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Jupiter and Pallas aligned with Eta Corvi (Tso-Hia)

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  • mahtezcatpoc
    ... Jupiter and Pallas are currently aligned with Tso-Hia. The space shuttle Discovery is supposed to come back to Earth tomorrow, possibly landing in
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
      --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K. Rosenberg"
      <ye-stars@i...> wrote:
      > Hi Mark,
      >

      > From my Encyclopaedia:
      >
      > The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The
      > Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot),
      > which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta
      > (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab,
      > 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta
      > (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that
      > brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in
      > late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or
      > linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects
      > who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right
      > spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)),
      > which stood for the feudal subjects with different family
      > names. These chariots was laden with contributions &
      > offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism
      > came to represent luggage & transport; and because they
      > travelled at great speed, it also stood for the WIND.
      > (Corvus was "Great Storm Bird" in Sumer).


      Jupiter and Pallas are currently aligned with Tso-Hia.

      The space shuttle Discovery is supposed to come back to Earth
      tomorrow, possibly landing in California (at Edwards AFB near
      Rosamond) or New Mexico (at White Sands near Alamogordo) if weather at
      Cape Canaveral doesn't permit. There's been some concern over worn or
      damaged areas on the ship's body, like a protruding piece of fabric
      that one of the astronauts had to snip off, that might or might have
      posed a threat to the ship during re-entry.

      Peter Jennings has died; the TV anchors whose words the masses used to
      hang on (like Jennings) are passing from the scene.

      King Fahd of Saudi Arabia died; Crown Prince Abdullah is now King
      Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and other members of the Saudi Arabian royal
      family are said to be jockeying for power.

      Tso-Hia = "relatives of the king"?

      Mark A. Holmes
    • Diana K. Rosenberg
      Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000 From: mahtezcatpoc Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri ... I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That s
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
        Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000
        From: "mahtezcatpoc" <mahtezcatpoc@...>
        Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri

        > Mark wrote:
        >
        I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That's not also called Al Hecka, is
        it?

        No, that's a dim star - Mag 5.1 - it's just Zeta Corvi.

        The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust

        From my Chinese file (from Staal's "Stars of Jade":

        Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib32)* as
        part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided
        over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The
        common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided
        over longevity.

        *13 Libra 52 now

        From my book:

        In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, "Track of Dust:" Jupiter was
        here during the "dust bowl" drought of 1933 when a huge dust storm stretched
        from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes, and this was Mars when the drought's
        "worst dust storm" hit the Western and Southwestern states of the US in
        1935.

        Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
        mistranslation.

        Knowing you, I hesitated to send this info to you, because I know you'll
        pounce on the name
        and glue it to Zeta Corvi! :-)

        Love, Diana
      • Mark Andrew Holmes
        ... You have some kind of problem with that? Actually, we were discussing this some time ago, in a thread on Corvus, and I already have Zeta Corvi down as
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
          --- "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
          wrote:

          >
          > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000
          > From: "mahtezcatpoc" <mahtezcatpoc@...>
          > Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri
          >
          > > Mark wrote:
          > >
          > I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That's not
          > also called Al Hecka, is
          > it?
          >
          > No, that's a dim star - Mag 5.1 - it's just Zeta
          > Corvi.
          >
          > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of
          > Dust
          >
          > From my Chinese file (from Staal's "Stars of Jade":
          >
          > Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only,
          > Zeta Corvi (13Lib32)* as
          > part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of
          > the road, and presided
          > over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming
          > and goings of armies. The
          > common people, however, referred to it as the coffin
          > and said it presided
          > over longevity.
          >
          > *13 Libra 52 now
          >
          > From my book:
          >
          > In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, "Track
          > of Dust:" Jupiter was
          > here during the "dust bowl" drought of 1933 when a
          > huge dust storm stretched
          > from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes, and this was Mars
          > when the drought's
          > "worst dust storm" hit the Western and Southwestern
          > states of the US in
          > 1935.
          >
          > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm
          > pretty sure that is a
          > mistranslation.
          >
          > Knowing you, I hesitated to send this info to you,
          > because I know you'll
          > pounce on the name
          > and glue it to Zeta Corvi! :-)
          >


          You have some kind of problem with that?

          Actually, we were discussing this some time ago, in a
          thread on Corvus, and I already have Zeta Corvi down
          as Tchang-Cha in one of my other SolarFire star menus.
          I think putting down Zeta Corvi as Al Hecka may have
          been a mistake that came with the software.

          Mark A. Holmes

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        • Astrocalypse
          ... From: Diana K. Rosenberg Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM ... Hello Diana, Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
            Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM

            > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust
            >
            > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
            > mistranslation.

            Hello Diana,

            Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different
            way of translating the sound.

            T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit. Both translations to track
            of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-). Thank you for pointing out
            track of dust is in better context though.

            Love,
            Cal
          • Diana K. Rosenberg
            Cal wrote: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:18:46 -0000 From: Astrocalypse Subject: Zeta Corvi ... From: Diana K. Rosenberg
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
              Zeta Corvi

              Cal wrote:

                Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:18:46 -0000
                 From: "Astrocalypse" <astrocalypse@...>
              Subject: Zeta Corvi

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
              Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM

              > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust
              >
              > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
              > mistranslation.

              Hello Diana,

              Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different
              way of translating the sound.

              Yes, I realized that Cal.

              T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit.  Both translations to track
              of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-).  Thank you for pointing out
              track of dust is in better context though.

              Wow - do you read Chinese?

              Yes, I think dust or grit would fit best in this context - here's the full entry from Staal on the stars of Corvus: (positions are 1980 - add 17' for 2000, 21 minutes for

              2006)

              The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot), which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab, 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)), which stood for the feudal subjects with different family names. These chariots was laden with contributions & offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism came to represent luggage & transport; and because they travelled at great speed, it also stood for the wind. (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).

              Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided over longevity.

              Interesting that it stood for wind as well, because little Corvus is one of the highest-scoring storm and wind areas in the sky!

              Love, Diana

              By the way, Staal was using his own translation of Schlegel's classic "Uranographie Chinoise."

              Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/

            • Diana K. Rosenberg
              Mark wrote: You have some kind of problem with that? ====================== Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there and no-one
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                Zeta Corvi

                Mark wrote:

                You have some kind of problem with that?
                ======================
                Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there
                and no-one will know where it came from or what it means.

                So many of the errors that have come down on star lists
                are very hard or even impossible to change because
                they have appeared in print and then get "established"
                So much of what I have been doing has been to try to
                "clear away the underbrush"

                (In the case of Zeta Corvi, however, I guess it's OK)

                Oculus Sagittarii for instance,

                Facies M22 Sag NGC6656 in front of face 8CP21   - 0 13  -23 24  18 36   5.1     Gb
                 Oculus Sagittarii (misnomer – this is not the Archer’s eye): a nebulous globular cluster

                The real Archer's eye is

                Ain al Rami Nu1 Sagittarii  double      12CP28  0 07    -22 43  18 54   4.83    cK2
                 Archer's eye or face; with Nu2, nebulous double star

                As for M22, "Facies" comes from the Latin facere, to make or do something;

                One of the really interesting things here is that Facies is IN FRONT of the Archer's face, and it's nebulous...
                so it's either messing up the Archer's aim, or forcing a choice of focus - as if Neptune was there...
                or as if a microscope or telescope needed to be focused on something, and choices must be made -

                So I think of Facies as a lens - you choose your own focus.

                Does this make sense to you?

                Love, Diana    

                Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/

              • mahtezcatpoc
                ... something; ... of the ... focus - ... something, and ... Yeah, okay. Mark A. Holmes
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                  --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K. Rosenberg"
                  <ye-stars@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mark wrote:
                  >
                  > You have some kind of problem with that?
                  > ======================
                  > Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there
                  > and no-one will know where it came from or what it means.
                  >
                  > So many of the errors that have come down on star lists
                  > are very hard or even impossible to change because
                  > they have appeared in print and then get "established"
                  > So much of what I have been doing has been to try to
                  > "clear away the underbrush"
                  >
                  > (In the case of Zeta Corvi, however, I guess it's OK)
                  >
                  > Oculus Sagittarii for instance,
                  >
                  > Facies M22 Sag NGC6656 in front of face 8CP21 - 0 13 -23 24 18 36 5.1
                  > Gb
                  > Oculus Sagittarii (misnomer - this is not the Archer's eye): a nebulous
                  > globular cluster
                  >
                  > The real Archer's eye is
                  >
                  > Ain al Rami Nu1 Sagittarii double 12CP28 0 07 -22 43 18 54 4.83
                  > cK2
                  > Archer's eye or face; with Nu2, nebulous double star
                  >
                  > As for M22, "Facies" comes from the Latin facere, to make or do
                  something;
                  >
                  > One of the really interesting things here is that Facies is IN FRONT
                  of the
                  > Archer's face, and it's nebulous...
                  > so it's either messing up the Archer's aim, or forcing a choice of
                  focus -
                  > as if Neptune was there...
                  > or as if a microscope or telescope needed to be focused on
                  something, and
                  > choices must be made -
                  >
                  > So I think of Facies as a lens - you choose your own focus.
                  >
                  > Does this make sense to you?
                  >
                  > Love, Diana
                  >
                  > Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/
                  >


                  Yeah, okay.

                  Mark A. Holmes
                • Astrocalypse
                  Zeta Corvi----- Original Message ----- From: Diana K. Rosenberg Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM C1 Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                    Zeta Corvi
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM
                     
                    C1>Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different way of translating the sound.
                     
                    D>Yes, I realized that Cal.
                     
                    C2>Translation is notoriously difficult.  I have been wrestling with the meaning of 'life style' by Adler ("Lebensstil") and was told that the translation from German is correct (indeed that's what the online translators say).  In German, the word apparently has a deeper meaning which is simply not translatable in a single word.  However, I would argue that 'personal perspective' would be a closer translation, I don't know if any German speakers on the list would agree with me on this !  Anyone ?? <g>
                     
                    C1>T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit.  Both translations to track of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-).  Thank you for pointing out track of dust is in better context though.
                     
                    D>Wow - do you read Chinese?
                     
                    C2>Yes, I do.  However, I would most probably have translated Tchang Sha literally as 'long <trail of> sand' myself.
                     
                    <D>Yes, I think dust or grit would fit best in this context - here's the full entry from Staal on the stars of Corvus: (positions are 1980 - add 17' for 2000, 21 minutes for 2006)
                     
                    <C2> I have 'Chariot' marked as spanning 17 degrees and as the 28th Chinese Constellation.
                     
                    <D>The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot), which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab, 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)), which stood for the feudal subjects with different family names. These chariots was laden with contributions & offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism came to represent luggage & transport; and because they travelled at great speed, it also stood for the wind. (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).
                     
                    <C2>I have the 'pinyin' translation written as 'zhen' for Tchin.  Ann Wright has Epsilon down for Minkar and Beta for Kraz.  At least one astronomy program ignored Eta. 
                     
                    <D>Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided over longevity.
                     
                    <C2>I am entirely ignorant of Chinese astronomy and am just trying to acquire more information but I do have a teeny star map with Chinese constellations (in Chinese) marked on it.  However, I see Vindematrix (Jiao, 1st, 12 degrees) is fairly close by, so calling it a coffin is not that much of a stretch :-)
                     
                    D>Interesting that it stood for wind as well, because little Corvus is one of the highest-scoring storm and wind areas in the sky!
                     
                    D>By the way, Staal was using his own translation of Schlegel's classic "Uranographie Chinoise."
                     
                    C2>Hmmm.  Uranographie chinoise, ou, Preuves directes que lastronomie primitive est originaire de la Chine by Gustave Schlegel.  It is out of print (not that I read French anyway ;-)) but I will bear this in mind for the future. 
                     
                    Thanks, Diana.
                     
                    Love,
                    Cal
                     
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