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  • iarwain_badr
    Like you, I sympathize with the plight of the Orcs, who were at one time Elves but were corrupted and tortured by Morgoth to turn them into what they are. But
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 1 3:39 AM
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      Like you, I sympathize with the plight of the Orcs, who were at one
      time Elves but were corrupted and tortured by Morgoth to turn them
      into what they are. But I can't agree with your views on Sauron and
      Morgoth. Sauron alienated himself from the other MAia not they from
      him. Consider Elrond's words at the Council, 'Nothing is evil in the
      beginning, not even Sauron was so'. Sauron may have started of good
      but ultimately he made his own choice to follow Morgoth. As such, I
      can't sympathize with Sauron. He probably decided to follow Morgoth
      by convicing himself that it was the only way to bring Knowledge,
      Rule and Order to Middle-Earth [Saruman tried to convince Gandalf to
      join him by speaking in the same way] But ultimately, the realization
      of his own great power, both as a Maia spirit as well as Morgoth's
      most trusted servant would have overcome any sense of good and evil.
      If you had read the Silmarillion, you would have realized that
      Tolkien's world is definitely not black and white. [although it does
      tend that way]. At one time, Morgoth was Melkor and he had power
      equal to Manwe, the leader of the Valar and he descended into the
      world with the intention of preparing it for the Elves. His fall from
      grace occured when he became obsessed with the Flame Imperishable
      [THe Secret Fire which Gandalf invoked when he faced the Balrog] with
      which Illuvatar had kindled the Valar. Melkor's search for the Flame
      and his growing determination to use the Flame to shape all things as
      he wished it - for by then, he was growing aware of the greatness of
      his power and wished to test its limits- was what resulted in his
      transformation to Morgoth. His conversion of the Elves into Orcs was
      a vain attempt to shape the Elves into something else. It is possible
      that if he had discovered the Flame Imperishable, the Orcs might have
      looked a lot better. Ultimately, it was not Morgoth's desire 'to play
      video games instead of going for singing lessons' [as you so neatly
      put it] that led to his downfall. It was when his ambition overcame
      his wisdom and he tried to obtain more power than he already had. The
      analogy you have used cannot therefore be applied. --- In
      thehighelves@yahoogroups.com, jack hope iii <jfh3@j...> wrote:
      > Not bad. I know this is sarcasm, but I have often thought what it
      would
      > be like if Tolkien had not painted such a "black and white" picture
      of
      > Middle Earth. Morgorth, Sauron and the Orcs NEVER show signs of
      being
      > anything other than deceitful, destructive and just downright bad.
      > Granted, I know that the Morgoth and Sauron both ACTED good at
      various
      > times, but this was only to deceive, and I know that the orcs are
      former
      > elves who were led astray and turned to the will of Morgoth, so to
      speak.
      >
      > However, never once have I been able to say, "oh, well if you look
      at it
      > this way, then I can see the perspective of the orcs, and am able
      to
      > sympathize with their plight," or "Sauron crafted the one ring
      because
      > he felt isolated and lonely, and never felt accepted or respected
      as an
      > equal by other Maia," or "if you squint really hard, and jump up
      and
      > down on your left leg while holding your right foot with a set of
      > barbeque tongs, then you can see Morgoth's side of things, and
      > understand why he and Sauron decided to go off and be such bad
      guys,"
      > or my favorite, "Morgoth, have you been practice your singing
      > techniques? You know the big recital is tomorrow." "But dad, I
      just
      > wanted to play video games."
      >
      > Now, I wouldn't say that this is a problem, simply because I really
      like
      > the idyllic world that Tolkien has created. LOTR, the Hobbit and
      the
      > Silmarillion are all fiction, fantasy, and ultimately escapist
      > literature, and this is what I want from it. When I reread the
      books
      > every couple of years, it's not because I want to revisit the moral
      > dilemma faced by Bilbo the THIEF, or want to brush up on my elvish;
      I
      > just want to be transported to an imaginary world that has magic,
      > amazing creatures and wonderful adventures.
      >
      >
      > However, every once and a while, it's nice to think "what if." If
      you
      > think about it a little, then it makes Middle Earth a little more
      real.
      > But, if you think too much into it, it makes it TOO real for my
      tastes,
      > and that kind of defeats the purpose. Reality already has too many
      > shades of gray. I don't want gray in my Tolkien, (though I would
      argue
      > that the destruction of the One Ring introduces "grayness" to
      Middle
      > Earth, but that's a whole different email.)
      >
      > Wow... that got long winded.
      >
      > jack
      >
      >
      >
      > Terry wrote:
      >
      > >There is a land in Middle Earth where men and orcs put aside their
      > >diffrences and live and work together under the leadership of a
      miar,
      > >what is the name of this multicultural paradise? Mordor! The cruel
      > >and wicked Easterlings and Haradrim get along well enough with
      their
      > >friends the orcs to greatly increase the power of their lord
      Sauron
      > >who seeks to bring {his form of} peace and order to Middle Earth.
      The
      > >devine {diabolical} wisdom and leadership of the lord Sauron is
      > >opposed by the ethnicly exclusive countries of Gondor and Rohan
      whose
      > >racist people do not want to live side by side with orcs as
      equals.
      > >Even worse are those mean old elf supremicist who also adhere to
      that
      > >old fashon ideology of aparthide. Thses bad old racist are a
      threat
      > >to Saurons new world order. Sauron, being a supernatural devine
      being
      > >must surley know what is best for the peoples of Middle Earth and
      has
      > >every right to invade and destroy any group of people who stand in
      > >the way of progress. Old fashoned family values like group
      loyality
      > >and respect for what belongs to others are hurtfull to orcs and
      have
      > >no place in Middle Earth. Racist elves and men discriminate
      against
      > >orcs and deny them equal rights just because they are diffrent.
      > >Canabalistic savagery as a lifestyle is just as good and equal to
      any
      > >other so those discrininate against orcs have no right to exist in
      > >seprate communities. Saurons goal is to bring integration to
      Middle
      > >Earth. Gondor, Rohan, and the elf lands would benefit from the
      > >wonderfull diversity if they had open borders with Mordor.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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