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AE&FRE Birney Cars

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  • thegreatthirdrail
    Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE Birney cars ? Evidence seems to suggest they were originally delivered in a dark Pullman green, which I beleive
    Message 1 of 7 , May 21 8:15 AM
      Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE Birney cars ?

      Evidence seems to suggest they were originally delivered in a dark
      Pullman green, which I beleive gave way failry quickly to a standard
      traction yellow. Where these cars painted to match the double truck
      lightweight cars (the 300s) ? What color was the roof painted, the
      trucks, etc ?

      Any info greatly appreciated.

      John
    • roygbenedict@juno.com
      If the evidence is that they photographed dark on the usual camera film of the time, it has fooled later-day observers many times already. Hopkins Peffers says
      Message 2 of 7 , May 21 11:15 AM
        If the evidence is that they photographed dark on the usual camera film of the time, it has
        fooled later-day observers many times already. Hopkins Peffers says (vol. 2, page 14)
        "Originally the cars were all orange. Later, cream trim was added" and he was there, so he
        should know.

        On page 33 he describes the high school colors used as trim on four of the cars.

        You can see on the dust jacket how Gil Reid represented the car colors, perhaps on Hop's
        instructions.

        ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
        PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
        Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
        .
        .

        Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE Birney cars ?

        Evidence seems to suggest they were originally delivered in a dark
        Pullman green, which I beleive gave way failry quickly to a standard
        traction yellow. Where these cars painted to match the double truck
        lightweight cars (the 300s) ? What color was the roof painted, the
        trucks, etc ?

        Any info greatly appreciated.

        John
      • Joseph Hazinski
        Gil Reid used some color slides of the AE&FR lightweight interurban that I had taken at IRM as a guide to the colors of the Birney car. The painting was
        Message 3 of 7 , May 21 6:20 PM
          Gil Reid used some color slides of the AE&FR lightweight interurban that I
          had taken at IRM as a guide to the colors of the Birney car. The painting
          was originally done as a Christmas card for Chris Berger who was working for
          the CNW at the time and well before the Peffers books were published. Chris
          has or had the bell from the steam locomotive running up above. While I can
          not be 100% sure that the colors are correct I believe that in the absence
          of actual paint samples these colors are about as close as we can get in
          2007. Perhaps someone in the Electric Car Department at IRM can tell us
          what paint they used and how they arrived at the hues they used. The hand
          colored photo in the first version of CERA Bulletin 105 was done by Doug
          Traxler, a Milwaukee bus driver and former Speedrail operator who has since
          passed away.

          Joe Hazinski


          >From: "roygbenedict@..." <roygbenedict@...>
          >Reply-To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          >To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] AE&FRE Birney Cars
          >Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:15:12 GMT
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          >If the evidence is that they photographed dark on the usual camera film of
          >the time, it has
          >fooled later-day observers many times already. Hopkins Peffers says (vol.
          >2, page 14)
          >"Originally the cars were all orange. Later, cream trim was added" and he
          >was there, so he
          >should know.
          >
          >On page 33 he describes the high school colors used as trim on four of the
          >cars.
          >
          >You can see on the dust jacket how Gil Reid represented the car colors,
          >perhaps on Hop's
          >instructions.
          >
          >ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
          >PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
          >Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
          >.
          >.
          >
          >Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE Birney cars ?
          >
          >Evidence seems to suggest they were originally delivered in a dark
          >Pullman green, which I beleive gave way failry quickly to a standard
          >traction yellow. Where these cars painted to match the double truck
          >lightweight cars (the 300s) ? What color was the roof painted, the
          >trucks, etc ?
          >
          >Any info greatly appreciated.
          >
          >John
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Scott Greig
          All I can contribute, with regard to the painting of Fox River 306, is that Charlie Ed Arnold was involved with the lettering, if not the overall painting,
          Message 4 of 7 , May 21 6:43 PM
            All I can contribute, with regard to the painting of
            Fox River 306, is that Charlie "Ed" Arnold was
            involved with the lettering, if not the overall
            painting, and he's been dead for 14 years.

            --- Joseph Hazinski <jrhtrolley@...> wrote:

            > Gil Reid used some color slides of the AE&FR
            > lightweight interurban that I
            > had taken at IRM as a guide to the colors of the
            > Birney car. The painting
            > was originally done as a Christmas card for Chris
            > Berger who was working for
            > the CNW at the time and well before the Peffers
            > books were published. Chris
            > has or had the bell from the steam locomotive
            > running up above. While I can
            > not be 100% sure that the colors are correct I
            > believe that in the absence
            > of actual paint samples these colors are about as
            > close as we can get in
            > 2007. Perhaps someone in the Electric Car
            > Department at IRM can tell us
            > what paint they used and how they arrived at the
            > hues they used. The hand
            > colored photo in the first version of CERA Bulletin
            > 105 was done by Doug
            > Traxler, a Milwaukee bus driver and former Speedrail
            > operator who has since
            > passed away.
            >
            > Joe Hazinski
            >
            >
            > >From: "roygbenedict@..."
            > <roygbenedict@...>
            > >Reply-To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] AE&FRE Birney Cars
            > >Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:15:12 GMT
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            > (UTC)
            > >FILETIME=[B1463990:01C79BD4]
            > >
            > >If the evidence is that they photographed dark on
            > the usual camera film of
            > >the time, it has
            > >fooled later-day observers many times already.
            > Hopkins Peffers says (vol.
            > >2, page 14)
            > >"Originally the cars were all orange. Later, cream
            > trim was added" and he
            > >was there, so he
            > >should know.
            > >
            > >On page 33 he describes the high school colors used
            > as trim on four of the
            > >cars.
            > >
            > >You can see on the dust jacket how Gil Reid
            > represented the car colors,
            > >perhaps on Hop's
            > >instructions.
            > >
            > >ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
            > >PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 •
            > R-Benedict-11@...
            > >Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
            > >.
            > >.
            > >
            > >Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE
            > Birney cars ?
            > >
            > >Evidence seems to suggest they were originally
            > delivered in a dark
            > >Pullman green, which I beleive gave way failry
            > quickly to a standard
            > >traction yellow. Where these cars painted to match
            > the double truck
            > >lightweight cars (the 300s) ? What color was the
            > roof painted, the
            > >trucks, etc ?
            > >
            > >Any info greatly appreciated.
            > >
            > >John
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            > (Yahoo! ID required)
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          • roygbenedict@juno.com
            If you say so; I didn t have the pleasure of knowing Doug Traxler. But my recollection of B -105 is different, that the colorization was done by the platemaker
            Message 5 of 7 , May 22 10:59 AM
              If you say so; I didn't have the pleasure of knowing Doug Traxler. But my recollection of B
              -105 is different, that the colorization was done by the platemaker at Wm. L. Erickson &
              Co., CERA's printer, based on verbal description by George Krambles who had seen the cars
              in service toward the end of their career on the AE&FRE. The craftsman, whose name I don't
              recall right now, had been a postcard colorist some decades earlier. My role with B-105 was
              to prepare the maps and some additions to the text.

              ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
              PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
              Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
              .
              .

              -- "Joseph Hazinski" <jrhtrolley@...> wrote:

              . . . The hand colored photo [of the double-truck AE&FRE lightweight car]
              in the first version of CERA Bulletin 105 was done by Doug
              Traxler, a Milwaukee bus driver and former Speedrail operator who has since
              passed away.

              Joe Hazinski


              >From: "roygbenedict@..." <roygbenedict@...>
              >Reply-To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
              >To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] AE&FRE Birney Cars
              >Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:15:12 GMT
              >
              >If the evidence is that they photographed dark on the usual camera film of
              >the time, it has
              >fooled later-day observers many times already. Hopkins Peffers says (vol.
              >2, page 14)
              >"Originally the cars were all orange. Later, cream trim was added" and he
              >was there, so he
              >should know.
              >
              >On page 33 he describes the high school colors used as trim on four of the
              >cars.
              >
              >You can see on the dust jacket how Gil Reid represented the car colors,
              >perhaps on Hop's
              >instructions.
              >
              >ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
              >PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
              >Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
              >.
              >.
              >
              >Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE Birney cars ?
              >
              >Evidence seems to suggest they were originally delivered in a dark
              >Pullman green, which I beleive gave way failry quickly to a standard
              >traction yellow. Where these cars painted to match the double truck
              >lightweight cars (the 300s) ? What color was the roof painted, the
              >trucks, etc ?
              >
              >Any info greatly appreciated.
              >
              >John
            • Joseph Hazinski
              You most likely are correct as I am basing this on the fact that Doug has been credited for other colorations in other CERA bulletins. I do not have a copy of
              Message 6 of 7 , May 22 7:36 PM
                You most likely are correct as I am basing this on the fact that Doug has
                been credited for other colorations in other CERA bulletins. I do not have
                a copy of the first 105 printing so there is no way for me to check. I did
                see some of his handy work in his home and my recollections are that most of
                what I had saw were not published. The only one that sticks out in my mind
                was a stylized colorization of a TM 500 city car to the point of it not
                being a TM car! It looked like a 500 that was sold to West Towns or Des
                Moines! (For the record no TM 500's were sold to any other properties.) I
                think he said he did that one for fun of it.

                Joe Hazinski

                >From: "roygbenedict@..." <roygbenedict@...>
                >Reply-To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                >To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] AE&FRE Birney Cars
                >Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:59:53 GMT
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                >
                >If you say so; I didn't have the pleasure of knowing Doug Traxler. But my
                >recollection of B
                >-105 is different, that the colorization was done by the platemaker at Wm.
                >L. Erickson &
                >Co., CERA's printer, based on verbal description by George Krambles who had
                >seen the cars
                >in service toward the end of their career on the AE&FRE. The craftsman,
                >whose name I don't
                >recall right now, had been a postcard colorist some decades earlier. My
                >role with B-105 was
                >to prepare the maps and some additions to the text.
                >
                >ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
                >PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
                >Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
                >.
                >.
                >
                >-- "Joseph Hazinski" <jrhtrolley@...> wrote:
                >
                >. . . The hand colored photo [of the double-truck AE&FRE lightweight car]
                >in the first version of CERA Bulletin 105 was done by Doug
                >Traxler, a Milwaukee bus driver and former Speedrail operator who has since
                >passed away.
                >
                >Joe Hazinski
                >
                >
                > >From: "roygbenedict@..." <roygbenedict@...>
                > >Reply-To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] AE&FRE Birney Cars
                > >Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 18:15:12 GMT
                > >
                > >If the evidence is that they photographed dark on the usual camera film
                >of
                > >the time, it has
                > >fooled later-day observers many times already. Hopkins Peffers says (vol.
                > >2, page 14)
                > >"Originally the cars were all orange. Later, cream trim was added" and he
                > >was there, so he
                > >should know.
                > >
                > >On page 33 he describes the high school colors used as trim on four of
                >the
                > >cars.
                > >
                > >You can see on the dust jacket how Gil Reid represented the car colors,
                > >perhaps on Hop's
                > >instructions.
                > >
                > >ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
                > >PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
                > >Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
                > >.
                > >.
                > >
                > >Does anyone know the color scheme of the AE&FRE Birney cars ?
                > >
                > >Evidence seems to suggest they were originally delivered in a dark
                > >Pullman green, which I beleive gave way failry quickly to a standard
                > >traction yellow. Where these cars painted to match the double truck
                > >lightweight cars (the 300s) ? What color was the roof painted, the
                > >trucks, etc ?
                > >
                > >Any info greatly appreciated.
                > >
                > >John
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • thegreatthirdrail
                To all Thank you for your input on paint schemes of the AE&FRE Birneys. For those wondering my interest, I ve undertaken building a model of one of these cars.
                Message 7 of 7 , May 29 3:17 PM
                  To all
                  Thank you for your input on paint schemes of the AE&FRE Birneys.

                  For those wondering my interest, I've undertaken building a model of
                  one of these cars. This will not be just any model, the car is being
                  built in 1:6 scale, or 2 inches = 1 foot. The 28 foot car is just
                  under
                  5 feet long, about 15 inches wide.

                  Those of us in the group over 30 years of age can use this
                  perspective, remember your old GI Joe (or for the ladies, your
                  Barbie) that was 12 inches tall ? It's built to that size.

                  I currently have one side mostly finished, and one end mocked up.
                  That's as far as I got until the local hobby shop ran out of
                  materials, this thing uses up a lot of material ! I'll post photos as
                  it progresses.

                  In the meantime, I was able to purchase a lot of 3 small AE&FRE
                  snapshots of the early 1934 timeframe off of ebay a couple weeks back.
                  They don't scan very well unfortunately, but I did what I could with
                  them, they're in the photo section in the AE&FRE folder. One which is
                  pretty interesting is the picture of lightweight car #301, you can't
                  make it out too well in the scan, but you can clearly see in the
                  original photo that the car is signed for "Circus"

                  JC
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