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Re: Digest Number 334

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  • Thomas Kaufman
    To reiterate and answer some questions, if the CA&E could of survivied until today, with the cost anf gas and such, I see the St Charles/Geneva and the Batavia
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 15, 2007
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      To reiterate and answer some questions, if the CA&E could of
      survivied until today, with the cost anf gas and such, I see the St
      Charles/Geneva and the Batavia branch major traffic being major
      commuter traffic since the class 1 steam roads didn't reach those
      communities. The only freight traffic on the Batavia branch was coal
      hoppers when the powerhouse was generating power, and the St
      Charles/Geneva branch had an occasional tank car when they were
      spraying the branch for weeds. There was no major freight generator
      then because of the small areas of street running in West Chicago
      Geneva and St Charles. By today, I would see the CA&E finding an
      alternate way to bypass the street running. But then look at the
      South Shore in Michigan City and South Bend. They managed to haul
      heavy freight and passenger trains without a problem.

      To address Tom Thomas's and David Kozsis's comments, in the 30's, Dr
      Thomas Conway envisioned a bypass off the Westchester Branch that
      would run south southwest toward a connection near Warrenville on
      the Aurora line. This was to be a sorta high speed bypass for the
      passenger trains and freight to bypass the congested line from
      Chicago to Wheaton. And as Tom Thomas had mentioned, that would of
      run pretty close to the current Oakbrook and Yorktown Shopping
      Centers. Maybe Dr Conway had a vision of the way the area would grow
      in population and that would of been the way to sustain the
      railroad.

      The line I mentioned that ran to Logan Square would of required
      steel cars because of the problem of arcing and sparking in the
      sbway from the third rail and the threat to the wooden cars.
      Actiually, I would surmise running through the subway would of
      tapped a larger commuter market then limiting the final terminal
      being the loop. And of course again with the high cost of gas today,
      with the extension to O Hare, people in the western suburbs could
      ride to O Hare and not have to leave their automobile. But that
      would of been a roundabout way to Ohare, a longer trip then to just
      drive to the airport.

      And finally, yes there was a proposal to run single ended PCC street
      cars, I think the CTA called them Green Hornets, to run out to
      Wheaton. These cars eventually were redesigned into CTA cars. I have
      always said, if the CTA was to realistically run a service out to
      the western suburbs for that long a distance, they would need to
      have a interurban style of car with comfortable seats for a journey
      of that length. The current cars of the CTA and their predecessor's
      were not designed for that type of comfort since they were for short
      duration trips in the city. Just my thoughts.
      Tom Kaufman
    • David Koyzis
      Dr. Conway assumed control of the CA&E after it went bankrupt in 1919 and the former AE&C split into two in 1921, and he sold it to Insull in 1926. According
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 15, 2007
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        Dr. Conway assumed control of the CA&E after it went bankrupt in 1919 and the former AE&C split into two in 1921, and he sold it to Insull in 1926. According to The Great Third Rail (CERA Bulletin 105), it was Insull who envisioned the bypass route south of the east-west Chicago to Wheaton mainline trackage (p. II-12).

         

        David Koyzis

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Kaufman
        Sent: November 15, 2007 5:56 AM
        To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Digest Number 334

         

        To reiterate and answer some questions, if the CA&E could of
        survivied until today, with the cost anf gas and such, I see the St
        Charles/Geneva and the Batavia branch major traffic being major
        commuter traffic since the class 1 steam roads didn't reach those
        communities. The only freight traffic on the Batavia branch was coal
        hoppers when the powerhouse was generating power, and the St
        Charles/Geneva branch had an occasional tank car when they were
        spraying the branch for weeds. There was no major freight generator
        then because of the small areas of street running in West Chicago
        Geneva and St Charles. By today, I would see the CA&E finding an
        alternate way to bypass the street running. But then look at the
        South Shore in Michigan City and South Bend. They managed to haul
        heavy freight and passenger trains without a problem.

        To address Tom Thomas's and David Kozsis's comments, in the 30's, Dr
        Thomas Conway envisioned a bypass off the Westchester Branch that
        would run south southwest toward a connection near Warrenville on
        the Aurora line. This was to be a sorta high speed bypass for the
        passenger trains and freight to bypass the congested line from
        Chicago to Wheaton. And as Tom Thomas had mentioned, that would of
        run pretty close to the current Oakbrook and Yorktown Shopping
        Centers. Maybe Dr Conway had a vision of the way the area would grow
        in population and that would of been the way to sustain the
        railroad.

        The line I mentioned that ran to Logan Square would of required
        steel cars because of the problem of arcing and sparking in the
        sbway from the third rail and the threat to the wooden cars.
        Actiually, I would surmise running through the subway would of
        tapped a larger commuter market then limiting the final terminal
        being the loop. And of course again with the high cost of gas today,
        with the extension to O Hare, people in the western suburbs could
        ride to O Hare and not have to leave their automobile. But that
        would of been a roundabout way to Ohare, a longer trip then to just
        drive to the airport.

        And finally, yes there was a proposal to run single ended PCC street
        cars, I think the CTA called them Green Hornets, to run out to
        Wheaton. These cars eventually were redesigned into CTA cars. I have
        always said, if the CTA was to realistically run a service out to
        the western suburbs for that long a distance, they would need to
        have a interurban style of car with comfortable seats for a journey
        of that length. The current cars of the CTA and their predecessor' s
        were not designed for that type of comfort since they were for short
        duration trips in the city. Just my thoughts.
        Tom Kaufman

      • Tom Thomas
        Somebody told me a long time ago that the right of way for present day Butterfield Road west of where it absorbs 22nd St. and on to North Aurora, was
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 15, 2007
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          Somebody told me a long time ago that the right of way for present day Butterfield Road west of where it absorbs 22nd St. and on to North Aurora, was originally going to be for the CA&E high speed route to Aurora.  I do recall that the state highway there, even when it was two lanes, ran on an extremely wide right of way for its time.  Now that Butterfield is a 4 lane road most of the way out to Route 59, the right of way doesn't look so wide anymore, but back then it was unusually wide.  Perhaps from its origins as a possible railway line.
           
          Tom Thomas

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: David Koyzis <dkoyzis@...>
          To: thegreatthirdrail@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2007 5:58:11 AM
          Subject: RE: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Digest Number 334

          Dr. Conway assumed control of the CA&E after it went bankrupt in 1919 and the former AE&C split into two in 1921, and he sold it to Insull in 1926. According to The Great Third Rail (CERA Bulletin 105), it was Insull who envisioned the bypass route south of the east-west Chicago to Wheaton mainline trackage (p. II-12).

           

          David Koyzis

           

          -----Original Message-----
          From: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:thegreatthi rdrail@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Kaufman
          Sent: November 15, 2007 5:56 AM
          To: thegreatthirdrail@ yahoogroups. com
          Subject: [thegreatthirdrail] Re: Digest Number 334

           

          To reiterate and answer some questions, if the CA&E could of
          survivied until today, with the cost anf gas and such, I see the St
          Charles/Geneva and the Batavia branch major traffic being major
          commuter traffic since the class 1 steam roads didn't reach those
          communities. The only freight traffic on the Batavia branch was coal
          hoppers when the powerhouse was generating power, and the St
          Charles/Geneva branch had an occasional tank car when they were
          spraying the branch for weeds. There was no major freight generator
          then because of the small areas of street running in West Chicago
          Geneva and St Charles. By today, I would see the CA&E finding an
          alternate way to bypass the street running. But then look at the
          South Shore in Michigan City and South Bend. They managed to haul
          heavy freight and passenger trains without a problem.

          To address Tom Thomas's and David Kozsis's comments, in the 30's, Dr
          Thomas Conway envisioned a bypass off the Westchester Branch that
          would run south southwest toward a connection near Warrenville on
          the Aurora line. This was to be a sorta high speed bypass for the
          passenger trains and freight to bypass the congested line from
          Chicago to Wheaton. And as Tom Thomas had mentioned, that would of
          run pretty close to the current Oakbrook and Yorktown Shopping
          Centers. Maybe Dr Conway had a vision of the way the area would grow
          in population and that would of been the way to sustain the
          railroad.

          The line I mentioned that ran to Logan Square would of required
          steel cars because of the problem of arcing and sparking in the
          sbway from the third rail and the threat to the wooden cars.
          Actiually, I would surmise running through the subway would of
          tapped a larger commuter market then limiting the final terminal
          being the loop. And of course again with the high cost of gas today,
          with the extension to O Hare, people in the western suburbs could
          ride to O Hare and not have to leave their automobile. But that
          would of been a roundabout way to Ohare, a longer trip then to just
          drive to the airport.

          And finally, yes there was a proposal to run single ended PCC street
          cars, I think the CTA called them Green Hornets, to run out to
          Wheaton. These cars eventually were redesigned into CTA cars. I have
          always said, if the CTA was to realistically run a service out to
          the western suburbs for that long a distance, they would need to
          have a interurban style of car with comfortable seats for a journey
          of that length. The current cars of the CTA and their predecessor' s
          were not designed for that type of comfort since they were for short
          duration trips in the city. Just my thoughts.
          Tom Kaufman




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        • Thomas Kaufman
          David: You are correct. I realized my mistake after I pressed the send button. Thanks for clarifying. I used to have the CERA Bulletin but lost in in a
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 15, 2007
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            David:

            You are correct. I realized my mistake after I pressed the send
            button. Thanks for clarifying. I used to have the CERA Bulletin but
            lost in in a subsequent move, aaaand I didn't have Plachno's book
            handy when I typed the post. Sorry for the misinformation. Tom Kaufman
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