > > out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
                  > > contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would become
                  > > just another component of my work, not something apart from it. And I
                  > > don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal gives me
                  > > at the end of the day.
                  > >
                  > > I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to comment
                  > > on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record what
                  > > days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
                  > > whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
                  > > character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
                  > > couldn't do in the novel itself.
                  > >
                  > > As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
                  > > many writers happily banging away at their novels with The Journal and
                  > > hopefully they will chime in with advice.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  ___________________________________________________
                  Westley: Hear this now: I will always come for you.
                  Buttercup: But how can you be sure?
                  Westley: This is true love - you think this happens every day?


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • arail_10007
                  Page 4 isn t as overwhelming as the other 3 but then I haven t found that it can actually do anything that the Notebook in TJ can t. It has the same left panel
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                    Page 4 isn't as overwhelming as the other 3 but then I haven't found
                    that it can actually do anything that the Notebook in TJ can't. It has
                    the same left panel outliner linked to the main writing page as
                    Notebook does. So the outline is a framework linked to expanded entries.

                    This discussion has encouraged me to be clearer about what I want in a
                    software program as a writer. Right now I see three levels - an
                    outliner, a place to store random notes, and the main writing page.
                    The Notebook functions as an outliner and if I paid more attention to
                    the first line of my random notes and set up a separate Notebook for
                    them wherein each entry on the tree was tagged to the first line of
                    the notes they would probably be adequately searchable.

                    Maybe this is all an exercise in appreciating TJ.




                    --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, Lily <lilywhite@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I've tried all of those except PowerWriter, and I have to say, I
                    prefer the
                    > flexibility of TJ. The others wanted me to plot and outline my
                    novel their
                    > way, and I never could manage it.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 6/4/08, arail_10007 <amanuele@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for
                    > > writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for
                    > > trials (Page 4, PowerWriter, StoryView and Liquid Story Binder) and I
                    > > thought I'd share my initial impressions.
                    > >
                    > > My first and most striking observation - there's nothing out there
                    > > like The Journal. As a rule the programs I'm trying out are ugly (two
                    > > of them look like accounting software from the late 80s and one of the
                    > > others looks like a manga catalogue gone mad) and they're all
                    > > overkill. I'm not sure plotting a novel like a military campaign will
                    > > do anything other than con you into believing you're in control. And
                    > > spending a month just learning a program doesn't seem like a wise use
                    > > of a writers time.
                    > >
                    > > As I'm going through the trial period I'm asking myself what features
                    > > a program for writers that was similar to The Journal would have. The
                    > > first answer is an outliner. All of these programs have outliners and
                    > > I have to admit, as a writer, it's a useful feature. It does make me
                    > > wonder if a outliner could somehow be rigged up within The Journal.
                    > >
                    > > More later -
                    > >
                    > > --- In
                    thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com<thejournal-users%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > quickeningspirit
                    > > <quickeningspirit@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I wouldn't replace The Journal either. It is the best writing
                    > > programme I've
                    > > > ever used. Although Scrivener is really attractive I doubt it
                    would suit
                    > > > general needs - ie. it looks good for what it's designed to do. I
                    > > really do
                    > > > love The Journal but I am aware that, as with all software, having
                    > > used it
                    > > > for a few years I've settled into a way of working which may be
                    > > > unnecessarily limiting. My question was probing for tips on other
                    > > ways of
                    > > > working. I can do a lot of things with The Journal but keeping a
                    > > focus and
                    > > > organised method for writing a novel is not something I've gotten to
                    > > grips
                    > > > with. The Journal excels at what it does. I particularly like your
                    > > take on
                    > > > The Journal being suited for writing Commentary. I understand
                    that. In a
                    > > > sense it's how I use it mostly and it is what it is best at. Thanks
                    > > for your
                    > > > response.
                    > > <
                    > >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejournal-users/message/6123;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbGFncDRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjQ4NjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MjA4Njg1BG1zZ0lkAzYxMjMEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjM5MTE4MQ--
                    > > >
                    > > > >>Posted
                    > > > by: "arail_10007" amanuele@
                    > > >
                    > > <amanuele@
                    > >
                    ...?Subject=+Re%3A%20The%20journal%20on%20Macs%20%2B%20Novel%20writing>
                    > > > arail_10007
                    > > > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/arail_10007> >> >> Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:12
                    > > am (PDT)
                    > > > A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel
                    in The
                    > > > Journal -
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities
                    or the
                    > > > hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
                    > > > that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I
                    sorely wish
                    > > > it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
                    > > > available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use
                    them
                    > > > side by side.
                    > > >
                    > > > For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
                    > > > The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track
                    of my
                    > > > assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that
                    would
                    > > > pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
                    > > > as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
                    > > > out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
                    > > > contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would
                    become
                    > > > just another component of my work, not something apart from it.
                    And I
                    > > > don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal
                    gives me
                    > > > at the end of the day.
                    > > >
                    > > > I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to
                    comment
                    > > > on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record
                    what
                    > > > days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
                    > > > whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
                    > > > character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
                    > > > couldn't do in the novel itself.
                    > > >
                    > > > As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
                    > > > many writers happily banging away at their novels with The
                    Journal and
                    > > > hopefully they will chime in with advice.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > ___________________________________________________
                    > Westley: Hear this now: I will always come for you.
                    > Buttercup: But how can you be sure?
                    > Westley: This is true love - you think this happens every day?
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • stephenzeoli
                    ... I ... I ve tried Liquid Story Binder and Page 4. I have to admire the ambition of Jesse Wall, LSB s developer. He has put a lot of effort and thought into
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                      --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, "arail_10007" <amanuele@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for
                      > writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for
                      > trials (Page 4, PowerWriter, StoryView and Liquid Story Binder) and
                      I
                      > thought I'd share my initial impressions.


                      I've tried Liquid Story Binder and Page 4. I have to admire the
                      ambition of Jesse Wall, LSB's developer. He has put a lot of effort
                      and thought into his program, but I find it way too cluttered for
                      clear-headed writing. Page 4 is a simpler program. One thing it does
                      that I don't think TJ does is take snapshots of your writing, so you
                      can experiment with ideas and easily go back to the original draft if
                      you don't like where you've wandered off to. For the most part, The
                      Journal is a more powerful writing tool, in my opinion.

                      A couple of other programs worth noting are Whizfolders and
                      SuperNoteCard. Despite its silly name, Whizfolders is very powerful.
                      It's outlining is a bit more sophisticated than The Journal, and it
                      has many search and linking functions. A new keyword facility is also
                      useful.

                      SuperNoteCard is good for those who like writing novels using index
                      cards. It has features for tracking characters and plot elements.
                      It's a fairly impressive little program.

                      This is not my attempt to convince people not to write novels using
                      the Journal. TJ is a great program. But since the topic came up, I
                      thought I'd share a few more options. Check out the websites for
                      these two applications here:

                      www.whizfolders.com
                      www.mindola.com

                      Steve Zeoli
                      Hubbardton, Vermont
                    • davidmilligan54
                      Sorry, this is a long post, but I am Canadian and by law we have to start all communications with sorry . This, David M. s previous post on Novel Writing
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                        Sorry, this is a long post, but I am Canadian and by law we have to
                        start all communications with "sorry".

                        This, David M.'s previous post on Novel Writing structure, is the
                        closest solution I've seen that would work for me, probably in ANY
                        Windows program. And The Journal is the best program I've seen for
                        everyday writing (on a computer). I will try it. It may solve my
                        months-long search for an "outliner" for Windows. There is no end of
                        good outliner programs for the Mac, but none of the Windows programs
                        satisfied my writing methods. Of course, the whole outlining method
                        for writing is another debate. Most of my work starts with bits of
                        paper that I accumulate from various notebooks, post-it notes, stuff
                        I've tried to jot down while driving (dangerous!) etc. All of it -
                        notions, recollections, observations, inspirations - gets put into
                        The Journal by date. If something seems worth following up on or
                        developing or inserting into any project, I copy and paste it into
                        Wordpad and save it as an .rtf file in a folder somewhere in My
                        Documents. That's how I've been doing it so far. It's a way, but it
                        has still meant switching back and forth between Windows Explorer
                        and The Journal.

                        For those considering Scrivener, here is my experience:

                        The result, first, for those who want to skip the details: I don't
                        use it anymore.
                        The details:
                        I actually bought a Mac just to use Scrivener ($2700 CDN for the Mac
                        to use a $39 US program). Scrivener is a great app, a labour of love
                        by one guy, rather like our Mr. Michael, and nothing quite comes
                        close to it in the Windows world. I've tried most of the Win
                        programs mentioned in this forum (Whizfolders got the most use,
                        but's not much fun to work with) and I keep going back to The
                        Journal.

                        What is very appealing about Scrivener is that it *is* something of
                        an outliner. It has the ability to instantly display all your
                        Research bits on the same screen while you're typing away in another
                        window. It also has a full-screen option. You can keep the Corkboard
                        stuff, I spent 25 years editing scripts, directing and producing
                        radio dramas, comedy, and other spoken-word programs for the CBC and
                        have seen enough walls plastered with index cards to induce seizures.
                        For better or worse, I went from the typewriter to the PC and am
                        very familiar with Windows, and not so much with Macs. I found using
                        Scrivener as much about learning the Mac as I did about writing.
                        I had 30 odd years of journaling stuff to input into something and I
                        had used The Journal. Because I pull from those entries for
                        my "research" items, I want to be able to search and see dates for
                        that material. When using Scriverner, I had to Export all my Journal
                        entries, transfer them to the Mac, and either create a hierarchical
                        file system according to date, or get some Mac program and import
                        the entries into it. I used Journaler, but still had to open my
                        entries one by one in TextEdit (!) and copy and paste them into it.
                        (Incidentally, one great thing about The Journal is that you can
                        drag and drop files from Windows Explorer straight into the body of
                        an entry. You can't do that with Journaler. Or is the Mac not quie
                        as "intuitive" as Apple would have you believe?)
                        Again, the question occured to me: how much new software and OSes do
                        I want to learn, when I already knew one very well? And do I really
                        want to worry about keeping multiple computers on multiple platforms
                        in synch?
                        So, the long and the short of it is that I am going to try Mr.
                        Michael's approach. I like to keep it simple, too. Not like this
                        message.:)

                        - David Milligan, Oakville, ON
                        http://home.cogeco.ca/~davemilligan/

                        --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, David Michael <davidrm@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Crossover Mac is a slightly spiffier version of Wine, the Windows
                        > emulator for Linux. The Journal works fine under both Wine and
                        Crossover
                        > Mac.
                        >
                        > I've written 2 nonfiction books about video games in The Journal
                        > (published in 2003 and 2005). Plus, I have a growing number of
                        > unpublished novels written in The Journal (I'm currently sending
                        out
                        > agent queries; someone wanna loan me *their* agent???).
                        >
                        > Here's how I've organized my booklength projects:
                        >
                        > First, I use a loose-leaf/Notebook category.
                        >
                        > At the top level, I have entries like this:
                        >
                        > * Outline
                        > * Characters
                        > * Research Notes
                        > * Manuscript
                        > * Feedback
                        > * Thoughts
                        >
                        > I use a paragraph-style outline format, so that is usually a
                        single
                        > entry. Before I make significant changes, though, I'll create a
                        > sub-entry to hold the previous draft. As a safety net and a record
                        of
                        > how the project has evolved.
                        >
                        > For major characters, I might create a separate sub-entry under
                        > "Characters". It depends on how much information I write down
                        about
                        > them. I usually start with a single entry, and then break it out
                        into
                        > sub-entries when the information starts to pile up.
                        >
                        > Research Notes gets sub-entries for links and transcripts and
                        blatant
                        > scraping of information, including scans, that are relevant. Maps,
                        > demographic information, etc.
                        >
                        > Under Manuscript, I create a sub-entry called "Draft 1", and then
                        create
                        > sub-entries under that, one for each chapter.
                        >
                        > Feedback is just that: feedback from people who have read parts of
                        the
                        > work. I make a copy of their emails or scribble quick notes about
                        what
                        > they tell me. For later reference.
                        >
                        > Under Thoughts I create a date entry. That's where I talk to
                        myself
                        > about what I've written, am writing, or suddenly consider changing.
                        >
                        > It may seem like a lot of words, but it's pretty straightforward.
                        I try
                        > to avoid anything too complicated. I prefer simple. =)
                        >
                        > -David
                        >
                        > quickeningspirit wrote:
                        > > As it happens I'm also considering migration to a Mac. For those
                        that do not
                        > > know there are a couple of options.
                        > >
                        > > 1. Macs ship with something called Bootcamp. You can install XP
                        from there
                        > > and effectively run both systems. Con is that you have to reboot
                        from one
                        > > environment to the other.
                        > >
                        > > 2. Cheap software products like Parallels allow the user to
                        create a virtual
                        > > machine. You install XP on that and have your windows
                        environment open
                        > > within OSX just like any other programme, running all your
                        favourite
                        > > windows programmes.
                        > >
                        > > There is also this: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxmac/
                        which is
                        > > something that could be utilised in future but from what I can
                        gather David
                        > > would have to work to make The Journal compatible.
                        > >
                        > > Now, the reason I was writing (before reading those last two
                        posts) is this:
                        > > I'm very interested to know how people use The Journal for
                        > > writing/organising/planning novel writing or at least writing
                        lengthy works.
                        > > It's something I've really been unable to get to grips with in
                        The Journal,
                        > > everything mounts up into a disorganised unsearchable mass of
                        fragments.
                        > >
                        > > If I do get a Mac I'll be sorely tempted by this:
                        > > http://literatureandlatte.com/scrivener.html
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • David Michael
                        I m curious about outliners. Tell me what you re looking for, and I ll make notes. =) -David
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                          I'm curious about outliners. Tell me what you're looking for, and I'll
                          make notes. =)

                          -David

                          arail_10007 wrote:
                          > After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for
                          > writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for
                          > trials (Page 4, PowerWriter, StoryView and Liquid Story Binder) and I
                          > thought I'd share my initial impressions.
                          >
                          > My first and most striking observation - there's nothing out there
                          > like The Journal. As a rule the programs I'm trying out are ugly (two
                          > of them look like accounting software from the late 80s and one of the
                          > others looks like a manga catalogue gone mad) and they're all
                          > overkill. I'm not sure plotting a novel like a military campaign will
                          > do anything other than con you into believing you're in control. And
                          > spending a month just learning a program doesn't seem like a wise use
                          > of a writers time.
                          >
                          > As I'm going through the trial period I'm asking myself what features
                          > a program for writers that was similar to The Journal would have. The
                          > first answer is an outliner. All of these programs have outliners and
                          > I have to admit, as a writer, it's a useful feature. It does make me
                          > wonder if a outliner could somehow be rigged up within The Journal.
                          >
                          > More later -
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, quickeningspirit
                          > <quickeningspirit@...> wrote:
                          >> I wouldn't replace The Journal either. It is the best writing
                          > programme I've
                          >> ever used. Although Scrivener is really attractive I doubt it would suit
                          >> general needs - ie. it looks good for what it's designed to do. I
                          > really do
                          >> love The Journal but I am aware that, as with all software, having
                          > used it
                          >> for a few years I've settled into a way of working which may be
                          >> unnecessarily limiting. My question was probing for tips on other
                          > ways of
                          >> working. I can do a lot of things with The Journal but keeping a
                          > focus and
                          >> organised method for writing a novel is not something I've gotten to
                          > grips
                          >> with. The Journal excels at what it does. I particularly like your
                          > take on
                          >> The Journal being suited for writing Commentary. I understand that. In a
                          >> sense it's how I use it mostly and it is what it is best at. Thanks
                          > for your
                          >> response.
                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thejournal-users/message/6123;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbGFncDRsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjQ4NjQEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MjA4Njg1BG1zZ0lkAzYxMjMEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjM5MTE4MQ-->
                          >>>> Posted
                          >> by: "arail_10007" amanuele@...
                          >>
                          > <amanuele@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20The%20journal%20on%20Macs%20%2B%20Novel%20writing>
                          >> arail_10007
                          >> <http://profiles.yahoo.com/arail_10007> >> >> Sun Jun 1, 2008 11:12
                          > am (PDT)
                          >> A very personal reflection on your issues about writing a novel in The
                          >> Journal -
                          >>
                          >> I don't think The Journal has the kind of outliner capabilities or the
                          >> hierarchical structuring tools that Scrivener does but I'm not sure
                          >> that's the point. I used Scrivener on a friend's Mac and I sorely wish
                          >> it were available for PC, it's a great program. But if it were
                          >> available I wouldn't replace The Journal with Scrivener, I'd use them
                          >> side by side.
                          >>
                          >> For me, The Journal is about Commentary, not Work. I wouldn't use
                          >> The Journal to generate a contract for a client or to keep track of my
                          >> assistant's hours or to write a business letter. I believe that would
                          >> pollute the personal space I need The Journal for. I use The Journal
                          >> as a place to reflect on my day and therefore I need to keep my work
                          >> out of The Journal. I imagine I could use The Journal to generate a
                          >> contract or write a business letter but then The Journal would become
                          >> just another component of my work, not something apart from it. And I
                          >> don't want that to happen. I need the refuge that The Journal gives me
                          >> at the end of the day.
                          >>
                          >> I do the same with the novel I'm writing. I use The Journal to comment
                          >> on writing the novel but not to write the novel itself. I record what
                          >> days I wrote and what days I didn't, whether I felt confident or
                          >> whether I felt inadequate to the task. If I have doubts about a
                          >> character, I use The Journal to express those thoughts - something I
                          >> couldn't do in the novel itself.
                          >>
                          >> As I said above, this a purely personal response. I'm sure there are
                          >> many writers happily banging away at their novels with The Journal and
                          >> hopefully they will chime in with advice.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • stephenzeoli
                          ... I ll ... I think you ll get several different (possibly conflicting) responses to this question, David, but I ll throw my two cents in. To me, there is a
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                            --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, David Michael <davidrm@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm curious about outliners. Tell me what you're looking for, and
                            I'll
                            > make notes. =)


                            I think you'll get several different (possibly conflicting) responses
                            to this question, David, but I'll throw my two cents in.

                            To me, there is a difference between a two-pane hierarchical
                            organizer and a genuine outliner, though they can appear similar. An
                            outliner lets you capture thoughts quickly on the fly and then easily
                            reshuffle them later for further expansion and organization. An
                            outliner provides various visual cues to help you get a sense
                            of "where you are" in the outline (such as numbering and/a variety of
                            bullets. An outliner provides for specialized functions such as
                            hoisting (in which you take a sub-heading and make it the main
                            heading, while the rest of the outline is hidden) to allow you to
                            concentrate on one section at a time.

                            And, ideally, an outliner would allow you to view the text or content
                            part of each item in the outline itself (some people call this inline
                            text). This function is almost unheard of in Windows... the only
                            application I am aware of that does this is Inspiration (which is a
                            single-pane outliner). The reason I think this last part is important
                            is that it gives you the ability to see your work as a whole and not
                            just as bits and pieces. But, as I mentioned, it is excedingly hard
                            to find, so it must be very difficult to implement.

                            The best outliner I've ever worked with (and I've tried zillions of
                            them) was an old DOS program called GrandView. It did all of the
                            above and more, but unfortunately was never made into a Windows
                            application.

                            There is a discussion group at www.outlinersoftware.com which
                            discusses this very subject... among many others. You may want to
                            check it out and search the archives for further insights from people
                            with more experience than me.

                            Steve Zeoli
                            Hubbardton, VT
                          • arail_10007
                            Thanks for your very helpful response Steve. I grew up near you in a small town west of Fair Haven - Whitehall, NY. I m finding this thread to be very helpful
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 5, 2008
                              Thanks for your very helpful response Steve. I grew up near you in a
                              small town west of Fair Haven - Whitehall, NY.

                              I'm finding this thread to be very helpful both as an introduction to
                              other, possibly useful, programs and as a way of further exploring TJ
                              itself.

                              I agree with you about Liquid Story Binder. It's an incredibly complex
                              program at a very reasonable price. But the complexity puts me off. I
                              prefer programs that do a few simple things well over programs that do
                              dozens of things not very well. I've often wished that software
                              programs came with a check list that you could use to eliminate
                              components, leaving you with only the elements you actually need.

                              I took your advice and downloaded SuperNotecard today. That's the
                              first program that I feel may be a useful adjunct to writing in TJ.
                              The logic of 'decks' and 'cards' is very intriguing. It seems to be
                              unique and well thought out.

                              You're right about Page 4, the 'snapshot' feature is something not
                              found in TJ but I don't think that in itself justifies my purchasing
                              it. I'm going to give Page 4 a few more days but I haven't found
                              anything other than the snapshot feature that TJ can't do.

                              --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, "stephenzeoli"
                              <stephenzeoli@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, "arail_10007" <amanuele@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > After the brief (but provocative) exchange concerning software for
                              > > writing novels I did a bit of research and downloaded 4 programs for
                              > > trials (Page 4, PowerWriter, StoryView and Liquid Story Binder) and
                              > I
                              > > thought I'd share my initial impressions.
                              >
                              >
                              > I've tried Liquid Story Binder and Page 4. I have to admire the
                              > ambition of Jesse Wall, LSB's developer. He has put a lot of effort
                              > and thought into his program, but I find it way too cluttered for
                              > clear-headed writing. Page 4 is a simpler program. One thing it does
                              > that I don't think TJ does is take snapshots of your writing, so you
                              > can experiment with ideas and easily go back to the original draft if
                              > you don't like where you've wandered off to. For the most part, The
                              > Journal is a more powerful writing tool, in my opinion.
                              >
                              > A couple of other programs worth noting are Whizfolders and
                              > SuperNoteCard. Despite its silly name, Whizfolders is very powerful.
                              > It's outlining is a bit more sophisticated than The Journal, and it
                              > has many search and linking functions. A new keyword facility is also
                              > useful.
                              >
                              > SuperNoteCard is good for those who like writing novels using index
                              > cards. It has features for tracking characters and plot elements.
                              > It's a fairly impressive little program.
                              >
                              > This is not my attempt to convince people not to write novels using
                              > the Journal. TJ is a great program. But since the topic came up, I
                              > thought I'd share a few more options. Check out the websites for
                              > these two applications here:
                              >
                              > www.whizfolders.com
                              > www.mindola.com
                              >
                              > Steve Zeoli
                              > Hubbardton, Vermont
                              >
                            • stephenzeoli
                              ... I don t want to wander too far off topic, but I know Whitehall pretty well. I love the Champlain canal locks going right through town and the Skenesborough
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 6, 2008
                                --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, "arail_10007" <amanuele@...>
                                wrote:
                                > Thanks for your very helpful response Steve. I grew up near you in a
                                > small town west of Fair Haven - Whitehall, NY.

                                I don't want to wander too far off topic, but I know Whitehall pretty
                                well. I love the Champlain canal locks going right through town and the
                                Skenesborough Museum.


                                I think you'll find SuperNoteCard very useful if you like the idea of
                                using index cards -- some people do and some don't. But, as you say, it
                                is an adjunct, not a replacement for an application like The Journal.

                                Steve Zeoli
                                Hubbardton, Vermont
                              • quickeningspirit
                                I just wanted to say thank you to those of you that took time to consider and reply to my query. It s been very useful, it clarified a few things along the way
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 9, 2008
                                  I just wanted to say thank you to those of you that took time to consider
                                  and reply to my query. It's been very useful, it clarified a few things
                                  along the way and I gathered a few ideas on how I can adapt the Journal to
                                  suit my needs. I hope it's been of value to others too. Whilst I didn't
                                  intend to drive people away from The Journal, I realise I inadvertently
                                  opened a discussion on other software available to writers. Which is
                                  probably a bit cheeky, sorry for that. Though we are all aware there are
                                  umpteen programmes out there and it is good to see how they measure up and
                                  hear how other people evaluate them. So I do consider it a valid discussion.
                                  It is to David's credit that he participates in this type of discussion.
                                  I'll just say I can't see that I'll be switching from The Journal any time
                                  soon.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Milligan
                                  Here s a link to a great site on Outliners: http://www.atpm.com/Back/atpo.shtml Most info will apply to Macs, but there is some talk about Windows (generally
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jun 17, 2008
                                    Here's a link to a great site on Outliners:

                                    http://www.atpm.com/Back/atpo.shtml

                                    Most info will apply to Macs, but there is some talk about Windows
                                    (generally the "geez, I wish this was available for Windows" kind),
                                    but if you look a bit, there are actually some Windows apps
                                    mentioned, and some cross-platform apps as well.
                                    Sometimes "outlining" gets somewhat technical and theoretical, but
                                    then again, a lot of people using outliners are doing technical
                                    writing and research stuff.
                                    On a sillier note, I read somewhere that Douglas Adams wrote in
                                    Excel! Which brings me to one other link that has provided much
                                    helpful advice on writing with longhand-to-PC methods (and an
                                    all 'round cool site by a successful writer):

                                    http://journal.neilgaiman.com/

                                    bon chance

                                    - dave

                                    http://home.cogeco.ca/~davemilligan/




                                    - In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, "stephenzeoli"
                                    <stephenzeoli@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In thejournal-users@yahoogroups.com, David Michael <davidrm@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm curious about outliners. Tell me what you're looking for,
                                    and
                                    > I'll
                                    > > make notes. =)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I think you'll get several different (possibly conflicting)
                                    responses
                                    > to this question, David, but I'll throw my two cents in.
                                    >
                                    > To me, there is a difference between a two-pane hierarchical
                                    > organizer and a genuine outliner, though they can appear similar.
                                    An
                                    > outliner lets you capture thoughts quickly on the fly and then
                                    easily
                                    > reshuffle them later for further expansion and organization. An
                                    > outliner provides various visual cues to help you get a sense
                                    > of "where you are" in the outline (such as numbering and/a variety
                                    of
                                    > bullets. An outliner provides for specialized functions such as
                                    > hoisting (in which you take a sub-heading and make it the main
                                    > heading, while the rest of the outline is hidden) to allow you to
                                    > concentrate on one section at a time.
                                    >
                                    > And, ideally, an outliner would allow you to view the text or
                                    content
                                    > part of each item in the outline itself (some people call this
                                    inline
                                    > text). This function is almost unheard of in Windows... the only
                                    > application I am aware of that does this is Inspiration (which is
                                    a
                                    > single-pane outliner). The reason I think this last part is
                                    important
                                    > is that it gives you the ability to see your work as a whole and
                                    not
                                    > just as bits and pieces. But, as I mentioned, it is excedingly
                                    hard
                                    > to find, so it must be very difficult to implement.
                                    >
                                    > The best outliner I've ever worked with (and I've tried zillions
                                    of
                                    > them) was an old DOS program called GrandView. It did all of the
                                    > above and more, but unfortunately was never made into a Windows
                                    > application.
                                    >
                                    > There is a discussion group at www.outlinersoftware.com which
                                    > discusses this very subject... among many others. You may want to
                                    > check it out and search the archives for further insights from
                                    people
                                    > with more experience than me.
                                    >
                                    > Steve Zeoli
                                    > Hubbardton, VT
                                    >
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