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Jupiter alignment with Tchang-Cha (was Zeta Corvi)

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  • Mark Andrew Holmes
    ... I don t know anywhere near as much about Chinese astrology as I d like to. They ve accomplished a lot of stuff that isn t well-known here. Chinese
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 5, 2005
      --- "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
      wrote:

      > Hi Mark,
      >
      > From my book:
      >
      > In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, “Track
      > of
      > Dust:” Jupiter was here during the "dust bowl"
      > drought of
      > 1933 when a huge dust storm stretched from Oklahoma
      > to the
      > Great Lakes, and this was Mars when the drought’s
      > “worst
      > dust storm” hit the Western and Southwestern states
      > of the
      > US in 1935.
      >
      > The Chinese were amazing!



      I don't know anywhere near as much about Chinese
      astrology as I'd like to. They've accomplished a lot
      of stuff that isn't well-known here. Chinese explorers
      may have visited North America 1700 years before
      Columbus was born...

      http://northernblue.ca/cblog/archives/62-CanQuiz-12.html


      >
      > By the way, the "dust" was kicked up by their
      > Chariot:
      >
      > From my Encyclopaedia:
      >
      > The last house of the Great Red Bird was called
      > Tchin, The
      > Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial
      > Chariot),
      > which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow:
      > Beta
      > (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab,
      > 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba,
      > 11Lib58), & Eta
      > (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots
      > that
      > brought the feudal princes to the great feast of
      > pleasure in
      > late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left
      > spindle, or
      > linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal
      > subjects
      > who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the
      > right
      > spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi
      > (Alchiba-11Lib58)),
      > which stood for the feudal subjects with different
      > family
      > names. These chariots was laden with contributions &
      > offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this
      > asterism
      > came to represent luggage & transport; and because
      > they
      > travelled at great speed, it also stood for the
      > WIND.
      > (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).
      >
      > Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only,
      > Zeta Corvi
      > (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was
      > the
      > dust of the road, and presided over chariots,
      > harnesses,
      > luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The
      > common
      > people, however, referred to it as the coffin and
      > said it
      > presided over LONGEVITY.
      >
      > Note the words I put in caps: wind and longevity -
      > both
      > pertinent in Toronto plane crash!


      There have been two recent incidents, one in
      California, the other in Utah, in which Boy Scouts
      were struck and killed by lightning (a phenomenon
      usually found in conjunction with wind, during
      storms). George W. Bush's visit to the Boy Scout
      Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill in which those Alaska troop
      leaders were electrocuted was delayed by inclement
      weather, and numerous Boy Scouts who were kept waiting
      a long time in the hot sun to greet him landed in the
      hospital.



      >
      > NOTE: ABOVE LONGITUDES WERE FOR 1980; FOR NOW, ADD
      > 21
      > MINUTES TO EACH.
      >
      > I suppose you could call Zeta the Crow's heart; I
      > had it as
      > the base of the Crow's right wing. Beta (Kraz) would
      > also fit for
      > the heart.

      Uh-huh.


      >
      > In 2-3 weeks Jupiter will be at Kraz/Seginus (17
      > Libra), one of
      > the two highest-scoring storm star degrees, and
      > Venus will
      > join him there at the end of the month. Severe
      > hurricanes,
      > no doubt!


      I have Juno aligned with both Kraz and Seginus; my
      relationships have a way of foundering under the
      weight of conflict that pretty much just develops when
      they persist for any length of time.


      Mark A. Holmes

      __________________________________________________
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    • mahtezcatpoc
      ... Jupiter and Pallas are currently aligned with Tso-Hia. The space shuttle Discovery is supposed to come back to Earth tomorrow, possibly landing in
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
        --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K. Rosenberg"
        <ye-stars@i...> wrote:
        > Hi Mark,
        >

        > From my Encyclopaedia:
        >
        > The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The
        > Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot),
        > which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta
        > (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab,
        > 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta
        > (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that
        > brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in
        > late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or
        > linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects
        > who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right
        > spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)),
        > which stood for the feudal subjects with different family
        > names. These chariots was laden with contributions &
        > offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism
        > came to represent luggage & transport; and because they
        > travelled at great speed, it also stood for the WIND.
        > (Corvus was "Great Storm Bird" in Sumer).


        Jupiter and Pallas are currently aligned with Tso-Hia.

        The space shuttle Discovery is supposed to come back to Earth
        tomorrow, possibly landing in California (at Edwards AFB near
        Rosamond) or New Mexico (at White Sands near Alamogordo) if weather at
        Cape Canaveral doesn't permit. There's been some concern over worn or
        damaged areas on the ship's body, like a protruding piece of fabric
        that one of the astronauts had to snip off, that might or might have
        posed a threat to the ship during re-entry.

        Peter Jennings has died; the TV anchors whose words the masses used to
        hang on (like Jennings) are passing from the scene.

        King Fahd of Saudi Arabia died; Crown Prince Abdullah is now King
        Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and other members of the Saudi Arabian royal
        family are said to be jockeying for power.

        Tso-Hia = "relatives of the king"?

        Mark A. Holmes
      • Diana K. Rosenberg
        Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000 From: mahtezcatpoc Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri ... I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That s
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
          Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000
          From: "mahtezcatpoc" <mahtezcatpoc@...>
          Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri

          > Mark wrote:
          >
          I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That's not also called Al Hecka, is
          it?

          No, that's a dim star - Mag 5.1 - it's just Zeta Corvi.

          The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust

          From my Chinese file (from Staal's "Stars of Jade":

          Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib32)* as
          part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided
          over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The
          common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided
          over longevity.

          *13 Libra 52 now

          From my book:

          In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, "Track of Dust:" Jupiter was
          here during the "dust bowl" drought of 1933 when a huge dust storm stretched
          from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes, and this was Mars when the drought's
          "worst dust storm" hit the Western and Southwestern states of the US in
          1935.

          Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
          mistranslation.

          Knowing you, I hesitated to send this info to you, because I know you'll
          pounce on the name
          and glue it to Zeta Corvi! :-)

          Love, Diana
        • Mark Andrew Holmes
          ... You have some kind of problem with that? Actually, we were discussing this some time ago, in a thread on Corvus, and I already have Zeta Corvi down as
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
            --- "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
            wrote:

            >
            > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000
            > From: "mahtezcatpoc" <mahtezcatpoc@...>
            > Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri
            >
            > > Mark wrote:
            > >
            > I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That's not
            > also called Al Hecka, is
            > it?
            >
            > No, that's a dim star - Mag 5.1 - it's just Zeta
            > Corvi.
            >
            > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of
            > Dust
            >
            > From my Chinese file (from Staal's "Stars of Jade":
            >
            > Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only,
            > Zeta Corvi (13Lib32)* as
            > part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of
            > the road, and presided
            > over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming
            > and goings of armies. The
            > common people, however, referred to it as the coffin
            > and said it presided
            > over longevity.
            >
            > *13 Libra 52 now
            >
            > From my book:
            >
            > In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, "Track
            > of Dust:" Jupiter was
            > here during the "dust bowl" drought of 1933 when a
            > huge dust storm stretched
            > from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes, and this was Mars
            > when the drought's
            > "worst dust storm" hit the Western and Southwestern
            > states of the US in
            > 1935.
            >
            > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm
            > pretty sure that is a
            > mistranslation.
            >
            > Knowing you, I hesitated to send this info to you,
            > because I know you'll
            > pounce on the name
            > and glue it to Zeta Corvi! :-)
            >


            You have some kind of problem with that?

            Actually, we were discussing this some time ago, in a
            thread on Corvus, and I already have Zeta Corvi down
            as Tchang-Cha in one of my other SolarFire star menus.
            I think putting down Zeta Corvi as Al Hecka may have
            been a mistake that came with the software.

            Mark A. Holmes

            __________________________________________________
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          • Astrocalypse
            ... From: Diana K. Rosenberg Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM ... Hello Diana, Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
              Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM

              > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust
              >
              > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
              > mistranslation.

              Hello Diana,

              Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different
              way of translating the sound.

              T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit. Both translations to track
              of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-). Thank you for pointing out
              track of dust is in better context though.

              Love,
              Cal
            • Diana K. Rosenberg
              Cal wrote: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:18:46 -0000 From: Astrocalypse Subject: Zeta Corvi ... From: Diana K. Rosenberg
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                Zeta Corvi

                Cal wrote:

                  Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:18:46 -0000
                   From: "Astrocalypse" <astrocalypse@...>
                Subject: Zeta Corvi

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
                Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM

                > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust
                >
                > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
                > mistranslation.

                Hello Diana,

                Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different
                way of translating the sound.

                Yes, I realized that Cal.

                T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit.  Both translations to track
                of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-).  Thank you for pointing out
                track of dust is in better context though.

                Wow - do you read Chinese?

                Yes, I think dust or grit would fit best in this context - here's the full entry from Staal on the stars of Corvus: (positions are 1980 - add 17' for 2000, 21 minutes for

                2006)

                The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot), which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab, 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)), which stood for the feudal subjects with different family names. These chariots was laden with contributions & offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism came to represent luggage & transport; and because they travelled at great speed, it also stood for the wind. (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).

                Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided over longevity.

                Interesting that it stood for wind as well, because little Corvus is one of the highest-scoring storm and wind areas in the sky!

                Love, Diana

                By the way, Staal was using his own translation of Schlegel's classic "Uranographie Chinoise."

                Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/

              • Diana K. Rosenberg
                Mark wrote: You have some kind of problem with that? ====================== Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there and no-one
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                  Zeta Corvi

                  Mark wrote:

                  You have some kind of problem with that?
                  ======================
                  Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there
                  and no-one will know where it came from or what it means.

                  So many of the errors that have come down on star lists
                  are very hard or even impossible to change because
                  they have appeared in print and then get "established"
                  So much of what I have been doing has been to try to
                  "clear away the underbrush"

                  (In the case of Zeta Corvi, however, I guess it's OK)

                  Oculus Sagittarii for instance,

                  Facies M22 Sag NGC6656 in front of face 8CP21   - 0 13  -23 24  18 36   5.1     Gb
                   Oculus Sagittarii (misnomer – this is not the Archer’s eye): a nebulous globular cluster

                  The real Archer's eye is

                  Ain al Rami Nu1 Sagittarii  double      12CP28  0 07    -22 43  18 54   4.83    cK2
                   Archer's eye or face; with Nu2, nebulous double star

                  As for M22, "Facies" comes from the Latin facere, to make or do something;

                  One of the really interesting things here is that Facies is IN FRONT of the Archer's face, and it's nebulous...
                  so it's either messing up the Archer's aim, or forcing a choice of focus - as if Neptune was there...
                  or as if a microscope or telescope needed to be focused on something, and choices must be made -

                  So I think of Facies as a lens - you choose your own focus.

                  Does this make sense to you?

                  Love, Diana    

                  Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/

                • mahtezcatpoc
                  ... something; ... of the ... focus - ... something, and ... Yeah, okay. Mark A. Holmes
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                    --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K. Rosenberg"
                    <ye-stars@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Mark wrote:
                    >
                    > You have some kind of problem with that?
                    > ======================
                    > Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there
                    > and no-one will know where it came from or what it means.
                    >
                    > So many of the errors that have come down on star lists
                    > are very hard or even impossible to change because
                    > they have appeared in print and then get "established"
                    > So much of what I have been doing has been to try to
                    > "clear away the underbrush"
                    >
                    > (In the case of Zeta Corvi, however, I guess it's OK)
                    >
                    > Oculus Sagittarii for instance,
                    >
                    > Facies M22 Sag NGC6656 in front of face 8CP21 - 0 13 -23 24 18 36 5.1
                    > Gb
                    > Oculus Sagittarii (misnomer - this is not the Archer's eye): a nebulous
                    > globular cluster
                    >
                    > The real Archer's eye is
                    >
                    > Ain al Rami Nu1 Sagittarii double 12CP28 0 07 -22 43 18 54 4.83
                    > cK2
                    > Archer's eye or face; with Nu2, nebulous double star
                    >
                    > As for M22, "Facies" comes from the Latin facere, to make or do
                    something;
                    >
                    > One of the really interesting things here is that Facies is IN FRONT
                    of the
                    > Archer's face, and it's nebulous...
                    > so it's either messing up the Archer's aim, or forcing a choice of
                    focus -
                    > as if Neptune was there...
                    > or as if a microscope or telescope needed to be focused on
                    something, and
                    > choices must be made -
                    >
                    > So I think of Facies as a lens - you choose your own focus.
                    >
                    > Does this make sense to you?
                    >
                    > Love, Diana
                    >
                    > Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/
                    >


                    Yeah, okay.

                    Mark A. Holmes
                  • Astrocalypse
                    Zeta Corvi----- Original Message ----- From: Diana K. Rosenberg Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM C1 Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                      Zeta Corvi
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM
                       
                      C1>Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different way of translating the sound.
                       
                      D>Yes, I realized that Cal.
                       
                      C2>Translation is notoriously difficult.  I have been wrestling with the meaning of 'life style' by Adler ("Lebensstil") and was told that the translation from German is correct (indeed that's what the online translators say).  In German, the word apparently has a deeper meaning which is simply not translatable in a single word.  However, I would argue that 'personal perspective' would be a closer translation, I don't know if any German speakers on the list would agree with me on this !  Anyone ?? <g>
                       
                      C1>T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit.  Both translations to track of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-).  Thank you for pointing out track of dust is in better context though.
                       
                      D>Wow - do you read Chinese?
                       
                      C2>Yes, I do.  However, I would most probably have translated Tchang Sha literally as 'long <trail of> sand' myself.
                       
                      <D>Yes, I think dust or grit would fit best in this context - here's the full entry from Staal on the stars of Corvus: (positions are 1980 - add 17' for 2000, 21 minutes for 2006)
                       
                      <C2> I have 'Chariot' marked as spanning 17 degrees and as the 28th Chinese Constellation.
                       
                      <D>The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot), which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab, 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)), which stood for the feudal subjects with different family names. These chariots was laden with contributions & offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism came to represent luggage & transport; and because they travelled at great speed, it also stood for the wind. (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).
                       
                      <C2>I have the 'pinyin' translation written as 'zhen' for Tchin.  Ann Wright has Epsilon down for Minkar and Beta for Kraz.  At least one astronomy program ignored Eta. 
                       
                      <D>Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided over longevity.
                       
                      <C2>I am entirely ignorant of Chinese astronomy and am just trying to acquire more information but I do have a teeny star map with Chinese constellations (in Chinese) marked on it.  However, I see Vindematrix (Jiao, 1st, 12 degrees) is fairly close by, so calling it a coffin is not that much of a stretch :-)
                       
                      D>Interesting that it stood for wind as well, because little Corvus is one of the highest-scoring storm and wind areas in the sky!
                       
                      D>By the way, Staal was using his own translation of Schlegel's classic "Uranographie Chinoise."
                       
                      C2>Hmmm.  Uranographie chinoise, ou, Preuves directes que lastronomie primitive est originaire de la Chine by Gustave Schlegel.  It is out of print (not that I read French anyway ;-)) but I will bear this in mind for the future. 
                       
                      Thanks, Diana.
                       
                      Love,
                      Cal
                       
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