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Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

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  • Larry M
    The railroad had steel cars in the 400 series including the 450 series which were ordered in 1941 but delayed due to the war and were delivered in 1945 marking
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 30, 2009
      The railroad had steel cars in the 400 series including the 450 series which were ordered in 1941 but delayed due to the war and were delivered in 1945 marking the last traditional interurban car in the United States.  Obviously more steel cars would be needed if there was going to be the same level of service as prior to the 1953 discontinuance of service to the loop.  You are correct that wooden cars would not be permitted as was the practice in Chicago as well as other properties that had subways at that time.
       
      The other question is if this were to happen where would the cars terminate.  The 1970 City of Chicago plan to tear the loop down for a subway system does have a connecting track between Lake and Randolph (which would have been the western leg of the proposed West-South Line that would have run in the Ryan as it did subsequently) but with this connection might it have been possible to make use of an expanded Harlem yard or even have a system comparable to the NSL at 12th using the then center track east of Pulaski?  I do hope to have the plans copied and put on one of the Chicago websites with their original size.  There are 18 detailed pages of this stillborn project.
       
      Larry

      --- On Wed, 9/30/09, c.burnstein@... <c.burnstein@...> wrote:

      From: c.burnstein@... <c.burnstein@...>
      Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
      To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 6:56 PM

       
      I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting and enlightening with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date. I'd like to add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown Chicago thru a subway, only the steel cars could have used it because of a city ordnance against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire hazard.  
      Cliff B.
         
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
      Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

       
      The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
      In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.
      Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.
      The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 
      The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
      The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
      In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
      Ed
       --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" <olanderson@. ..> wrote:
      >
      > Once again,
      > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
      > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
      > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
      > O.
      >

    • chicagoutopia
      The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were built is to look at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
        The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were built is to look
        at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street Subway and
        the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.

        Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning". Many old
        photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been tossed into
        the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many old items
        are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original proposals for
        the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt
        Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?

        Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the proposals for the
        Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route?
        This has to be material that you can actually put your hands on and not
        something you think you may have seen or were told about second hand.

        Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east of the
        UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios of how they
        could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of the
        Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.

        I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly stopped running
        and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3 blocks from
        where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to run. Perhaps this is
        the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.

        Ed


        --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, <c.burnstein@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting and enlightening
        with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date. I'd like to
        add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown Chicago thru a subway,
        only the steel cars could have used it because of a city ordnance
        against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire hazard.
        > Cliff B.
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: chicagoutopia
        > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
        > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E
        changing tunes
        >
        >
        >
        > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by
        the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication
        states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the new West Side
        Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business
        District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
        >
        > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit
        projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street
        Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L"
        south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway. Once
        connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L"
        would proceed east to the Central Business District.
        >
        > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments
        it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the
        Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two of the
        subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the
        Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
        Congress-Dearborn Subway.
        >
        > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the
        east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch
        the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel
        entrances.
        >
        > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress
        Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New Horizons booklet
        does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on
        its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an
        agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The CA&E also would have
        to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
        >
        > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New
        Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid
        transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District.
        There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
        >
        > In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light
        rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District,
        upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing
        vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
        >
        > Ed
        >
        >
        > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "gauge18rr" olanderson@
        wrote:
        > >
        > > Once again,
        > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and
        Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a
        route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate
        tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to
        Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration
        of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were
        placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the
        CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that
        stop.
        > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not
        the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public
        library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an
        edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning
        process.
        > > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not
        been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
        > > O.
        > >
        >
      • Scott Greig
        Between Engineering s move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
          Between Engineering's move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years ago, a LOT of stuff was pitched.

          Lord knows I was doing a lot of dumpster-diving in the halls at the Mart.....

          --- On Thu, 10/1/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:

          > From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
          > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
          > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:50 AM
          >
          > The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were
          > built is to look
          > at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street
          > Subway and
          > the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.
          >
          > Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning".
          > Many old
          > photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been
          > tossed into
          > the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many
          > old items
          > are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original
          > proposals for
          > the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway
          > Rapid Transt
          > Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?
          >
          > Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the
          > proposals  for the
          > Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid
          > Transt Route?
          > This has to be material that you can actually put your
          > hands on and not
          > something you think you may have seen or were told about
          > second hand.
          >
          > Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east
          > of the
          > UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios
          > of how they
          > could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of
          > the
          > Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.
          >
          > I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly
          > stopped running
          > and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3
          > blocks from
          > where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to
          > run. Perhaps this is
          > the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.
          >
          > Ed
          >
          >
          > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
          > <c.burnstein@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting
          > and enlightening
          > with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date.
          > I'd like to
          > add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown
          > Chicago thru a subway,
          > only the steel cars could have used it because of a city
          > ordnance
          > against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire
          > hazard.
          > > Cliff B.
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: chicagoutopia
          > > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
          > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the
          > Congress and the CA&E
          > changing tunes
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan
          > Area released by
          > the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The
          > publication
          > states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the
          > new West Side
          > Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central
          > Business
          > District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
          > >
          > > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20
          > other transit
          > projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the
          > "Lake Street
          > Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the
          > Lake St. "L"
          > south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress
          > Expressway. Once
          > connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the
          > Lake St. "L"
          > would proceed east to the Central Business District.
          > >
          > > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any
          > specific comments
          > it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the
          > Expressway to use the
          > Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two
          > of the
          > subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be
          > used for the
          > Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
          > Congress-Dearborn Subway.
          > >
          > > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted
          > stations and the
          > east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set
          > aside to switch
          > the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway
          > tunnel
          > entrances.
          > >
          > > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect
          > with the Congress
          > Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New
          > Horizons booklet
          > does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not
          > want the CA&E on
          > its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not
          > enter into an
          > agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The
          > CA&E also would have
          > to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
          > >
          > > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up
          > in the New
          > Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median
          > strip rapid
          > transit in the South Expressway south of the Central
          > Business District.
          > There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway
          > mentioned.
          > >
          > > In more recent times, over the years there has been
          > talk about a light
          > rail system to connect Union Station with the Central
          > Business District,
          > upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use
          > existing
          > vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
          > >
          > > Ed
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
          > "gauge18rr" olanderson@
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Once again,
          > > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of
          > Subways and
          > Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through,
          > which showed a
          > route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a
          > separate
          > tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and
          > went north to
          > Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the
          > final iteration
          > of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal.
          > Storage tracks were
          > placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but
          > generally the
          > CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of
          > the CTA for that
          > stop.
          > > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am
          > sorry that is not
          > the case. When I google about it, I find the City of
          > Chicago public
          > library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they
          > were an
          > edition which included all the changes that occurred during
          > the planning
          > process.
          > > > This is an important part of the story of the
          > CA&E which has not
          > been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
          > > > O.
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >     mailto:thegreatthirdrail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
        • gauge18rr
          The copy I found was at CATS while I worked there. When I went to find it again to photocopy pages, it was missing, perhaps sitting on some official s
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
            The copy I found was at CATS while I worked there. When I went to find it again to photocopy pages, it was missing, perhaps sitting on some official's bookshelf. I found out it originally had come from a IL DOT office when it was located in the loop, and was indeed acquired as they were tossing stuff out (1980s?). There are other copies around.
            See here:
            http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/20767862

            I can't find the link now but I believe there is a copy also in the Harold Washington Library. The original was held together with screw-mounts and had pages which were updated at different dates. The most recent being around 1947 or 49 if I recall correctly.

            There were other interesting diagrams in the plan, such as all the express tracks for the CA&E, an L terminal inside of the junction of the Kennedy and Edens expressways where a power plant has been located for many years, an elevated busway inside the median of the Stevenson Expressway, and lower Congress Drive which extended from Franklin St to Buckingham fountain. The latter occurred by a double spiral (where now there is a single loop interchange, and by portals north and south of Buckingham Fountain. I think these portals may have been actually constructed when the park was developed. Lower Wacker Drive was part of the plan.

            O.

            --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Between Engineering's move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years ago, a LOT of stuff was pitched.
            >
            > Lord knows I was doing a lot of dumpster-diving in the halls at the Mart.....
            >
            > --- On Thu, 10/1/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:
            >
            > > From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
            > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
            > > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:50 AM
            > >
            > > The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were
            > > built is to look
            > > at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street
            > > Subway and
            > > the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.
            > >
            > > Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning".
            > > Many old
            > > photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been
            > > tossed into
            > > the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many
            > > old items
            > > are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original
            > > proposals for
            > > the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway
            > > Rapid Transt
            > > Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?
            > >
            > > Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the
            > > proposals  for the
            > > Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid
            > > Transt Route?
            > > This has to be material that you can actually put your
            > > hands on and not
            > > something you think you may have seen or were told about
            > > second hand.
            > >
            > > Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east
            > > of the
            > > UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios
            > > of how they
            > > could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of
            > > the
            > > Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.
            > >
            > > I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly
            > > stopped running
            > > and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3
            > > blocks from
            > > where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to
            > > run. Perhaps this is
            > > the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.
            > >
            > > Ed
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
            > > <c.burnstein@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting
            > > and enlightening
            > > with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date.
            > > I'd like to
            > > add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown
            > > Chicago thru a subway,
            > > only the steel cars could have used it because of a city
            > > ordnance
            > > against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire
            > > hazard.
            > > > Cliff B.
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: chicagoutopia
            > > > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
            > > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the
            > > Congress and the CA&E
            > > changing tunes
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan
            > > Area released by
            > > the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The
            > > publication
            > > states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the
            > > new West Side
            > > Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central
            > > Business
            > > District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
            > > >
            > > > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20
            > > other transit
            > > projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the
            > > "Lake Street
            > > Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the
            > > Lake St. "L"
            > > south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress
            > > Expressway. Once
            > > connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the
            > > Lake St. "L"
            > > would proceed east to the Central Business District.
            > > >
            > > > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any
            > > specific comments
            > > it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the
            > > Expressway to use the
            > > Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two
            > > of the
            > > subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be
            > > used for the
            > > Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
            > > Congress-Dearborn Subway.
            > > >
            > > > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted
            > > stations and the
            > > east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set
            > > aside to switch
            > > the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway
            > > tunnel
            > > entrances.
            > > >
            > > > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect
            > > with the Congress
            > > Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New
            > > Horizons booklet
            > > does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not
            > > want the CA&E on
            > > its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not
            > > enter into an
            > > agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The
            > > CA&E also would have
            > > to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
            > > >
            > > > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up
            > > in the New
            > > Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median
            > > strip rapid
            > > transit in the South Expressway south of the Central
            > > Business District.
            > > There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway
            > > mentioned.
            > > >
            > > > In more recent times, over the years there has been
            > > talk about a light
            > > rail system to connect Union Station with the Central
            > > Business District,
            > > upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use
            > > existing
            > > vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
            > > >
            > > > Ed
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
            > > "gauge18rr" olanderson@
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Once again,
            > > > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of
            > > Subways and
            > > Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through,
            > > which showed a
            > > route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a
            > > separate
            > > tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and
            > > went north to
            > > Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the
            > > final iteration
            > > of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal.
            > > Storage tracks were
            > > placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but
            > > generally the
            > > CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of
            > > the CTA for that
            > > stop.
            > > > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am
            > > sorry that is not
            > > the case. When I google about it, I find the City of
            > > Chicago public
            > > library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they
            > > were an
            > > edition which included all the changes that occurred during
            > > the planning
            > > process.
            > > > > This is an important part of the story of the
            > > CA&E which has not
            > > been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
            > > > > O.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >     mailto:thegreatthirdrail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Larry M
            I was lucky enough to be doing some help in Customer Service when my manager went on a clean up drive.  I have stuff with projects and material that are quite
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
              I was lucky enough to be doing some help in Customer Service when my manager went on a clean up drive.  I have stuff with projects and material that are quite interesting. Back then it was typewriters and mimeo machines - none of this fancy new computer stuff!  I still have quite a bit of the material including annual reports and the like.  It pays to be in the right place at the right time.  I did not have to dive into dumpsters either!
               
              Larry

              --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...> wrote:

              From: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...>
              Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 12:05 PM

               
              Between Engineering' s move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years ago, a LOT of stuff was pitched.

              Lord knows I was doing a lot of dumpster-diving in the halls at the Mart.....

              --- On Thu, 10/1/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@comcast. net> wrote:

              > From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@comcast. net>
              > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:50 AM
              >
              > The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were
              > built is to look
              > at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street
              > Subway and
              > the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.
              >
              > Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning".
              > Many old
              > photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been
              > tossed into
              > the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many
              > old items
              > are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original
              > proposals for
              > the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway
              > Rapid Transt
              > Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?
              >
              > Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the
              > proposals  for the
              > Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid
              > Transt Route?
              > This has to be material that you can actually put your
              > hands on and not
              > something you think you may have seen or were told about
              > second hand.
              >
              > Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east
              > of the
              > UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios
              > of how they
              > could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of
              > the
              > Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.
              >
              > I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly
              > stopped running
              > and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3
              > blocks from
              > where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to
              > run. Perhaps this is
              > the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.
              >
              > Ed
              >
              >
              > --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com,
              > <c.burnstein@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting
              > and enlightening
              > with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date.
              > I'd like to
              > add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown
              > Chicago thru a subway,
              > only the steel cars could have used it because of a city
              > ordnance
              > against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire
              > hazard.
              > > Cliff B.
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: chicagoutopia
              > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
              > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the
              > Congress and the CA&E
              > changing tunes
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan
              > Area released by
              > the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The
              > publication
              > states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the
              > new West Side
              > Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central
              > Business
              > District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
              > >
              > > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20
              > other transit
              > projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the
              > "Lake Street
              > Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the
              > Lake St. "L"
              > south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress
              > Expressway. Once
              > connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the
              > Lake St. "L"
              > would proceed east to the Central Business District.
              > >
              > > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any
              > specific comments
              > it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the
              > Expressway to use the
              > Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two
              > of the
              > subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be
              > used for the
              > Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
              > Congress-Dearborn Subway.
              > >
              > > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted
              > stations and the
              > east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set
              > aside to switch
              > the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway
              > tunnel
              > entrances.
              > >
              > > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect
              > with the Congress
              > Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New
              > Horizons booklet
              > does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not
              > want the CA&E on
              > its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not
              > enter into an
              > agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The
              > CA&E also would have
              > to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
              > >
              > > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up
              > in the New
              > Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median
              > strip rapid
              > transit in the South Expressway south of the Central
              > Business District.
              > There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway
              > mentioned.
              > >
              > > In more recent times, over the years there has been
              > talk about a light
              > rail system to connect Union Station with the Central
              > Business District,
              > upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use
              > existing
              > vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
              > >
              > > Ed
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com,
              > "gauge18rr" olanderson@
              > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Once again,
              > > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of
              > Subways and
              > Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through,
              > which showed a
              > route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a
              > separate
              > tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and
              > went north to
              > Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the
              > final iteration
              > of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal.
              > Storage tracks were
              > placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but
              > generally the
              > CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of
              > the CTA for that
              > stop.
              > > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am
              > sorry that is not
              > the case. When I google about it, I find the City of
              > Chicago public
              > library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they
              > were an
              > edition which included all the changes that occurred during
              > the planning
              > process.
              > > > This is an important part of the story of the
              > CA&E which has not
              > been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
              > > > O.
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ------
              >
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              >
              >
              >     mailto:thegreatthirdrail- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
              >
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