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Re: [thegreatthirdrail] CA&E Step Box

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  • seth bramson
    ... From: Randall Hicks To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:27 PM Subject:
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 3, 2008
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Randall Hicks" <randallhicks@...>
      To: <thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:27 PM
      Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] CA&E Step Box


      > Does anyone have an authentic CA&E step box? If so, how would you
      > like to post a picture or two, along with some measurements - height,
      > width, and length would be enough. Thanks!

      >>>Randall and friends:

      Were there actual marked CA&E step boxes?

      Something like that would be in the realm of finding CA&E, CSS&SB, Pac
      Electric, Stark Electric, Milw Electric, TCRT, UT Co of Indiana, Indiana
      Public Service, Pac NW Trac or marked Illinois Terminal dining car items
      other than menus!
    • Scott Greig
      I ve seen exactly two TMER&L marked dining car items (both silver pieces), and never a menu outside of pictures! Do we even know that the CA&E used step boxes?
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 3, 2008
        I've seen exactly two TMER&L marked dining car items
        (both silver pieces), and never a menu outside of
        pictures!

        Do we even know that the CA&E used step boxes? I
        tried for years to find out if sister company CNS&M
        ever used step boxes; my final conclusion was that
        they did not.

        --- seth bramson <sbramson@...> wrote:

        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Randall Hicks"
        > <randallhicks@...>
        > To: <thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:27 PM
        > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] CA&E Step Box
        >
        >
        > > Does anyone have an authentic CA&E step box? If
        > so, how would you
        > > like to post a picture or two, along with some
        > measurements - height,
        > > width, and length would be enough. Thanks!
        >
        > >>>Randall and friends:
        >
        > Were there actual marked CA&E step boxes?
        >
        > Something like that would be in the realm of finding
        > CA&E, CSS&SB, Pac
        > Electric, Stark Electric, Milw Electric, TCRT, UT Co
        > of Indiana, Indiana
        > Public Service, Pac NW Trac or marked Illinois
        > Terminal dining car items
        > other than menus!
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > (Yahoo! ID required)
        >
        >
        mailto:thegreatthirdrail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
      • seth bramson
        ... From: Scott Greig Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] CA&E Step Box
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Scott Greig" <sbgreig_m1@...>
          Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] CA&E Step Box


          > I've seen exactly two TMER&L marked dining car items
          > (both silver pieces), and never a menu outside of
          > pictures!

          >>>Indeed, dining car items from TM are extraordinarily rare, since the
          >>>service lasted, at most, about three years. Ditto for the CA&E and the
          >>>SSL. I do have a SSL menu and a TCRT menu from one of their parks. They
          >>>did not have dining service but operated two parks and managed the dining
          >>>operations there complete with, at the least, TCRT menus. I have
          >>>several IT menus and one beautiful piece of IT linen as well as two
          >>>pieces of UT Co of IN flatware and one IPS piece, but I doubt we will
          >>>ever find marked china from those lines, as the records so long gone that
          >>>we don't even know if they used marked pieces.
          >
          > Do we even know that the CA&E used step boxes? I
          > tried for years to find out if sister company CNS&M
          > ever used step boxes; my final conclusion was that
          > they did not.

          >>>I would think they would have had to. CNS&M trains loaded at platform
          >>>level in the loop and, I think, at the Milwaukee terminal but wouldn't
          >>>they, the SSL and the CA&E have had to use them? Obviously, the CA&E
          >>>loaded at platform level on the el, and, I think, at the Aurora terminal
          >>>but otherwise wouldn't they have needed the step boxes?
        • thegreatthirdrail
          No actual proof either way,,, but from a practical/logical point of view I think the evidence would point away from such use. The fast load/unload turn around
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
            No actual proof either way,,, but from a practical/logical point of
            view I think the evidence would point away from such use. The fast
            load/unload turn around times would likely prohibit use of step boxes,
            at least to my opinion.

            I've never seen any photos of step boxes in use on the CA&E or North
            Shore, close scrutiny of photos at terminals, shop areas, etc.
            where "extra" equipment like headlights and all might be stored don't
            seem to show any boxes either.

            Obviously Randy is looking to make a replica box if such boxes ever
            existed,, a corollary question might be, where/are step boxes stock
            catalog type items that might have common dimensions ?

            John
          • seth bramson
            ... From: thegreatthirdrail Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: CA&E Step Box ... Even though I rode the N. S. I can t remember if
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "thegreatthirdrail" <thegreatthirdrail@...>
              Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: CA&E Step Box


              > No actual proof either way,,, but from a practical/logical point of
              > view I think the evidence would point away from such use. The fast
              > load/unload turn around times would likely prohibit use of step boxes,
              > at least to my opinion.
              >
              > I've never seen any photos of step boxes in use on the CA&E or North
              > Shore, close scrutiny of photos at terminals, shop areas, etc.
              > where "extra" equipment like headlights and all might be stored don't
              > seem to show any boxes either.

              >>>Valid points, but an imp't ?: Were the trap door steps low enough and
              >>>close enough to the ground that female passengers and children could take
              >>>one step and be on the car?

              Even though I rode the N. S. I can't remember if step boxes were used.
              >
              > Obviously Randy is looking to make a replica box if such boxes ever
              > existed,, a corollary question might be, where/are step boxes stock
              > catalog type items that might have common dimensions ?

              >>>Several of the railroad supply companies made step boxes. I can't think
              >>>of the names right now, but, if nobody has same on hand I can go the the
              >>>rrdiana@... list and ask them who made step boxes.
            • Lee Wells
              I don t remember any step boxes, either. (But, memory from that long ago isn t totally accurate). However, when wandering around the Wheaton yards after
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008

                I don’t remember any step boxes, either. (But, memory from that long ago isn’t totally accurate).

                 

                However, when wandering around the Wheaton yards after abandonment, you’d think we would have stumbled across some. One per car? One per two cars? Anyway, there would have been a lot, if they existed. Only east Bellwood were the higher platforms, and there would have been no need there… I agree that we would have seen them in the shops (stored) or left in the cars….plus, one conductor for many cars would have made their use difficult.

                 

                lrw

                 

                From: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seth bramson
                Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 7:31 AM
                To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: CA&E Step Box

                 


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "thegreatthirdrail" <thegreatthirdrail@...>
                Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: CA&E Step Box

                > No actual proof either way,,, but from a practical/logical point of
                > view I think the evidence would point away from such use. The fast
                > load/unload turn around times would likely prohibit use of step boxes,
                > at least to my opinion.
                >
                > I've never seen any photos of step boxes in use on the CA&E or North
                > Shore, close scrutiny of photos at terminals, shop areas, etc.
                > where "extra" equipment like headlights and all might be stored don't
                > seem to show any boxes either.

                >>>Valid points, but an imp't ?: Were the trap door steps low enough and
                >>>close enough to the ground that female passengers and children could take
                >>>one step and be on the car?

                Even though I rode the N. S. I can't remember if step boxes were used.
                >
                > Obviously Randy is looking to make a replica box if such boxes ever
                > existed,, a corollary question might be, where/are step boxes stock
                > catalog type items that might have common dimensions ?

                >>>Several of the railroad supply companies made step boxes. I can't think
                >>>of the names right now, but, if nobody has same on hand I can go the the
                >>>rrdiana@... list and ask them who made step boxes.

              • Randall Hicks
                ... No, I m sure you re right. I was thinking of at least one picture in Johnson s book as showing a step box in use, but on closer inspection I was wrong.
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
                  --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Wells" <drlee@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't remember any step boxes, either. (But, memory from that long ago
                  > isn't totally accurate).

                  No, I'm sure you're right. I was thinking of at least one picture in
                  Johnson's book as showing a step box in use, but on closer inspection
                  I was wrong. Sorry to bother everybody - that's sort of embarrassing.
                  But those wood cars sure have the world's worst step design. A lot
                  of our visitors have trouble climbing into the car. Maybe what I
                  really need is a wooden ramp with four steps in place of the two.
                • Joe Stupar
                  I just wanted to comment on something interesting I noticed, with the NSL and CA&E cars, and platforms. Out at IRM, the platform seems very low when making the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
                    I just wanted to comment on something interesting I
                    noticed, with the NSL and CA&E cars, and platforms.
                    Out at IRM, the platform seems very low when making
                    the first step onto the car, but it would seem that
                    the platform could not possibly be any higher, since a
                    lot of 3rd rail shoes will 'ride' on the wooden edge
                    of the platform. Some of us have nicknamed it the
                    wooden 3rd rail. A couple of months ago, I was
                    watching a NSL video which showed a close up of a
                    train coming into Great Lakes in the middle of winter.
                    The 3rd rail shoes were plowing their way through
                    drifts of snow shoveled off the platform. The ground
                    level platforms were outside the clearance zone of the
                    3rd rail shoes, and higher than them. This meant
                    people might have had to extend their foot farther,
                    but that the step could have been a lot lower. This
                    might account for people remembering things
                    differently. Of course, this still doesn't explain the
                    two very steep steps on the wood cars when compared to
                    3 steps on the steels or NSL cars.

                    Joe
                    --- seth bramson <sbramson@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "thegreatthirdrail"
                    > <thegreatthirdrail@...>
                    > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: CA&E Step Box
                    >
                    >
                    > > No actual proof either way,,, but from a
                    > practical/logical point of
                    > > view I think the evidence would point away from
                    > such use. The fast
                    > > load/unload turn around times would likely
                    > prohibit use of step boxes,
                    > > at least to my opinion.
                    > >
                    > > I've never seen any photos of step boxes in use on
                    > the CA&E or North
                    > > Shore, close scrutiny of photos at terminals, shop
                    > areas, etc.
                    > > where "extra" equipment like headlights and all
                    > might be stored don't
                    > > seem to show any boxes either.
                    >
                    > >>>Valid points, but an imp't ?: Were the trap door
                    > steps low enough and
                    > >>>close enough to the ground that female passengers
                    > and children could take
                    > >>>one step and be on the car?
                    >
                    > Even though I rode the N. S. I can't remember if
                    > step boxes were used.
                    > >
                    > > Obviously Randy is looking to make a replica box
                    > if such boxes ever
                    > > existed,, a corollary question might be, where/are
                    > step boxes stock
                    > > catalog type items that might have common
                    > dimensions ?
                    >
                    > >>>Several of the railroad supply companies made
                    > step boxes. I can't think
                    > >>>of the names right now, but, if nobody has same
                    > on hand I can go the the
                    > >>>rrdiana@... list and ask them who made
                    > step boxes.
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > (Yahoo! ID required)
                    >
                    >
                    mailto:thegreatthirdrail-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Ed Halstead
                    Randall, I have a step box that the prior owner told me was from the CSS&SB. It s not marked CSS&SB and is painted silver. It s in the garage. If you want the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
                      Randall, I have a step box that the prior owner told me was from the
                      CSS&SB. It's not marked CSS&SB and is painted silver. It's in the
                      garage. If you want the dimensions I can get them and forward them to
                      you.

                      Ed
                      --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "Randall Hicks"
                      <randallhicks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Does anyone have an authentic CA&E step box? If so, how would you
                      > like to post a picture or two, along with some measurements - height,
                      > width, and length would be enough. Thanks!
                      >
                      > Randall
                      >
                    • Randall Hicks
                      ... That would be great. Thanks! Randall Visit Hicks Car Works! http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008
                        --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Halstead" <lkh604@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Randall, I have a step box that the prior owner told me was from the
                        > CSS&SB. It's not marked CSS&SB and is painted silver. It's in the
                        > garage. If you want the dimensions I can get them and forward them to
                        > you.
                        >
                        > Ed

                        That would be great. Thanks!

                        Randall
                        Visit Hicks Car Works!
                        http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com
                      • David Koyzis
                        Here is an article that will interest members of this group, given the elaborate model railway in the basement of this building: County assures
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 4, 2008

                          Here is an article that will interest members of this group, given the elaborate model railway in the basement of this building: County assures museum is not endangered.

                           

                          David

                        • roygbenedict@juno.com
                          I agree with Scott (below) that the North Shore Line did NOT use step boxes to my knowledge, and I agree with the inference that the CA&E did NOT use step
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 5, 2008
                            I agree with Scott (below) that the North Shore Line did NOT use step boxes to my knowledge, and I agree with the inference that the CA&E did NOT use step boxes either.

                            I am sure that the CA&E did NOT use step boxes at the flag stations west of Wheaton while I used them in the last four years of operation. I seldom used the stations east of Wheaton, but I clearly remember getting off a PM rush period train at Berkeley with NO assistance. The doors and traps were just left open, I suppose the whole way from Bellwood to Wheaton.

                            I am sure that the Batavia shuttle car did NOT carry a step box in either vestibule, and I doubt that any other train did.

                            I have boarded and left South Shore Line trains at a great many low platforms over the past 50 years and never saw a step box on that line.

                            I don't think that step boxes were used on most of the typical interurban railways elsewhere. The great number of local stops would have mitigated against them.

                            ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
                            PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@...
                            Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
                            .
                            .

                            Scott Greig wrote:

                            . . . Do we even know that the CA&E used step boxes? I
                            tried for years to find out if sister company CNS&M
                            ever used step boxes; my final conclusion was that
                            they did not.
                          • Ray Cosyn
                            Having ridden the Aurora and Elgin multiple times in my life,I can ever remember then using step boxes to assist people on or off the train.Ditto the North
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 5, 2008
                              
                              Having ridden the Aurora and Elgin multiple times in my life,I can ever remember then using step boxes to assist people on or off the train.Ditto the North Shore,as my grandmother used to ride it to and from Chicago from Wilmette and I can never remember her being assisted on or off the train with a step box.
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of roygbenedict@...
                              Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 7:07 PM
                              To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [thegreatthirdrail] CA&E Step Box

                              I agree with Scott (below) that the North Shore Line did NOT use step boxes to my knowledge, and I agree with the inference that the CA&E did NOT use step boxes either.

                              I am sure that the CA&E did NOT use step boxes at the flag stations west of Wheaton while I used them in the last four years of operation. I seldom used the stations east of Wheaton, but I clearly remember getting off a PM rush period train at Berkeley with NO assistance. The doors and traps were just left open, I suppose the whole way from Bellwood to Wheaton.

                              I am sure that the Batavia shuttle car did NOT carry a step box in either vestibule, and I doubt that any other train did.

                              I have boarded and left South Shore Line trains at a great many low platforms over the past 50 years and never saw a step box on that line.

                              I don't think that step boxes were used on most of the typical interurban railways elsewhere. The great number of local stops would have mitigated against them.

                              ROY G. BENEDICT | Publishers' services
                              PO Box 368, River Grove IL 60171 � R-Benedict-11@ alumni.uchicago. edu
                              Voice, message and fax: (773) 625-5263
                              .
                              .

                              Scott Greig wrote:

                              . . . Do we even know that the CA&E used step boxes? I
                              tried for years to find out if sister company CNS&M
                              ever used step boxes; my final conclusion was that
                              they did not.

                            • thosleaton
                              While the CA&E seldom used raised L type platforms ( in Cook County and at Eola and Aurora), remember that they did build station platforms that were at
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 6, 2008
                                While the CA&E seldom used raised "L" type platforms ( in Cook County
                                and at Eola and Aurora), remember that they did build station
                                platforms that were at about as high as the railhead, so step boxes
                                may not have been a dire necessity.

                                Cheers

                                TUL



                                --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "seth bramson"
                                <sbramson@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "thegreatthirdrail" <thegreatthirdrail@...>
                                > Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: CA&E Step Box
                                >
                                >
                                > > No actual proof either way,,, but from a practical/logical point of
                                > > view I think the evidence would point away from such use. The fast
                                > > load/unload turn around times would likely prohibit use of step boxes,
                                > > at least to my opinion.
                                > >
                                > > I've never seen any photos of step boxes in use on the CA&E or North
                                > > Shore, close scrutiny of photos at terminals, shop areas, etc.
                                > > where "extra" equipment like headlights and all might be stored don't
                                > > seem to show any boxes either.
                                >
                                > >>>Valid points, but an imp't ?: Were the trap door steps low
                                enough and
                                > >>>close enough to the ground that female passengers and children
                                could take
                                > >>>one step and be on the car?
                                >
                                > Even though I rode the N. S. I can't remember if step boxes were used.
                                > >
                                > > Obviously Randy is looking to make a replica box if such boxes ever
                                > > existed,, a corollary question might be, where/are step boxes stock
                                > > catalog type items that might have common dimensions ?
                                >
                                > >>>Several of the railroad supply companies made step boxes. I
                                can't think
                                > >>>of the names right now, but, if nobody has same on hand I can go
                                the the
                                > >>>rrdiana@... list and ask them who made step boxes.
                                >
                              • Ed Halstead
                                ... Randell, please excuse the delay in responding with the measements, I had to install a new computer at home. The top of the step stool I have is 14 x 16 ,
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 10, 2008
                                  --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "Randall Hicks"
                                  <randallhicks@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Does anyone have an authentic CA&E step box? If so, how would you
                                  > like to post a picture or two, along with some measurements - height,
                                  > width, and length would be enough. Thanks!
                                  >
                                  > Randall
                                  >
                                  Randell, please excuse the delay in responding with the measements, I
                                  had to install a new computer at home. The top of the step stool I have
                                  is 14" x 16", the bottom is 18" x 20", and it is 11" high. I think
                                  there was an article on building a step stool in Model Railroader but I
                                  don't know what issue. Feel free to contact me by email for photos.

                                  Ed
                                • Randall Hicks
                                  ... Thanks, Ed, that will help get me started. I will probably make a crude test box out of plywood to those measurements and see if it helps at all next time
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 10, 2008
                                    --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Halstead" <lkh604@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com, "Randall Hicks"
                                    > <randallhicks@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Does anyone have an authentic CA&E step box? If so, how would you
                                    > > like to post a picture or two, along with some measurements - height,
                                    > > width, and length would be enough. Thanks!
                                    > >
                                    > > Randall
                                    > >
                                    > Randell, please excuse the delay in responding with the measements, I
                                    > had to install a new computer at home. The top of the step stool I have
                                    > is 14" x 16", the bottom is 18" x 20", and it is 11" high. I think
                                    > there was an article on building a step stool in Model Railroader but I
                                    > don't know what issue. Feel free to contact me by email for photos.
                                    >
                                    > Ed
                                    >

                                    Thanks, Ed, that will help get me started. I will probably make a
                                    crude test box out of plywood to those measurements and see if it
                                    helps at all next time the car is parked at the depot. Thanks to the
                                    collective wisdom of everybody, we now know there was no such thing as
                                    a CA&E step box, so the final product won't have to follow any actual
                                    prototype, I guess.

                                    Randall
                                    Visit Hicks Car Works!
                                    http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com
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