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Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

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  • David T. Koyzis
    As you may recall, the whole impetus behind building the interstate highway system in the 1950s was for defensive purposes. Eisenhower got the idea from the
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 21, 2009
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      As you may recall, the whole impetus behind building the interstate highway system in the 1950s was for defensive purposes. Eisenhower got the idea from the German autobahn system and pushed it in the climate of the Cold War, which was already fuelling the growth of the federal government. One could hardly roll tanks down Route 66 through St. Louis, Joplin, Missouri, Oklahoma City (mighty pretty :-)), &c. Nor would the railways be adequate for this. True, the Congress/Eisenhower was planned before Eisenhower took office, but it certainly fit into the climate of the times, given that government action during emergencies (Depression, WWII, Cold War) was increasingly taken for granted.

      One should also not forget the role played by Daniel Burnham's Plan of Chicago
      , whose centenary we observe this year. Burnham and company envisioned a grand east-west Parisian-style boulevard along Congress Street leading to a capitol-like city centre to be built approximately where the Circle Interchange is today. The Congress Expressway was simply a more ambitious version of this idea tailored to the needs of postwar suburbia and the growing use of the automobile. Jules Guerin's and Fernand Janin's illustrations of the proposed boulevard did not envision a place for an interurban railway.

      David


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "tom leaton" <tomleaton@...>
      To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 4:11:13 PM
      Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

       

      As to the term taking: this is the precise legal term used for acquisitions of land by the powers of Eminent Domain and condemnation, and appears in the 14th Amendment.

      There is no other term that I can think of to describe what happens when a government shuts down the entire former Garfield park line, and all operations West of Wells St. and East of Desplaines Ave., in one fell swoop. This required much mandatory land title transfer, cemetery excavation, etc.

      Did that event put railroad management in a sour mood? I don't know personally, but I bet it would.  The line was supposed to pay its own bills through revenues and this event was no help.

      This project was in the works before the ascendancy of Sen. McCarthy and before the H-Bomb, and the public apathy that I described has nothing to do with McCarthyism.  If the people 1n 1955 did not like government spending, they did not say much about it regarding the expressway system.

      cheers

       


      To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
      From: gfoelschow@...
      Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 19:35:59 +0000
      Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

       
      --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "gauge18rr" <olanderson@...> wrote:
      >
      > In discussions with several older IRM museum members, I have heard that the CA&E voluntarily stopped running to the loop, it was not "taken away from them." I think this is an oversimplified version of the story.
      >
      > I heard the CA&E argued it would be unsafe to run on the surface. That is not really a valid argument with it already running on the surface, and the CTA made provisions for including CA&E in the service plan. The Forest Park branch CTA trains ran safely so there was also little validity to the argument by example.
      >
      > If the CA&E actually used the temporary track, service might have even improved. I heard many stations were eliminated and the route was fairly straight, resulting in faster times for the CTA trains. Much of it was an express ride.
      >
      > To my knowledge CA&E made the decision to cut back. My question is, "When was this idea percolating after 1946?" The expressway did not provide real competition until it was fully opened, and at that time it still probably would have been better on the Roarin' Elgin from Glen Ellyn westward. I doubt the parking issues in the loop were ever cheap or easy either.
      >
      > Yes changing times were a factor. I agree. I am just trying to figure out what changed, when. Another factor might have been an assumption that the railroad would have been profitable enough to pay for its own improvements as part of the expressway project. That might have been the case here. The railroad was less able to do that, obviously, with the drop in the postwar ridership. The railroad probably had limited ability to take on more debt to invest in it, and maybe the shareholders would not have approved the risk. Did corporate records of the CA&E get preserved?
      >
      > With the McCarthyism madness in the 1950s, public support for public benefits were not popular in the media hype. But that could have been what was needed. I wonder if the railroad ever asked for city/state funding of their track and equipment improvements?
      >
      > Thanks for your thoughts!
      > -O.
      >
      There are some misconceptions here that need to be addressed. It is true that CA&E was offered the option of using the Van Buren Street surface tracks to reach its Wells Street Terminal. CA&E demurred, saying that operation in the street would be unsafe. There was no grade crossing protection as trains and motor traffic was controlled by traffic signals. Electric eyes were installed to give trains priority, but in practice it didn't work out. As a result, Garfield Park "L" trains were obliged to stop at every open cross street, resulting in a tortuously slow trip. Running time from the Loop to Desplaines Avenue increased from about 30 minutes to 45 minutes. The stretch from Kedzie to Halsted was "express" only in the sense that there were no stations on Van Buren Street. Also, "A" and "B" rush hour express service was dropped, with all trains making all local stops. In the morning rush, a few trains that filled up with CA&E transferring passengers were dispatched as expresses, disappointing regular "L" passengers.
      CTA's original plan was to erect a temporary trestle in Van Buren Street, which the CA&E probably would have agreed to, but Alderman Bowler of the 25th Ward objected, so that idea was dropped.
      Overnight, the CA&E's business dropped by half. Before the 1953 change, CA&E rush hour trains were crush-load packed. Much traffic was diverted to C&NW, and some to the Burlington and Milwaukee Road. On the Garfield "L", the parallel Douglas and Lake Street lines were faster for those given a choice.
      I lived in Elgin during this period. A trip from the Loop to Elgin was easily a two-hour journey. In contrast, the 5:10 Milwaukee Road express from Union Station to Elgin was a 50-minute sprint.
      While state subsidies were discussed, general sentiment was against such "socialist" notions, especially with the Orville Hodge scandal brewing. Remember him?




      Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you.

    • Larry M
      I am not sure where you got this from but I rode the Garfield in 1957.  Ironically the purpose was to have my one and only ride on the CA&E.  Service was
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 21, 2009
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        I am not sure where you got this from but I rode the Garfield in 1957.  Ironically the purpose was to have my one and only ride on the CA&E.  Service was most likely not faster on the street level.  The train had to follow the traffic signals much like our present light rail trains do here in the Twin Cities.  The speed of the trains wee slow and required to stop at every single intersection that crossed the tracks.  I have both books by Larry Plachno as well as the original CERA book but have not had time to review the actual circumstances so rather than give false information I will do some research when I have time. 
         
        The actual suspension of passenger service on 3 July is long and complex other than in basic terms then Mayor Egan of Aurora, on his own by this time, failed to come up with the necessary $10,000 bond to sustain the suspension. That being done at or about 12:15 P M that day the order was given to stop all passenger service. We all know the rest. A note of irony on a personal note is that I went to grade school with Joe Zoline's daughter in Winnetka and was at that house several times. He was the attorney for the railroad at the time.

        FYI car 421 was very last train out of Wells St. Station on the early morning of 20 September 1953. While this terminated passenger service passenger service to Wells St. there may have been one more movement involving express cars. CTA was quick to sever the connection and did so the morning of the 20th.

        Orville Hodge! Oh my! I remember him. Another Illinois scandal. Didn't Statton also have the honor of going to prison? What ever happened to dear old Orv anyway!  Goodness, how many Illinois governors or high ranking officials have been guests of the Federal System (including one that very well might have the same honors)!.
         
        Larry

        --- On Mon, 9/21/09, gauge18rr <olanderson@...> wrote:


        From: gauge18rr <olanderson@...>
        Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
        To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:11 PM


         



        In discussions with several older IRM museum members, I have heard that the CA&E voluntarily stopped running to the loop, it was not "taken away from them." I think this is an oversimplified version of the story.

        I heard the CA&E argued it would be unsafe to run on the surface. That is not really a valid argument with it already running on the surface, and the CTA made provisions for including CA&E in the service plan. The Forest Park branch CTA trains ran safely so there was also little validity to the argument by example.

        If the CA&E actually used the temporary track, service might have even improved. I heard many stations were eliminated and the route was fairly straight, resulting in faster times for the CTA trains. Much of it was an express ride.

        To my knowledge CA&E made the decision to cut back. My question is, "When was this idea percolating after 1946?" The expressway did not provide real competition
        until it was fully opened, and at that time it still probably would have been better on the Roarin' Elgin from Glen Ellyn westward. I doubt the parking issues in the loop were ever cheap or easy either.

        Yes changing times were a factor. I agree. I am just trying to figure out what changed, when. Another factor might have been an assumption that the railroad would have been profitable enough to pay for its own improvements as part of the expressway project. That might have been the case here. The railroad was less able to do that, obviously, with the drop in the postwar ridership. The railroad probably had limited ability to take on more debt to invest in it, and maybe the shareholders would not have approved the risk. Did corporate records of the CA&E get preserved?

        With the McCarthyism madness in the 1950s, public support for public benefits were not popular in the media hype. But that could have been what was needed. I wonder if the
        railroad ever asked for city/state funding of their track and equipment improvements?

        Thanks for your thoughts!
        -O.

        --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, tom leaton <tomleaton@. ..> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: tomleaton@.. .
        > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
        > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
        >
        >
        > I don't believe that those curtailments of service reflected any antipatory
        > change of heart by management. Conversely, the changing times, so to
        > speak, brought
        disaster to the line.
        >
        >
        >
        > After the war, new autos were scarce for a year or so. After that, the new car sales took off.
        >
        > Worse for the CA&E, By 1953 the line's direct access to Chicago was
        > taken away from them. Curtailed service to Forest Park did nothing to
        > increase ridership (and any proposed shared trackage to the Loop would
        > have also entailed elongated schedules.)
        >
        > In 1955 the first segment of the expressway opened to much popular
        > response. It was a sensation, compared to a traffic-choked drive down
        > Roosevelt Road.
        >
        > By 1957 the Exp'way was almost complete to Hillside and its usage was
        > growing, further robbing the CA&E of ridership. The passenger
        > service which ended in 1957 was missed, but there was little effective
        > hue and cry for its restoration in the news. ( Although at that time
        > the
        news coverage was not so intense, train-wise. )
        >
        > The Congress Expressway opened in 1960 with an advertised 18 minute
        > drive at 60 mph to the Loop from its (then) Elmhurst terminus. Again, drivers loved it, and the
        > game was over for the railroad.
        >
        >
        >
        > ( In contrast, by 1961 BART was under construction in Oakland, and the JNR Bullet Train was already exceeding 100 mph. )
        >
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Tom
        >
        > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
        > From: tomleaton@.. .
        > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:56:18 -0500
        > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
        >
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        > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
        > From: olanderson@. ..
        > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 04:57:44 +0000
        > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
        >
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        > I am curious about the transition to the end of the CA&E, in the years following WW2. Unfortunately I divested myself of too much of my library in years past so I will need to ask those who know to
        chip in. Or schedule a trip to a well-stocked library someday.
        >
        >
        >
        > It seems to me that initially in the 1940s the CA&E was all about modernization and was eager to be a part of the new subway/superhighway plan that gave them a better route to the city. They ordered new cars for delivery from St. Louis in 1946, and had an option for eight more to retire the wood cars.
        >
        >
        >
        > I believe the corporate ownership of the railroad changed sometime in the late 1940s but don't recall who or how or what happened. Construction of the "West Route" of the Chicago Superhighway system must have begun in the late 40s or early 50s, starting with land acquisition and demolition, before service was cut back to DesPlaines.
        >
        >
        >
        > There was some change in the dynamics of urban living in that time too, but I was wondering if mainly it was a new corporate policy to get out of the
        transit business, that led to the truncated service?
        >
        >
        >
        > If they wanted the cars, there were 12 steel+wood and 8 all-steel cars available from the B&A (former WB&A) in 1950.
        >
        >
        >
        > Just curious to see what might have happened...
        >
        > O.
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        >
        > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
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      • Scott Greig
        I have long had my doubts about that story of express cars making a final run to Wells Street terminal after the last passenger car departed.  As a couple of
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 21, 2009
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          I have long had my doubts about that story of express cars making a final run to Wells Street terminal after the last passenger car departed.  As a couple of eyewitness accounts and a published photo have shown, the CTA track crews severed the rails literally as soon as the last passenger train departed CTA property.  The majority of company property at the terminal could have been hauled out on scheduled trains earlier that day and the rest could have been hauled away with a truck.

          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Larry M <minnman554212000@...> wrote:

          From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
          Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
          To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 8:43 PM



          I am not sure where you got this from but I rode the Garfield in 1957.  Ironically the purpose was to have my one and only ride on the CA&E.  Service was most likely not faster on the street level.  The train had to follow the traffic signals much like our present light rail trains do here in the Twin Cities.  The speed of the trains wee slow and required to stop at every single intersection that crossed the tracks.  I have both books by Larry Plachno as well as the original CERA book but have not had time to review the actual circumstances so rather than give false information I will do some research when I have time. 
           
          The actual suspension of passenger service on 3 July is long and complex other than in basic terms then Mayor Egan of Aurora, on his own by this time, failed to come up with the necessary $10,000 bond to sustain the suspension. That being done at or about 12:15 P M that day the order was given to stop all passenger service. We all know the rest. A note of irony on a personal note is that I went to grade school with Joe Zoline's daughter in Winnetka and was at that house several times. He was the attorney for the railroad at the time.

          FYI car 421 was very last train out of Wells St. Station on the early morning of 20 September 1953. While this terminated passenger service passenger service to Wells St. there may have been one more movement involving express cars. CTA was quick to sever the connection and did so the morning of the 20th.

          Orville Hodge! Oh my! I remember him. Another Illinois scandal. Didn't Statton also have the honor of going to prison? What ever happened to dear old Orv anyway!  Goodness, how many Illinois governors or high ranking officials have been guests of the Federal System (including one that very well might have the same honors)!.
           
          Larry

          --- On Mon, 9/21/09, gauge18rr <olanderson@...> wrote:


          From: gauge18rr <olanderson@...>
          Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
          To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:11 PM


           



          In discussions with several older IRM museum members, I have heard that the CA&E voluntarily stopped running to the loop, it was not "taken away from them." I think this is an oversimplified version of the story.

          I heard the CA&E argued it would be unsafe to run on the surface. That is not really a valid argument with it already running on the surface, and the CTA made provisions for including CA&E in the service plan. The Forest Park branch CTA trains ran safely so there was also little validity to the argument by example.

          If the CA&E actually used the temporary track, service might have even improved. I heard many stations were eliminated and the route was fairly straight, resulting in faster times for the CTA trains. Much of it was an express ride.

          To my knowledge CA&E made the decision to cut back. My question is, "When was this idea percolating after 1946?" The expressway did not provide real competition
          until it was fully opened, and at that time it still probably would have been better on the Roarin' Elgin from Glen Ellyn westward. I doubt the parking issues in the loop were ever cheap or easy either.

          Yes changing times were a factor. I agree. I am just trying to figure out what changed, when. Another factor might have been an assumption that the railroad would have been profitable enough to pay for its own improvements as part of the expressway project. That might have been the case here. The railroad was less able to do that, obviously, with the drop in the postwar ridership. The railroad probably had limited ability to take on more debt to invest in it, and maybe the shareholders would not have approved the risk. Did corporate records of the CA&E get preserved?

          With the McCarthyism madness in the 1950s, public support for public benefits were not popular in the media hype. But that could have been what was needed. I wonder if the
          railroad ever asked for city/state funding of their track and equipment improvements?

          Thanks for your thoughts!
          -O.

          --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, tom leaton <tomleaton@. ..> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: tomleaton@.. .
          > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
          > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
          >
          >
          > I don't believe that those curtailments of service reflected any antipatory
          > change of heart by management. Conversely, the changing times, so to
          > speak, brought
          disaster to the line.
          >
          >
          >
          > After the war, new autos were scarce for a year or so. After that, the new car sales took off.
          >
          > Worse for the CA&E, By 1953 the line's direct access to Chicago was
          > taken away from them. Curtailed service to Forest Park did nothing to
          > increase ridership (and any proposed shared trackage to the Loop would
          > have also entailed elongated schedules.)
          >
          > In 1955 the first segment of the expressway opened to much popular
          > response. It was a sensation, compared to a traffic-choked drive down
          > Roosevelt Road.
          >
          > By 1957 the Exp'way was almost complete to Hillside and its usage was
          > growing, further robbing the CA&E of ridership. The passenger
          > service which ended in 1957 was missed, but there was little effective
          > hue and cry for its restoration in the news. ( Although at that time
          > the
          news coverage was not so intense, train-wise. )
          >
          > The Congress Expressway opened in 1960 with an advertised 18 minute
          > drive at 60 mph to the Loop from its (then) Elmhurst terminus. Again, drivers loved it, and the
          > game was over for the railroad.
          >
          >
          >
          > ( In contrast, by 1961 BART was under construction in Oakland, and the JNR Bullet Train was already exceeding 100 mph. )
          >
          >
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Tom
          >
          > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
          > From: tomleaton@.. .
          > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:56:18 -0500
          > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          >
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          >
          > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
          > From: olanderson@. ..
          > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 04:57:44 +0000
          > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I am curious about the transition to the end of the CA&E, in the years following WW2. Unfortunately I divested myself of too much of my library in years past so I will need to ask those who know to
          chip in. Or schedule a trip to a well-stocked library someday.
          >
          >
          >
          > It seems to me that initially in the 1940s the CA&E was all about modernization and was eager to be a part of the new subway/superhighway plan that gave them a better route to the city. They ordered new cars for delivery from St. Louis in 1946, and had an option for eight more to retire the wood cars.
          >
          >
          >
          > I believe the corporate ownership of the railroad changed sometime in the late 1940s but don't recall who or how or what happened. Construction of the "West Route" of the Chicago Superhighway system must have begun in the late 40s or early 50s, starting with land acquisition and demolition, before service was cut back to DesPlaines.
          >
          >
          >
          > There was some change in the dynamics of urban living in that time too, but I was wondering if mainly it was a new corporate policy to get out of the
          transit business, that led to the truncated service?
          >
          >
          >
          > If they wanted the cars, there were 12 steel+wood and 8 all-steel cars available from the B&A (former WB&A) in 1950.
          >
          >
          >
          > Just curious to see what might have happened...
          >
          > O.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
          > http://www.bing. com?form= MFEHPG&publ= WLHMTAG&crea= TEXT_MFEHPG_ Core_tagline_ try bing_1x1
          >















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        • dalec58
          Recently, I read an old newspaper article (in .pdf format) on the First and Fastest site that talked about Mayor Richard J. Daley trying to get the CA&E back
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 25, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Recently, I read an old newspaper article (in .pdf format) on the "First and Fastest" site that talked about Mayor Richard J. Daley trying to get the CA&E back into Chicago with a terminal. According to the article, there would have been a ramp from the expressway to the elevated leading to the Wells Street Terminal. The city would have provided it. This was a surprise to me as I do not remember Daley supporting anything like this, let alone anything positive for Du Page county. I do not know the date of the article, so I cannot time it with any work done by the CTA after the discontinuance of service beyond Forest Park.

            What I do remember was that the railroad was trying to get some sort of subsidy for remaining in the passenger business. Gov. Stratton ignored this, so did the legilature, and a referendum in Du Page county failed. Roy Blackwell was an advocate for the restoration of passenger service, and he led the effort to pass this referundum. A forest preserve in Warrenville is named after him.

            The running of trains at street level to/from Wells St. would have yielded the same disaster that the Forest Park terminal did. Could you imagine what the "Cannonball" might have been re-named under such conditions? The "Slow Pitch Softball"? Times on the CTA were better because stops were eliminated and switching issues with the CA&E didn't exist anymore, not necessary due to a straight run at fast speeds.

            Crossing gates at the intersections would had to be put in by the CA&E, and the railroad's management was too cheap to do this temporary measure. Considering traffic and pedestrian flow in the area of the right of way, this might not have solved the problem of safety either. Further, for safety purposes, would they have to be like the crossings in Maywood (with a tower so that the gates could be held down)? Having wrote that, it certainly would have made travel through the area faster for all of the trains. There is a video available, "The Chicago Aurora and Elgin", that has film of the Garfield surface line in a later addition of the video. It clearly shows the safety concerns of the time.

            I still wonder what the two extra entrances (where the CTA goes into the subway before the old Post Office) are for and if there is a spot under the city where a terminal was planned or even built for the CA&E. That would be news, and might help to us to better understand what happenned after the closing of the Wells Terminal. Maybe there are some records somewhere that would indicate this. I wish that I had the time to do research.


            --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have long had my doubts about that story of express cars making a final run to Wells Street terminal after the last passenger car departed.  As a couple of eyewitness accounts and a published photo have shown, the CTA track crews severed the rails literally as soon as the last passenger train departed CTA property.  The majority of company property at the terminal could have been hauled out on scheduled trains earlier that day and the rest could have been hauled away with a truck.
            >
            > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Larry M <minnman554212000@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: Larry M <minnman554212000@...>
            > Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
            > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 8:43 PM
            >
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            >
            >
            > I am not sure where you got this from but I rode the Garfield in 1957.  Ironically the purpose was to have my one and only ride on the CA&E.  Service was most likely not faster on the street level.  The train had to follow the traffic signals much like our present light rail trains do here in the Twin Cities.  The speed of the trains wee slow and required to stop at every single intersection that crossed the tracks.  I have both books by Larry Plachno as well as the original CERA book but have not had time to review the actual circumstances so rather than give false information I will do some research when I have time. 
            >  
            > The actual suspension of passenger service on 3 July is long and complex other than in basic terms then Mayor Egan of Aurora, on his own by this time, failed to come up with the necessary $10,000
            > bond to sustain the suspension. That being done at or about 12:15 P M that day the order was given to stop all passenger service. We all know the rest. A note of irony on a personal note is that I went to grade school with Joe Zoline's daughter in Winnetka and was at that house several times. He was the attorney for the railroad at the time.
            >
            > FYI car 421 was very last train out of Wells St. Station on the early morning of 20 September 1953. While this terminated passenger service passenger service to Wells St. there may have been one more movement involving express cars. CTA was quick to sever the connection and did so the morning of the 20th.
            >
            > Orville Hodge! Oh my! I remember him. Another Illinois scandal. Didn't Statton also have the honor of going to prison? What ever happened to dear old Orv anyway!  Goodness, how many Illinois governors or high ranking officials have been guests of the Federal System (including one that very well
            > might have the same honors)!.
            >  
            > Larry
            >
            > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, gauge18rr <olanderson@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: gauge18rr <olanderson@...>
            > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
            > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:11 PM
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > In discussions with several older IRM museum members, I have heard that the CA&E voluntarily stopped running to the loop, it was not "taken away from them." I think this is an oversimplified version of the story.
            >
            > I heard the CA&E argued it would be unsafe to run on the surface. That is not really a valid argument with it already running on the surface, and the CTA made provisions for including CA&E in the service plan. The Forest Park branch CTA trains ran safely so there was also little validity to the argument by
            > example.
            >
            > If the CA&E actually used the temporary track, service might have even improved. I heard many stations were eliminated and the route was fairly straight, resulting in faster times for the CTA trains. Much of it was an express ride.
            >
            > To my knowledge CA&E made the decision to cut back. My question is, "When was this idea percolating after 1946?" The expressway did not provide real competition
            > until it was fully opened, and at that time it still probably would have been better on the Roarin' Elgin from Glen Ellyn westward. I doubt the parking issues in the loop were ever cheap or easy either.
            >
            > Yes changing times were a factor. I agree. I am just trying to figure out what changed, when. Another factor might have been an assumption that the railroad would have been profitable enough to pay for its own improvements as part of the expressway project. That might have been the case here. The railroad was less able to do
            > that, obviously, with the drop in the postwar ridership. The railroad probably had limited ability to take on more debt to invest in it, and maybe the shareholders would not have approved the risk. Did corporate records of the CA&E get preserved?
            >
            > With the McCarthyism madness in the 1950s, public support for public benefits were not popular in the media hype. But that could have been what was needed. I wonder if the
            > railroad ever asked for city/state funding of their track and equipment improvements?
            >
            > Thanks for your thoughts!
            > -O.
            >
            > --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, tom leaton <tomleaton@ ..> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > From: tomleaton@ .
            > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
            > > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
            > >
            > >
            > > I don't believe that those curtailments of service reflected any antipatory
            > > change of
            > heart by management. Conversely, the changing times, so to
            > > speak, brought
            > disaster to the line.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > After the war, new autos were scarce for a year or so. After that, the new car sales took off.
            > >
            > > Worse for the CA&E, By 1953 the line's direct access to Chicago was
            > > taken away from them. Curtailed service to Forest Park did nothing to
            > > increase ridership (and any proposed shared trackage to the Loop would
            > > have also entailed elongated schedules.)
            > >
            > > In 1955 the first segment of the expressway opened to much popular
            > > response. It was a sensation, compared to a traffic-choked drive down
            > > Roosevelt Road.
            > >
            > > By 1957 the Exp'way was almost complete to Hillside and its usage was
            > > growing, further robbing the CA&E of ridership. The passenger
            > > service which ended in 1957 was missed, but there was little effective
            > >
            > hue and cry for its restoration in the news. ( Although at that time
            > > the
            > news coverage was not so intense, train-wise. )
            > >
            > > The Congress Expressway opened in 1960 with an advertised 18 minute
            > > drive at 60 mph to the Loop from its (then) Elmhurst terminus. Again, drivers loved it, and the
            > > game was over for the railroad.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ( In contrast, by 1961 BART was under construction in Oakland, and the JNR Bullet Train was already exceeding 100 mph. )
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Regards,
            > >
            > > Tom
            > >
            > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
            > > From: tomleaton@ .
            > > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:56:18 -0500
            > > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
            > > From: olanderson@ ..
            > > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 04:57:44 +0000
            > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I am curious about the transition to the end of the CA&E, in the years following WW2. Unfortunately I divested myself of too much of my library in years past so I will need to ask those who know to
            > chip in. Or schedule a trip to a well-stocked library someday.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > It seems to me that initially in the 1940s the CA&E was all about modernization and was eager to be a part of the new subway/superhighway plan that gave
            > them a better route to the city. They ordered new cars for delivery from St. Louis in 1946, and had an option for eight more to retire the wood cars.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > I believe the corporate ownership of the railroad changed sometime in the late 1940s but don't recall who or how or what happened. Construction of the "West Route" of the Chicago Superhighway system must have begun in the late 40s or early 50s, starting with land acquisition and demolition, before service was cut back to DesPlaines.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > There was some change in the dynamics of urban living in that time too, but I was wondering if mainly it was a new corporate policy to get out of the
            > transit business, that led to the truncated service?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > If they wanted the cars, there were 12 steel+wood and 8 all-steel cars available from the B&A (former WB&A) in 1950.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Just
            > curious to see what might have happened...
            > >
            > > O.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            > > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
            > > http://www.bing com?form= MFEHPG&publ= WLHMTAG&crea= TEXT_MFEHPG_ Core_tagline_ try bing_1x1
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • RayCosyn
            I do remember quite vividly the plan for a ramp from the expressway to the elevated tracks just west of the post office. I am not sure who was behind the plan
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 25, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              I do remember quite vividly the plan for a ramp from the expressway to the elevated tracks just west of the post office. I am not sure who was behind the plan but the front page of the Daily News showed an artist sketch of what the ramp would have looked like. It wasn't pretty. My assumption was that the trains would return to Wells via the ramp once the expressway was open and street running ended. I used to ride the Garfield Park El trains as a student when they were operating at street level. It was make shift at best.  
               
              Ray Cosyn



              From: dalec58 <dalec58@...>
              To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:53:25 PM
              Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

               

              Recently, I read an old newspaper article (in .pdf format) on the "First and Fastest" site that talked about Mayor Richard J. Daley trying to get the CA&E back into Chicago with a terminal. According to the article, there would have been a ramp from the expressway to the elevated leading to the Wells Street Terminal. The city would have provided it. This was a surprise to me as I do not remember Daley supporting anything like this, let alone anything positive for Du Page county. I do not know the date of the article, so I cannot time it with any work done by the CTA after the discontinuance of service beyond Forest Park.

              What I do remember was that the railroad was trying to get some sort of subsidy for remaining in the passenger business. Gov. Stratton ignored this, so did the legilature, and a referendum in Du Page county failed. Roy Blackwell was an advocate for the restoration of passenger service, and he led the effort to pass this referundum. A forest preserve in Warrenville is named after him.

              The running of trains at street level to/from Wells St. would have yielded the same disaster that the Forest Park terminal did. Could you imagine what the "Cannonball" might have been re-named under such conditions? The "Slow Pitch Softball"? Times on the CTA were better because stops were eliminated and switching issues with the CA&E didn't exist anymore, not necessary due to a straight run at fast speeds.

              Crossing gates at the intersections would had to be put in by the CA&E, and the railroad's management was too cheap to do this temporary measure. Considering traffic and pedestrian flow in the area of the right of way, this might not have solved the problem of safety either. Further, for safety purposes, would they have to be like the crossings in Maywood (with a tower so that the gates could be held down)? Having wrote that, it certainly would have made travel through the area faster for all of the trains. There is a video available, "The Chicago Aurora and Elgin", that has film of the Garfield surface line in a later addition of the video. It clearly shows the safety concerns of the time.

              I still wonder what the two extra entrances (where the CTA goes into the subway before the old Post Office) are for and if there is a spot under the city where a terminal was planned or even built for the CA&E. That would be news, and might help to us to better understand what happenned after the closing of the Wells Terminal. Maybe there are some records somewhere that would indicate this. I wish that I had the time to do research.

              --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > I have long had my doubts about that story of express cars making a final run to Wells Street terminal after the last passenger car departed.  As a couple of eyewitness accounts and a published photo have shown, the CTA track crews severed the rails literally as soon as the last passenger train departed CTA property.  The majority of company property at the terminal could have been hauled out on scheduled trains earlier that day and the rest could have been hauled away with a truck.
              >
              > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > From: Larry M <minnman554212000@ ...>
              > Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 8:43 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I am not sure where you got this from but I rode the Garfield in 1957.  Ironically the purpose was to have my one and only ride on the CA&E.  Service was most likely not faster on the street level.  The train had to follow the traffic signals much like our present light rail trains do here in the Twin Cities.  The speed of the trains wee slow and required to stop at every single intersection that crossed the tracks.  I have both books by Larry Plachno as well as the original CERA book but have not had time to review the actual circumstances so rather than give false information I will do some research when I have time. 
              >  
              > The actual suspension of passenger service on 3 July is long and complex other than in basic terms then Mayor Egan of Aurora, on his own by this time, failed to come up with the necessary $10,000
              > bond to sustain the suspension. That being done at or about 12:15 P M that day the order was given to stop all passenger service. We all know the rest. A note of irony on a personal note is that I went to grade school with Joe Zoline's daughter in Winnetka and was at that house several times. He was the attorney for the railroad at the time.
              >
              > FYI car 421 was very last train out of Wells St. Station on the early morning of 20 September 1953. While this terminated passenger service passenger service to Wells St. there may have been one more movement involving express cars. CTA was quick to sever the connection and did so the morning of the 20th.
              >
              > Orville Hodge! Oh my! I remember him. Another Illinois scandal. Didn't Statton also have the honor of going to prison? What ever happened to dear old Orv anyway!  Goodness, how many Illinois governors or high ranking officials have been guests of the Federal System (including one that very well
              > might have the same honors)!.
              >  
              > Larry
              >
              > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, gauge18rr <olanderson@ ...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: gauge18rr <olanderson@ ...>
              > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 1:11 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > In discussions with several older IRM museum members, I have heard that the CA&E voluntarily stopped running to the loop, it was not "taken away from them." I think this is an oversimplified version of the story.
              >
              > I heard the CA&E argued it would be unsafe to run on the surface. That is not really a valid argument with it already running on the surface, and the CTA made provisions for including CA&E in the service plan. The Forest Park branch CTA trains ran safely so there was also little validity to the argument by
              > example.
              >
              > If the CA&E actually used the temporary track, service might have even improved. I heard many stations were eliminated and the route was fairly straight, resulting in faster times for the CTA trains. Much of it was an express ride.
              >
              > To my knowledge CA&E made the decision to cut back. My question is, "When was this idea percolating after 1946?" The expressway did not provide real competition
              > until it was fully opened, and at that time it still probably would have been better on the Roarin' Elgin from Glen Ellyn westward. I doubt the parking issues in the loop were ever cheap or easy either.
              >
              > Yes changing times were a factor. I agree. I am just trying to figure out what changed, when. Another factor might have been an assumption that the railroad would have been profitable enough to pay for its own improvements as part of the expressway project. That might have been the case here. The railroad was less able to do
              > that, obviously, with the drop in the postwar ridership. The railroad probably had limited ability to take on more debt to invest in it, and maybe the shareholders would not have approved the risk. Did corporate records of the CA&E get preserved?
              >
              > With the McCarthyism madness in the 1950s, public support for public benefits were not popular in the media hype. But that could have been what was needed. I wonder if the
              > railroad ever asked for city/state funding of their track and equipment improvements?
              >
              > Thanks for your thoughts!
              > -O.
              >
              > --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, tom leaton <tomleaton@ ..> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: tomleaton@ .
              > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              > >
              > >
              > > I don't believe that those curtailments of service reflected any antipatory
              > > change of
              > heart by management. Conversely, the changing times, so to
              > > speak, brought
              > disaster to the line.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > After the war, new autos were scarce for a year or so. After that, the new car sales took off.
              > >
              > > Worse for the CA&E, By 1953 the line's direct access to Chicago was
              > > taken away from them. Curtailed service to Forest Park did nothing to
              > > increase ridership (and any proposed shared trackage to the Loop would
              > > have also entailed elongated schedules.)
              > >
              > > In 1955 the first segment of the expressway opened to much popular
              > > response. It was a sensation, compared to a traffic-choked drive down
              > > Roosevelt Road.
              > >
              > > By 1957 the Exp'way was almost complete to Hillside and its usage was
              > > growing, further robbing the CA&E of ridership. The passenger
              > > service which ended in 1957 was missed, but there was little effective
              > >
              > hue and cry for its restoration in the news. ( Although at that time
              > > the
              > news coverage was not so intense, train-wise. )
              > >
              > > The Congress Expressway opened in 1960 with an advertised 18 minute
              > > drive at 60 mph to the Loop from its (then) Elmhurst terminus. Again, drivers loved it, and the
              > > game was over for the railroad.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ( In contrast, by 1961 BART was under construction in Oakland, and the JNR Bullet Train was already exceeding 100 mph. )
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > >
              > > Tom
              > >
              > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > > From: tomleaton@ .
              > > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 01:56:18 -0500
              > > Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
              > > From: olanderson@ ..
              > > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 04:57:44 +0000
              > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I am curious about the transition to the end of the CA&E, in the years following WW2. Unfortunately I divested myself of too much of my library in years past so I will need to ask those who know to
              > chip in. Or schedule a trip to a well-stocked library someday.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > It seems to me that initially in the 1940s the CA&E was all about modernization and was eager to be a part of the new subway/superhighway plan that gave
              > them a better route to the city. They ordered new cars for delivery from St. Louis in 1946, and had an option for eight more to retire the wood cars.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > I believe the corporate ownership of the railroad changed sometime in the late 1940s but don't recall who or how or what happened. Construction of the "West Route" of the Chicago Superhighway system must have begun in the late 40s or early 50s, starting with land acquisition and demolition, before service was cut back to DesPlaines.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > There was some change in the dynamics of urban living in that time too, but I was wondering if mainly it was a new corporate policy to get out of the
              > transit business, that led to the truncated service?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > If they wanted the cars, there were 12 steel+wood and 8 all-steel cars available from the B&A (former WB&A) in 1950.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Just
              > curious to see what might have happened...
              > >
              > > O.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that's right for you.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              > > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bingâ„¢ now
              > > http://www.bing. com?form= MFEHPG&publ= WLHMTAG&crea= TEXT_MFEHPG_ Core_tagline_ try bing_1x1
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail. yahoo.com
              >

            • marionm122@aol.com
              Those two cemented-over portals that you see at the entrance to the Blue Line Subway at Halsted Street were provided during construction with the thought of
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 26, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Those two cemented-over portals that you see at the entrance to the Blue Line Subway at Halsted Street
                were provided during construction with the thought of some how providing accomodations for the Chicago
                Aurora & Elgin to resume service into Chicago once the construction was finished.
                You will also note that the there vacant land next to the westbound CTA track that have been used to
                build a second set of tracks for east and west operations for the CA&E but the railroad was rapidly losing
                passengers and money and as mentioned earlier the State of Illinois has no interest in providing a subsidy
                for the CA&E and the CTA couldn't afford to purchase and maintain it so the Aurora Corporation figured it
                was in THEIR best interests to petition the I.C.C. for abandonment and sell the assets for it's salvage value
                and this is exactly what they did. And when the abandonment petition was eventually granted the CA&E
                immediately ceased operations to get any and all equipment off the lines and back to Wheaton because
                for all intents and purposes, they were no longer a common carrier and could not legally transport passenger. It's sad that they left their passengers stranded but looking at from managements perspective
                trying to accomodate riders at this point could have put them a not so nice legal bind.
                 
                Mario Mims
                marionm122@...
              • gauge18rr
                Once again, I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 26, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Once again,
                  I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                  I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                  This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                  O.
                • Scott Greig
                  I think the biggest issue for the CA&E, at 12:00:01 on July 3, 1957, was not so much that they were no longer a common carrier, but that they wanted to get out
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 26, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think the biggest issue for the CA&E, at 12:00:01 on July 3, 1957, was not so much that they were no longer a common carrier, but that they wanted to get out of the passenger business. 

                    The injunction expired at noon, and at one second after they were out from under outside control forcing them to provide service.  Therefore, they acted as quickly as possible before some other judge could order them to continue it.  They got the orders out at 12:13pm that day, and by about 2pm (when the last passenger trains had been annulled at Wheaton or ordered to return extra from Forest Park), I suspect there was a big sigh of relief in the Wheaton offices.

                    Fourteen years ago I had the chance opportunity of meeting a former CA&E motorman out at IRM.  (Next to the 431, appropriately!)  He said that the suspension occurred on (going from memory here) a Wednesday, and by the end of that week they had canned almost their entire operating department.  He said that the CA&E never had any reunions because everybody was PO'd at being fired and went their separate ways.

                    --- On Sat, 9/26/09, marionm122@... <marionm122@...> wrote:

                    From: marionm122@... <marionm122@...>
                    Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                    To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 1:33 PM



                    Those two cemented-over portals that you see at the entrance to the Blue Line Subway at Halsted Street
                    were provided during construction with the thought of some how providing accomodations for the Chicago
                    Aurora & Elgin to resume service into Chicago once the construction was finished.
                    You will also note that the there vacant land next to the westbound CTA track that have been used to
                    build a second set of tracks for east and west operations for the CA&E but the railroad was rapidly losing
                    passengers and money and as mentioned earlier the State of Illinois has no interest in providing a subsidy
                    for the CA&E and the CTA couldn't afford to purchase and maintain it so the Aurora Corporation figured it
                    was in THEIR best interests to petition the I.C.C. for abandonment and sell the assets for it's salvage value
                    and this is exactly what they did. And when the abandonment petition was eventually granted the CA&E
                    immediately ceased operations to get any and all equipment off the lines and back to Wheaton because
                    for all intents and purposes, they were no longer a common carrier and could not legally transport passenger. It's sad that they left their passengers stranded but looking at from managements perspective
                    trying to accomodate riders at this point could have put them a not so nice legal bind.
                     
                    Mario Mims
                    marionm122@...


                  • Larry M
                    There is one additional issue that has not been discussed and that concerns the cars.  Except for the 10 postwar cars the bulk of their steel equipment dated
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 26, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      There is one additional issue that has not been discussed and that concerns the cars.  Except for the 10 postwar cars the bulk of their steel equipment dated back to the 1920's.  Let's not even discuss the wooden cars.  Granted they were well taken care of sooner or later replacement would have been mandatory.  There were no federal programs at that time that could have allowed both the CA&E as well as the NSL to afford buying up to date and air conditioned cars.  On a practical basis rather than an emotional basis you had neighboring CNW, and CBQ on the CA&E as well as the CNW and Milwaukee Road competing with the North Shore Line.  Even without the rubber tire mentality at that time what chance did either carrier have of updating their passenger cars without some kind of subsidy?  Neither carrier was capable of supporting passenger service with their meager freight revenues especially the CA&E.  Cutting service back to Forest Park no doubt hastened the end of passenger service but I find it somewhat doubtful that that service could have continued with the tracks in the median on the freeway without new cars for any substantial length of time. 
                       

                      --- On Sat, 9/26/09, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...> wrote:

                      From: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...>
                      Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                      To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 10:47 PM

                       
                      I think the biggest issue for the CA&E, at 12:00:01 on July 3, 1957, was not so much that they were no longer a common carrier, but that they wanted to get out of the passenger business. 

                      The injunction expired at noon, and at one second after they were out from under outside control forcing them to provide service.  Therefore, they acted as quickly as possible before some other judge could order them to continue it.  They got the orders out at 12:13pm that day, and by about 2pm (when the last passenger trains had been annulled at Wheaton or ordered to return extra from Forest Park), I suspect there was a big sigh of relief in the Wheaton offices.

                      Fourteen years ago I had the chance opportunity of meeting a former CA&E motorman out at IRM.  (Next to the 431, appropriately! )  He said that the suspension occurred on (going from memory here) a Wednesday, and by the end of that week they had canned almost their entire operating department.  He said that the CA&E never had any reunions because everybody was PO'd at being fired and went their separate ways.

                      --- On Sat, 9/26/09, marionm122@aol. com <marionm122@aol. com> wrote:

                      From: marionm122@aol. com <marionm122@aol. com>
                      Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                      To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 1:33 PM



                      Those two cemented-over portals that you see at the entrance to the Blue Line Subway at Halsted Street
                      were provided during construction with the thought of some how providing accomodations for the Chicago
                      Aurora & Elgin to resume service into Chicago once the construction was finished.
                      You will also note that the there vacant land next to the westbound CTA track that have been used to
                      build a second set of tracks for east and west operations for the CA&E but the railroad was rapidly losing
                      passengers and money and as mentioned earlier the State of Illinois has no interest in providing a subsidy
                      for the CA&E and the CTA couldn't afford to purchase and maintain it so the Aurora Corporation figured it
                      was in THEIR best interests to petition the I.C.C. for abandonment and sell the assets for it's salvage value
                      and this is exactly what they did. And when the abandonment petition was eventually granted the CA&E
                      immediately ceased operations to get any and all equipment off the lines and back to Wheaton because
                      for all intents and purposes, they were no longer a common carrier and could not legally transport passenger. It's sad that they left their passengers stranded but looking at from managements perspective
                      trying to accomodate riders at this point could have put them a not so nice legal bind.
                       
                      Mario Mims
                      marionm122@aol. com



                    • chicagoutopia
                      The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, The
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 27, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment

                        The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."

                        In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.

                        Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.

                        The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 

                        The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.

                        The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.

                        In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.

                        Ed

                         --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "gauge18rr" <olanderson@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Once again,
                        > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                        > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                        > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                        > O.
                        >

                      • Larry M
                        THis almost sounds like the plan in the 1970 s to tear down the loop in stages.  I do have the finsihed plan on ChicagoTransit that I copied from the City of
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 27, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          THis almost sounds like the plan in the 1970's to tear down the loop in stages.  I do have the finsihed plan on ChicagoTransit that I copied from the City of Chicago publication that had a page by page step of the track plans from the beginning to the final product.  Monroe would have had a subway that would have gone to McCormick Place on the south and a branch heading to Hancock. Its southern terminal would have been at UIC.   Franklin would have been a double deck subway with one level for southbound, the other for notrhbound.  Yes, it would have gone to the Dan Ryan.  The finished plan is in the picture section of ChicagoTransit.  To scan each page would be time consuming because the pages are probably over legal size.  The present system:: State and Dearborn subways would have remained unchanged.  At least one new building on Wabash near Adams even had plans to have an entrance to the never built subway station at that location.
                           
                          For those interested I can try to reply after I return from Boston around the 15 October.
                           
                          Larry
                          Moderator
                          ChicagoTransit

                          --- On Sun, 9/27/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:

                          From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
                          Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                          To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 12:09 PM

                           
                          The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                          In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                          Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                          The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 
                          The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                          The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
                          In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                          Ed
                           --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" <olanderson@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > Once again,
                          > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                          > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                          > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                          > O.
                          >

                        • chicagoutopia
                          You are correct. As I was recently reading the New Horizons booklet, I started to get the impression that many of the projects near the Central Business
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 28, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment

                            You are correct. As I was recently reading the New Horizons booklet, I started to get the impression that many of the projects near the Central Business District were to divert current (1958) rapid transit routes away from the Union Loop.

                            Back then there was a definate anti-Union Loop sentiment coming from the political leadership of Chicago and the CTA. At the same time there was positive feelings for center of expressway rapid transit routes. Everything in the form of rapid transit in Chicago was to be subways and routes in the center of expressways.

                            Ed

                            --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, Larry M <minnman554212000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > THis almost sounds like the plan in the 1970's to tear down the loop in stages.  I do have the finsihed plan on ChicagoTransit that I copied from the City of Chicago publication that had a page by page step of the track plans from the beginning to the final product.  Monroe would have had a subway that would have gone to McCormick Place on the south and a branch heading to Hancock. Its southern terminal would have been at UIC.   Franklin would have been a double deck subway with one level for southbound, the other for notrhbound.  Yes, it would have gone to the Dan Ryan.  The finished plan is in the picture section of ChicagoTransit.  To scan each page would be time consuming because the pages are probably over legal size.  The present system:: State and Dearborn subways would have remained unchanged.  At least one new building on Wabash near Adams even had plans to have an entrance to the never built subway station at that location.
                            >  
                            > For those interested I can try to reply after I return from Boston around the 15 October.
                            >  
                            > Larry
                            > Moderator
                            > ChicagoTransit
                            >
                            > --- On Sun, 9/27/09, chicagoutopia lkh604@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: chicagoutopia lkh604@...
                            > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                            > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 12:09 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                            > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                            > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                            > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 
                            > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                            > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
                            > In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                            > Ed
                            >
                            >  --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" olanderson@ ..> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Once again,
                            > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                            > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                            > > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                            > > O.
                            > >
                            >

                          • Scott Greig
                            The Loop was viewed as obsolete and dowdy by Daley, and he wanted to modernize downtown Chicago in the worst way when he came to power. ... From: chicagoutopia
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 28, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The Loop was viewed as obsolete and dowdy by Daley, and he wanted to modernize downtown Chicago in the worst way when he came to power.

                              --- On Mon, 9/28/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:

                              From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
                              Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                              To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 8:16 AM



                              You are correct. As I was recently reading the New Horizons booklet, I started to get the impression that many of the projects near the Central Business District were to divert current (1958) rapid transit routes away from the Union Loop.
                              Back then there was a definate anti-Union Loop sentiment coming from the political leadership of Chicago and the CTA. At the same time there was positive feelings for center of expressway rapid transit routes. Everything in the form of rapid transit in Chicago was to be subways and routes in the center of expressways.
                              Ed
                              --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, Larry M <minnman554212000@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > THis almost sounds like the plan in the 1970's to tear down the loop in stages.  I do have the finsihed plan on ChicagoTransit that I copied from the City of Chicago publication that had a page by page step of the track plans from the beginning to the final product.  Monroe would have had a subway that would have gone to McCormick Place on the south and a branch heading to Hancock. Its southern terminal would have been at UIC.   Franklin would have been a double deck subway with one level for southbound, the other for notrhbound.  Yes, it would have gone to the Dan Ryan.  The finished plan is in the picture section of ChicagoTransit.  To scan each page would be time consuming because the pages are probably over legal size.  The present system:: State and Dearborn subways would have remained unchanged.  At least one new building on Wabash near Adams even had plans to have an entrance to the never built subway station at that location.
                              >  
                              > For those interested I can try to reply after I return from Boston around the 15 October.
                              >  
                              > Larry
                              > Moderator
                              > ChicagoTransit
                              >
                              > --- On Sun, 9/27/09, chicagoutopia lkh604@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: chicagoutopia lkh604@...
                              > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                              > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 12:09 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                              > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                              > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                              > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 
                              > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                              > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
                              > In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                              > Ed
                              >
                              >  --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" olanderson@ ..> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Once again,
                              > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                              > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                              > > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                              > > O.
                              > >
                              >


                            • David T. Koyzis
                              So we can conclude that the building of the expressways at the expense of the railways was a particularly egregious example of modernizing in the worst way.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 28, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                So we can conclude that the building of the expressways at the expense of the railways was a particularly egregious example of modernizing in the worst way. :-)

                                David


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1@...>
                                To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, September 28, 2009 9:59:11 AM
                                Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

                                 

                                The Loop was viewed as obsolete and dowdy by Daley, and he wanted to modernize downtown Chicago in the worst way when he came to power.

                                --- On Mon, 9/28/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:

                                From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
                                Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Monday, September 28, 2009, 8:16 AM



                                You are correct. As I was recently reading the New Horizons booklet, I started to get the impression that many of the projects near the Central Business District were to divert current (1958) rapid transit routes away from the Union Loop.
                                Back then there was a definate anti-Union Loop sentiment coming from the political leadership of Chicago and the CTA. At the same time there was positive feelings for center of expressway rapid transit routes. Everything in the form of rapid transit in Chicago was to be subways and routes in the center of expressways.
                                Ed
                                --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, Larry M <minnman554212000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > THis almost sounds like the plan in the 1970's to tear down the loop in stages.  I do have the finsihed plan on ChicagoTransit that I copied from the City of Chicago publication that had a page by page step of the track plans from the beginning to the final product.  Monroe would have had a subway that would have gone to McCormick Place on the south and a branch heading to Hancock. Its southern terminal would have been at UIC.   Franklin would have been a double deck subway with one level for southbound, the other for notrhbound.  Yes, it would have gone to the Dan Ryan.  The finished plan is in the picture section of ChicagoTransit.  To scan each page would be time consuming because the pages are probably over legal size.  The present system:: State and Dearborn subways would have remained unchanged.  At least one new building on Wabash near Adams even had plans to have an entrance to the never built subway station at that location.
                                >  
                                > For those interested I can try to reply after I return from Boston around the 15 October.
                                >  
                                > Larry
                                > Moderator
                                > ChicagoTransit
                                >
                                > --- On Sun, 9/27/09, chicagoutopia lkh604@... wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > From: chicagoutopia lkh604@...
                                > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 12:09 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                                > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                                > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                                > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 
                                > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                                > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
                                > In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                                > Ed
                                >
                                >  --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" olanderson@ ..> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Once again,
                                > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                                > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                                > > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                > > O.
                                > >
                                >


                              • c.burnstein@insightbb.com
                                I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting and enlightening with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date. I d like to add that if the
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 30, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting and enlightening with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date. I'd like to add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown Chicago thru a subway, only the steel cars could have used it because of a city ordnance against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire hazard.  
                                  Cliff B.
                                     
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
                                  Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

                                   

                                  The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."

                                  In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.

                                  Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.

                                  The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 

                                  The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.

                                  The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.

                                  In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.

                                  Ed

                                   --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" <olanderson@. ..> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Once again,
                                  > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                                  > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                                  > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                  > O.
                                  >

                                • Larry M
                                  The railroad had steel cars in the 400 series including the 450 series which were ordered in 1941 but delayed due to the war and were delivered in 1945 marking
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 30, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The railroad had steel cars in the 400 series including the 450 series which were ordered in 1941 but delayed due to the war and were delivered in 1945 marking the last traditional interurban car in the United States.  Obviously more steel cars would be needed if there was going to be the same level of service as prior to the 1953 discontinuance of service to the loop.  You are correct that wooden cars would not be permitted as was the practice in Chicago as well as other properties that had subways at that time.
                                     
                                    The other question is if this were to happen where would the cars terminate.  The 1970 City of Chicago plan to tear the loop down for a subway system does have a connecting track between Lake and Randolph (which would have been the western leg of the proposed West-South Line that would have run in the Ryan as it did subsequently) but with this connection might it have been possible to make use of an expanded Harlem yard or even have a system comparable to the NSL at 12th using the then center track east of Pulaski?  I do hope to have the plans copied and put on one of the Chicago websites with their original size.  There are 18 detailed pages of this stillborn project.
                                     
                                    Larry

                                    --- On Wed, 9/30/09, c.burnstein@... <c.burnstein@...> wrote:

                                    From: c.burnstein@... <c.burnstein@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                    To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 6:56 PM

                                     
                                    I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting and enlightening with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date. I'd like to add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown Chicago thru a subway, only the steel cars could have used it because of a city ordnance against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire hazard.  
                                    Cliff B.
                                       
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
                                    Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes

                                     
                                    The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication states, "The Jackson  . . .  Subway would connect with the new West Side Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                                    In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L" south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway.  Once connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L" would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                                    Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal.  Two of the subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                                    The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel entrances. 
                                    The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress Expressway tracks was already in the works.  The New Horizons booklet does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use.  The CA&E also would have to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                                    The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New Horizons booklet.  It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District. There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
                                    In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District, upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                                    Ed
                                     --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com, "gauge18rr" <olanderson@. ..> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Once again,
                                    > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that stop.
                                    > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning process.
                                    > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                    > O.
                                    >

                                  • chicagoutopia
                                    The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were built is to look at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were built is to look
                                      at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street Subway and
                                      the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.

                                      Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning". Many old
                                      photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been tossed into
                                      the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many old items
                                      are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original proposals for
                                      the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt
                                      Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?

                                      Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the proposals for the
                                      Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route?
                                      This has to be material that you can actually put your hands on and not
                                      something you think you may have seen or were told about second hand.

                                      Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east of the
                                      UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios of how they
                                      could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of the
                                      Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.

                                      I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly stopped running
                                      and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3 blocks from
                                      where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to run. Perhaps this is
                                      the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.

                                      Ed


                                      --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, <c.burnstein@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting and enlightening
                                      with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date. I'd like to
                                      add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown Chicago thru a subway,
                                      only the steel cars could have used it because of a city ordnance
                                      against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire hazard.
                                      > Cliff B.
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: chicagoutopia
                                      > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
                                      > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E
                                      changing tunes
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan Area released by
                                      the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The publication
                                      states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the new West Side
                                      Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central Business
                                      District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                                      >
                                      > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20 other transit
                                      projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the "Lake Street
                                      Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the Lake St. "L"
                                      south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress Expressway. Once
                                      connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the Lake St. "L"
                                      would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                                      >
                                      > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any specific comments
                                      it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the Expressway to use the
                                      Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two of the
                                      subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be used for the
                                      Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
                                      Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                                      >
                                      > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted stations and the
                                      east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set aside to switch
                                      the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway tunnel
                                      entrances.
                                      >
                                      > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect with the Congress
                                      Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New Horizons booklet
                                      does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not want the CA&E on
                                      its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not enter into an
                                      agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The CA&E also would have
                                      to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                                      >
                                      > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up in the New
                                      Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median strip rapid
                                      transit in the South Expressway south of the Central Business District.
                                      There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway mentioned.
                                      >
                                      > In more recent times, over the years there has been talk about a light
                                      rail system to connect Union Station with the Central Business District,
                                      upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use existing
                                      vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                                      >
                                      > Ed
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "gauge18rr" olanderson@
                                      wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Once again,
                                      > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of Subways and
                                      Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through, which showed a
                                      route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a separate
                                      tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and went north to
                                      Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the final iteration
                                      of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal. Storage tracks were
                                      placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but generally the
                                      CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of the CTA for that
                                      stop.
                                      > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am sorry that is not
                                      the case. When I google about it, I find the City of Chicago public
                                      library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they were an
                                      edition which included all the changes that occurred during the planning
                                      process.
                                      > > This is an important part of the story of the CA&E which has not
                                      been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                      > > O.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Scott Greig
                                      Between Engineering s move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Between Engineering's move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years ago, a LOT of stuff was pitched.

                                        Lord knows I was doing a lot of dumpster-diving in the halls at the Mart.....

                                        --- On Thu, 10/1/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:

                                        > From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
                                        > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                        > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:50 AM
                                        >
                                        > The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were
                                        > built is to look
                                        > at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street
                                        > Subway and
                                        > the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.
                                        >
                                        > Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning".
                                        > Many old
                                        > photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been
                                        > tossed into
                                        > the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many
                                        > old items
                                        > are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original
                                        > proposals for
                                        > the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway
                                        > Rapid Transt
                                        > Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?
                                        >
                                        > Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the
                                        > proposals  for the
                                        > Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid
                                        > Transt Route?
                                        > This has to be material that you can actually put your
                                        > hands on and not
                                        > something you think you may have seen or were told about
                                        > second hand.
                                        >
                                        > Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east
                                        > of the
                                        > UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios
                                        > of how they
                                        > could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of
                                        > the
                                        > Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.
                                        >
                                        > I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly
                                        > stopped running
                                        > and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3
                                        > blocks from
                                        > where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to
                                        > run. Perhaps this is
                                        > the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.
                                        >
                                        > Ed
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
                                        > <c.burnstein@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting
                                        > and enlightening
                                        > with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date.
                                        > I'd like to
                                        > add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown
                                        > Chicago thru a subway,
                                        > only the steel cars could have used it because of a city
                                        > ordnance
                                        > against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire
                                        > hazard.
                                        > > Cliff B.
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: chicagoutopia
                                        > > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
                                        > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the
                                        > Congress and the CA&E
                                        > changing tunes
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan
                                        > Area released by
                                        > the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The
                                        > publication
                                        > states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the
                                        > new West Side
                                        > Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central
                                        > Business
                                        > District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                                        > >
                                        > > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20
                                        > other transit
                                        > projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the
                                        > "Lake Street
                                        > Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the
                                        > Lake St. "L"
                                        > south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress
                                        > Expressway. Once
                                        > connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the
                                        > Lake St. "L"
                                        > would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                                        > >
                                        > > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any
                                        > specific comments
                                        > it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the
                                        > Expressway to use the
                                        > Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two
                                        > of the
                                        > subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be
                                        > used for the
                                        > Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
                                        > Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                                        > >
                                        > > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted
                                        > stations and the
                                        > east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set
                                        > aside to switch
                                        > the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway
                                        > tunnel
                                        > entrances.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect
                                        > with the Congress
                                        > Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New
                                        > Horizons booklet
                                        > does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not
                                        > want the CA&E on
                                        > its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not
                                        > enter into an
                                        > agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The
                                        > CA&E also would have
                                        > to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up
                                        > in the New
                                        > Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median
                                        > strip rapid
                                        > transit in the South Expressway south of the Central
                                        > Business District.
                                        > There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway
                                        > mentioned.
                                        > >
                                        > > In more recent times, over the years there has been
                                        > talk about a light
                                        > rail system to connect Union Station with the Central
                                        > Business District,
                                        > upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use
                                        > existing
                                        > vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                                        > >
                                        > > Ed
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
                                        > "gauge18rr" olanderson@
                                        > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Once again,
                                        > > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of
                                        > Subways and
                                        > Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through,
                                        > which showed a
                                        > route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a
                                        > separate
                                        > tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and
                                        > went north to
                                        > Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the
                                        > final iteration
                                        > of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal.
                                        > Storage tracks were
                                        > placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but
                                        > generally the
                                        > CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of
                                        > the CTA for that
                                        > stop.
                                        > > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am
                                        > sorry that is not
                                        > the case. When I google about it, I find the City of
                                        > Chicago public
                                        > library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they
                                        > were an
                                        > edition which included all the changes that occurred during
                                        > the planning
                                        > process.
                                        > > > This is an important part of the story of the
                                        > CA&E which has not
                                        > been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                        > > > O.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >     mailto:thegreatthirdrail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • gauge18rr
                                        The copy I found was at CATS while I worked there. When I went to find it again to photocopy pages, it was missing, perhaps sitting on some official s
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          The copy I found was at CATS while I worked there. When I went to find it again to photocopy pages, it was missing, perhaps sitting on some official's bookshelf. I found out it originally had come from a IL DOT office when it was located in the loop, and was indeed acquired as they were tossing stuff out (1980s?). There are other copies around.
                                          See here:
                                          http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/20767862

                                          I can't find the link now but I believe there is a copy also in the Harold Washington Library. The original was held together with screw-mounts and had pages which were updated at different dates. The most recent being around 1947 or 49 if I recall correctly.

                                          There were other interesting diagrams in the plan, such as all the express tracks for the CA&E, an L terminal inside of the junction of the Kennedy and Edens expressways where a power plant has been located for many years, an elevated busway inside the median of the Stevenson Expressway, and lower Congress Drive which extended from Franklin St to Buckingham fountain. The latter occurred by a double spiral (where now there is a single loop interchange, and by portals north and south of Buckingham Fountain. I think these portals may have been actually constructed when the park was developed. Lower Wacker Drive was part of the plan.

                                          O.

                                          --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Between Engineering's move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years ago, a LOT of stuff was pitched.
                                          >
                                          > Lord knows I was doing a lot of dumpster-diving in the halls at the Mart.....
                                          >
                                          > --- On Thu, 10/1/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@...>
                                          > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                          > > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:50 AM
                                          > >
                                          > > The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were
                                          > > built is to look
                                          > > at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street
                                          > > Subway and
                                          > > the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.
                                          > >
                                          > > Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning".
                                          > > Many old
                                          > > photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been
                                          > > tossed into
                                          > > the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many
                                          > > old items
                                          > > are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original
                                          > > proposals for
                                          > > the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway
                                          > > Rapid Transt
                                          > > Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?
                                          > >
                                          > > Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the
                                          > > proposals  for the
                                          > > Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid
                                          > > Transt Route?
                                          > > This has to be material that you can actually put your
                                          > > hands on and not
                                          > > something you think you may have seen or were told about
                                          > > second hand.
                                          > >
                                          > > Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east
                                          > > of the
                                          > > UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios
                                          > > of how they
                                          > > could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of
                                          > > the
                                          > > Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.
                                          > >
                                          > > I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly
                                          > > stopped running
                                          > > and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3
                                          > > blocks from
                                          > > where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to
                                          > > run. Perhaps this is
                                          > > the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.
                                          > >
                                          > > Ed
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
                                          > > <c.burnstein@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting
                                          > > and enlightening
                                          > > with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date.
                                          > > I'd like to
                                          > > add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown
                                          > > Chicago thru a subway,
                                          > > only the steel cars could have used it because of a city
                                          > > ordnance
                                          > > against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire
                                          > > hazard.
                                          > > > Cliff B.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > From: chicagoutopia
                                          > > > To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
                                          > > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the
                                          > > Congress and the CA&E
                                          > > changing tunes
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan
                                          > > Area released by
                                          > > the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The
                                          > > publication
                                          > > states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the
                                          > > new West Side
                                          > > Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central
                                          > > Business
                                          > > District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20
                                          > > other transit
                                          > > projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the
                                          > > "Lake Street
                                          > > Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the
                                          > > Lake St. "L"
                                          > > south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress
                                          > > Expressway. Once
                                          > > connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the
                                          > > Lake St. "L"
                                          > > would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any
                                          > > specific comments
                                          > > it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the
                                          > > Expressway to use the
                                          > > Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two
                                          > > of the
                                          > > subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be
                                          > > used for the
                                          > > Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
                                          > > Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted
                                          > > stations and the
                                          > > east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set
                                          > > aside to switch
                                          > > the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway
                                          > > tunnel
                                          > > entrances.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect
                                          > > with the Congress
                                          > > Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New
                                          > > Horizons booklet
                                          > > does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not
                                          > > want the CA&E on
                                          > > its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not
                                          > > enter into an
                                          > > agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The
                                          > > CA&E also would have
                                          > > to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up
                                          > > in the New
                                          > > Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median
                                          > > strip rapid
                                          > > transit in the South Expressway south of the Central
                                          > > Business District.
                                          > > There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway
                                          > > mentioned.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > In more recent times, over the years there has been
                                          > > talk about a light
                                          > > rail system to connect Union Station with the Central
                                          > > Business District,
                                          > > upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use
                                          > > existing
                                          > > vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Ed
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com,
                                          > > "gauge18rr" olanderson@
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Once again,
                                          > > > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of
                                          > > Subways and
                                          > > Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through,
                                          > > which showed a
                                          > > route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a
                                          > > separate
                                          > > tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and
                                          > > went north to
                                          > > Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the
                                          > > final iteration
                                          > > of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal.
                                          > > Storage tracks were
                                          > > placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but
                                          > > generally the
                                          > > CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of
                                          > > the CTA for that
                                          > > stop.
                                          > > > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am
                                          > > sorry that is not
                                          > > the case. When I google about it, I find the City of
                                          > > Chicago public
                                          > > library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they
                                          > > were an
                                          > > edition which included all the changes that occurred during
                                          > > the planning
                                          > > process.
                                          > > > > This is an important part of the story of the
                                          > > CA&E which has not
                                          > > been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                          > > > > O.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >     mailto:thegreatthirdrail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Larry M
                                          I was lucky enough to be doing some help in Customer Service when my manager went on a clean up drive.  I have stuff with projects and material that are quite
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 1, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I was lucky enough to be doing some help in Customer Service when my manager went on a clean up drive.  I have stuff with projects and material that are quite interesting. Back then it was typewriters and mimeo machines - none of this fancy new computer stuff!  I still have quite a bit of the material including annual reports and the like.  It pays to be in the right place at the right time.  I did not have to dive into dumpsters either!
                                             
                                            Larry

                                            --- On Thu, 10/1/09, Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...> wrote:

                                            From: Scott Greig <sbgreig_m1@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                            To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 12:05 PM

                                             
                                            Between Engineering' s move out of the Mart to 120 Racine in the 90s, their move from 120 Racine to W. Lake, and the general move out of the Mart five years ago, a LOT of stuff was pitched.

                                            Lord knows I was doing a lot of dumpster-diving in the halls at the Mart.....

                                            --- On Thu, 10/1/09, chicagoutopia <lkh604@comcast. net> wrote:

                                            > From: chicagoutopia <lkh604@comcast. net>
                                            > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the Congress and the CA&E changing tunes
                                            > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 10:50 AM
                                            >
                                            > The only way to find out why the 4 subway portals were
                                            > built is to look
                                            > at the original plans and proposals for the Dearborn Street
                                            > Subway and
                                            > the Congress Expressway Rapid Transt Route.
                                            >
                                            > Over the past few years the CTA has been "house cleaning".
                                            > Many old
                                            > photos, plans, proposals, drawings, signage, etc. has been
                                            > tossed into
                                            > the trash. Unless a CTA employee went dumpster diving, many
                                            > old items
                                            > are lost forever! I don't know if the CTA has the original
                                            > proposals for
                                            > the Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway
                                            > Rapid Transt
                                            > Route. Perhaps the City of Chicago has copies; but where?
                                            >
                                            > Does anyone have a copy of and/or access to the
                                            > proposals  for the
                                            > Dearborn Street Subway and the Congress Expressway Rapid
                                            > Transt Route?
                                            > This has to be material that you can actually put your
                                            > hands on and not
                                            > something you think you may have seen or were told about
                                            > second hand.
                                            >
                                            > Over the years I've wondered about the extra 2 portals east
                                            > of the
                                            > UIC-Halsted Station. I've dreamed many different scenarios
                                            > of how they
                                            > could have been used, I've also wondered why the median of
                                            > the
                                            > Expressway is a wide as it in in certain spots.
                                            >
                                            > I was a teenager during the time when the CA&E abtuptly
                                            > stopped running
                                            > and Congressway Rapid Transit line was opened. I now live 3
                                            > blocks from
                                            > where the CA&E once ran. I wish it had continued to
                                            > run. Perhaps this is
                                            > the reason I have O scale models of the CA&E.
                                            >
                                            > Ed
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com,
                                            > <c.burnstein@ ...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I have really enjoyed this thread. Very interesting
                                            > and enlightening
                                            > with excellent insights. Thanx to all contributors to date.
                                            > I'd like to
                                            > add that if the CA&E did gain access to downtown
                                            > Chicago thru a subway,
                                            > only the steel cars could have used it because of a city
                                            > ordnance
                                            > against woods in subways and streetcar tunnels, as a fire
                                            > hazard.
                                            > > Cliff B.
                                            > >
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: chicagoutopia
                                            > > To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
                                            > > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:09 PM
                                            > > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Progress on the
                                            > Congress and the CA&E
                                            > changing tunes
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > The publication New Horizons for Chicago Metropolitan
                                            > Area released by
                                            > the CTA in 1958 talks about a Jackson Boulevard Subway. The
                                            > publication
                                            > states, "The Jackson . . . Subway would connect with the
                                            > new West Side
                                            > Subway near Halsted Street and extend across the Central
                                            > Business
                                            > District to a terminal loop in Grant Park."
                                            > >
                                            > > In this same publication are mentioned at least 20
                                            > other transit
                                            > projects involving the CTA. One of the projects was the
                                            > "Lake Street
                                            > Routing via West Side Subway" This project would route the
                                            > Lake St. "L"
                                            > south on the Belt Railroad tracks to the Congress
                                            > Expressway. Once
                                            > connected to the tracks in the Congress Expressway, the
                                            > Lake St. "L"
                                            > would proceed east to the Central Business District.
                                            > >
                                            > > Although the New Horizons booklet does not make any
                                            > specific comments
                                            > it would make sense for the Lake St. Route in the
                                            > Expressway to use the
                                            > Jackson Boulevard Subway to reach its eastern terminal. Two
                                            > of the
                                            > subway portals east of the UIC-Halsted station were to be
                                            > used for the
                                            > Jackson Boulevard Subway and 2 of the portals were for the
                                            > Congress-Dearborn Subway.
                                            > >
                                            > > The land area between the Racine and the UIC-Halsted
                                            > stations and the
                                            > east and west lanes of the expressway was probably set
                                            > aside to switch
                                            > the Lake and Congress trains into their respective subway
                                            > tunnel
                                            > entrances.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Dearborn Street Subway and its route to connect
                                            > with the Congress
                                            > Expressway tracks was already in the works. The New
                                            > Horizons booklet
                                            > does not make any mention of the CA&E. The CTA did not
                                            > want the CA&E on
                                            > its tracks. This is one of the reasons the CTA would not
                                            > enter into an
                                            > agreement with the CA&E for joint trackage use. The
                                            > CA&E also would have
                                            > to pay for any track or terminal in Chicago.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Wells Street Subway is another project written up
                                            > in the New
                                            > Horizons booklet. It was to connect with a proposed median
                                            > strip rapid
                                            > transit in the South Expressway south of the Central
                                            > Business District.
                                            > There are no other connections of the Wells St. Subway
                                            > mentioned.
                                            > >
                                            > > In more recent times, over the years there has been
                                            > talk about a light
                                            > rail system to connect Union Station with the Central
                                            > Business District,
                                            > upper Michigan Avenue, and Navy Pier. This system would use
                                            > existing
                                            > vacant land near or under the proposed areas.
                                            > >
                                            > > Ed
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com,
                                            > "gauge18rr" olanderson@
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Once again,
                                            > > > I will say that I saw plans of the Department of
                                            > Subways and
                                            > Superhighways, which was updated as changes came through,
                                            > which showed a
                                            > route from the pair of Halsted dummy portals that led to a
                                            > separate
                                            > tunnel. This routed under either Clinton or Canal St. and
                                            > went north to
                                            > Lake to turn back towards the loop. I think this was the
                                            > final iteration
                                            > of plans that was developed for the CA&E terminal.
                                            > Storage tracks were
                                            > placed in the Halsted St. area within the freeway, but
                                            > generally the
                                            > CA&E trains would have had their own platform north of
                                            > the CTA for that
                                            > stop.
                                            > > > I wish I had made copies of those plans but I am
                                            > sorry that is not
                                            > the case. When I google about it, I find the City of
                                            > Chicago public
                                            > library has a copy of the plans, but I don't know if they
                                            > were an
                                            > edition which included all the changes that occurred during
                                            > the planning
                                            > process.
                                            > > > This is an important part of the story of the
                                            > CA&E which has not
                                            > been published in any books, as far as I can tell.
                                            > > > O.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >     mailto:thegreatthirdrail- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


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