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Zeta Corvi

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  • Diana K. Rosenberg
    Hi Mark, From my book: In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, “Track of Dust:” Jupiter was here during the dust bowl drought of 1933 when a huge
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
      Hi Mark,

      From my book:

      In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, “Track of
      Dust:” Jupiter was here during the "dust bowl" drought of
      1933 when a huge dust storm stretched from Oklahoma to the
      Great Lakes, and this was Mars when the drought’s “worst
      dust storm” hit the Western and Southwestern states of the
      US in 1935.

      The Chinese were amazing!

      By the way, the "dust" was kicked up by their Chariot:

      From my Encyclopaedia:

      The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The
      Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot),
      which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta
      (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab,
      13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta
      (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that
      brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in
      late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or
      linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects
      who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right
      spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)),
      which stood for the feudal subjects with different family
      names. These chariots was laden with contributions &
      offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism
      came to represent luggage & transport; and because they
      travelled at great speed, it also stood for the WIND.
      (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).

      Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi
      (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the
      dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses,
      luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common
      people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it
      presided over LONGEVITY.

      Note the words I put in caps: wind and longevity - both
      pertinent in Toronto plane crash!

      NOTE: ABOVE LONGITUDES WERE FOR 1980; FOR NOW, ADD 21
      MINUTES TO EACH.

      I suppose you could call Zeta the Crow's heart; I had it as
      the base of the Crow's right wing. Beta (Kraz) would also fit for
      the heart.

      In 2-3 weeks Jupiter will be at Kraz/Seginus (17 Libra), one of
      the two highest-scoring storm star degrees, and Venus will
      join him there at the end of the month. Severe hurricanes,
      no doubt!

      From my book:

      Storm-bird Corvus presides, for this is one of the
      highest-scoring storm areas of the zodiac and with stars of
      Carina, Argo’s keel, a place of frequent shipwrecks; the Sun
      and Mars were here in 1737 when a cyclone in the Bay of
      Bengal engulfed seaports, destroying more than 2,000 ships
      and annihilating 300,000 people; Mercury and Jupiter were
      here at the Autumn Equinox of 1815, the day the “Great
      September Gale” devastated New England; this was Mercury in
      1854 when ocean-going paddlewheeler Arctic, running in a
      dense, rolling fog, collided with steamer Vesta south of
      Cape Race, Newfoundland: Arctic’s stokers panicked, killed
      an officer and threw women and children out of the
      lifeboats: both ships sank: out of 435, only 85 survived,
      and in 1857 when sturdy sidewheel steamer SS Central America
      out of Havana, carrying more than 500 passengers and 21 tons
      of California gold, foundered in a hurricane “of
      unprecedented fury and violence” off NC: a few were rescued,
      some heroically by another severely damaged ship, others by
      a Norwegian sea-captain who, after being persistently and
      savagely attacked by a man-of-war sea-hawk (Corvus:
      “Storm-Bird of the Evil Wind!”), turned back and came upon
      survivors clinging to wreckage (he later explained “I
      regarded the bird as an omen, indicating to me that I must
      change my course”) by heeding the omen, he found and rescued
      49 (of 565 who had sailed on the Central America, only 60
      were saved). Venus was here in 1711 when a 61-ship English
      invasion fleet with more than 12,000 soldiers, sailors and
      their families, en route to attack Quebec, became lost in
      dense fog and hit by gales: 8 transports smashed on jagged
      reefs and shoals of Egg Island, Labrador: more than 2,000,
      including women and children, were lost (the few who made it
      to land, unrescued, died of starvation and exposure); this
      was also Venus in 1820 when whaling ship Essex was attacked
      and stove in by a whale (survivors in small whaleboats
      eventually resorted to cannibalism); Jupiter was here in
      1934 at one of the highest surface winds ever recorded up to
      that time: 231 mph (372 kmh) on Mt Washington, NH; this was
      Saturn in 1274 when a Kamikaze (“Divine Wind”) destroyed
      Khubilai Khan’s invasion fleet, Saturn and NNode in 1717
      when pirate ship Whydah sank in a storm off Wellfleet, MA;
      this was Uranus at the Great Blizzard of 1888, a 4-day storm
      with gusts up to 100 mph (161 kph) that dumped more than 4
      ft (1.2 m) of snow over New England from Maine to Maryland:
      NY took the brunt with drifts up to 10 ft (3 m) high: scores
      of ships were destroyed, more than 400 killed. Pluto was
      here in 1979 when three twisters combined into one giant
      tornado Œ-mile (.4 m) wide and hit Wichita Falls, TX,
      lifting debris œ mile (.8 m) into the sky, killing 100,
      injuring 900, and at the Fastnet yacht race disaster in the
      Irish Sea when a violent gale struck without warning: 5
      yachts were lost, 19 abandoned, 19 drowned, 138 rescued –
      “the worst disaster in the history of ocean racing;” the
      NNode was here at a severe weather outbreak in 1996:
      Illinois alone was hit by 30 twisters, and when climbers
      descending from Mt Everest’s summit were caught in a storm
      and 70º below zero temperatures: 8 died, including
      experienced expedition leaders: 2 were saved by a daring
      Nepalese helicopter rescue. This was the Asc when a lethal
      F-5 tornado with winds of more than 250 mph (402 kph) hit
      towns west of Birmingham, AL in 1998 destroying whole
      communities and leaving dozens dead, some of them sucked out
      of “safe” storm cellars. This was the MC at Blackwell, OK in
      1955 when a monstrous twister hit, killing 19 (it then
      obliterated Udall, KS, killing 82).

      Phew. Not good. Jupiter is a storm planet (remember Zeus
      hurling his thunderbolts?)

      Love, Diana
    • Mark Andrew Holmes
      ... I don t know anywhere near as much about Chinese astrology as I d like to. They ve accomplished a lot of stuff that isn t well-known here. Chinese
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 5, 2005
        --- "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
        wrote:

        > Hi Mark,
        >
        > From my book:
        >
        > In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, “Track
        > of
        > Dust:” Jupiter was here during the "dust bowl"
        > drought of
        > 1933 when a huge dust storm stretched from Oklahoma
        > to the
        > Great Lakes, and this was Mars when the drought’s
        > “worst
        > dust storm” hit the Western and Southwestern states
        > of the
        > US in 1935.
        >
        > The Chinese were amazing!



        I don't know anywhere near as much about Chinese
        astrology as I'd like to. They've accomplished a lot
        of stuff that isn't well-known here. Chinese explorers
        may have visited North America 1700 years before
        Columbus was born...

        http://northernblue.ca/cblog/archives/62-CanQuiz-12.html


        >
        > By the way, the "dust" was kicked up by their
        > Chariot:
        >
        > From my Encyclopaedia:
        >
        > The last house of the Great Red Bird was called
        > Tchin, The
        > Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial
        > Chariot),
        > which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow:
        > Beta
        > (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab,
        > 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba,
        > 11Lib58), & Eta
        > (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots
        > that
        > brought the feudal princes to the great feast of
        > pleasure in
        > late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left
        > spindle, or
        > linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal
        > subjects
        > who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the
        > right
        > spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi
        > (Alchiba-11Lib58)),
        > which stood for the feudal subjects with different
        > family
        > names. These chariots was laden with contributions &
        > offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this
        > asterism
        > came to represent luggage & transport; and because
        > they
        > travelled at great speed, it also stood for the
        > WIND.
        > (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).
        >
        > Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only,
        > Zeta Corvi
        > (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was
        > the
        > dust of the road, and presided over chariots,
        > harnesses,
        > luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The
        > common
        > people, however, referred to it as the coffin and
        > said it
        > presided over LONGEVITY.
        >
        > Note the words I put in caps: wind and longevity -
        > both
        > pertinent in Toronto plane crash!


        There have been two recent incidents, one in
        California, the other in Utah, in which Boy Scouts
        were struck and killed by lightning (a phenomenon
        usually found in conjunction with wind, during
        storms). George W. Bush's visit to the Boy Scout
        Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill in which those Alaska troop
        leaders were electrocuted was delayed by inclement
        weather, and numerous Boy Scouts who were kept waiting
        a long time in the hot sun to greet him landed in the
        hospital.



        >
        > NOTE: ABOVE LONGITUDES WERE FOR 1980; FOR NOW, ADD
        > 21
        > MINUTES TO EACH.
        >
        > I suppose you could call Zeta the Crow's heart; I
        > had it as
        > the base of the Crow's right wing. Beta (Kraz) would
        > also fit for
        > the heart.

        Uh-huh.


        >
        > In 2-3 weeks Jupiter will be at Kraz/Seginus (17
        > Libra), one of
        > the two highest-scoring storm star degrees, and
        > Venus will
        > join him there at the end of the month. Severe
        > hurricanes,
        > no doubt!


        I have Juno aligned with both Kraz and Seginus; my
        relationships have a way of foundering under the
        weight of conflict that pretty much just develops when
        they persist for any length of time.


        Mark A. Holmes

        __________________________________________________
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      • mahtezcatpoc
        ... Jupiter and Pallas are currently aligned with Tso-Hia. The space shuttle Discovery is supposed to come back to Earth tomorrow, possibly landing in
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
          --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K. Rosenberg"
          <ye-stars@i...> wrote:
          > Hi Mark,
          >

          > From my Encyclopaedia:
          >
          > The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The
          > Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot),
          > which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta
          > (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab,
          > 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta
          > (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that
          > brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in
          > late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or
          > linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects
          > who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right
          > spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)),
          > which stood for the feudal subjects with different family
          > names. These chariots was laden with contributions &
          > offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism
          > came to represent luggage & transport; and because they
          > travelled at great speed, it also stood for the WIND.
          > (Corvus was "Great Storm Bird" in Sumer).


          Jupiter and Pallas are currently aligned with Tso-Hia.

          The space shuttle Discovery is supposed to come back to Earth
          tomorrow, possibly landing in California (at Edwards AFB near
          Rosamond) or New Mexico (at White Sands near Alamogordo) if weather at
          Cape Canaveral doesn't permit. There's been some concern over worn or
          damaged areas on the ship's body, like a protruding piece of fabric
          that one of the astronauts had to snip off, that might or might have
          posed a threat to the ship during re-entry.

          Peter Jennings has died; the TV anchors whose words the masses used to
          hang on (like Jennings) are passing from the scene.

          King Fahd of Saudi Arabia died; Crown Prince Abdullah is now King
          Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and other members of the Saudi Arabian royal
          family are said to be jockeying for power.

          Tso-Hia = "relatives of the king"?

          Mark A. Holmes
        • Diana K. Rosenberg
          Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000 From: mahtezcatpoc Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri ... I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That s
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
            Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000
            From: "mahtezcatpoc" <mahtezcatpoc@...>
            Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri

            > Mark wrote:
            >
            I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That's not also called Al Hecka, is
            it?

            No, that's a dim star - Mag 5.1 - it's just Zeta Corvi.

            The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust

            From my Chinese file (from Staal's "Stars of Jade":

            Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib32)* as
            part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided
            over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The
            common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided
            over longevity.

            *13 Libra 52 now

            From my book:

            In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, "Track of Dust:" Jupiter was
            here during the "dust bowl" drought of 1933 when a huge dust storm stretched
            from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes, and this was Mars when the drought's
            "worst dust storm" hit the Western and Southwestern states of the US in
            1935.

            Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
            mistranslation.

            Knowing you, I hesitated to send this info to you, because I know you'll
            pounce on the name
            and glue it to Zeta Corvi! :-)

            Love, Diana
          • Mark Andrew Holmes
            ... You have some kind of problem with that? Actually, we were discussing this some time ago, in a thread on Corvus, and I already have Zeta Corvi down as
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
              --- "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
              wrote:

              >
              > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:54:44 -0000
              > From: "mahtezcatpoc" <mahtezcatpoc@...>
              > Subject: Re: Zeta Tauri
              >
              > > Mark wrote:
              > >
              > I mean, I had Zeta *Corvi* as Al Hecka. That's not
              > also called Al Hecka, is
              > it?
              >
              > No, that's a dim star - Mag 5.1 - it's just Zeta
              > Corvi.
              >
              > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of
              > Dust
              >
              > From my Chinese file (from Staal's "Stars of Jade":
              >
              > Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only,
              > Zeta Corvi (13Lib32)* as
              > part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of
              > the road, and presided
              > over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming
              > and goings of armies. The
              > common people, however, referred to it as the coffin
              > and said it presided
              > over longevity.
              >
              > *13 Libra 52 now
              >
              > From my book:
              >
              > In ancient China, Zeta Corvi was Tchang-Cha, "Track
              > of Dust:" Jupiter was
              > here during the "dust bowl" drought of 1933 when a
              > huge dust storm stretched
              > from Oklahoma to the Great Lakes, and this was Mars
              > when the drought's
              > "worst dust storm" hit the Western and Southwestern
              > states of the US in
              > 1935.
              >
              > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm
              > pretty sure that is a
              > mistranslation.
              >
              > Knowing you, I hesitated to send this info to you,
              > because I know you'll
              > pounce on the name
              > and glue it to Zeta Corvi! :-)
              >


              You have some kind of problem with that?

              Actually, we were discussing this some time ago, in a
              thread on Corvus, and I already have Zeta Corvi down
              as Tchang-Cha in one of my other SolarFire star menus.
              I think putting down Zeta Corvi as Al Hecka may have
              been a mistake that came with the software.

              Mark A. Holmes

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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            • Astrocalypse
              ... From: Diana K. Rosenberg Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM ... Hello Diana, Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 18, 2006
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
                Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM

                > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust
                >
                > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
                > mistranslation.

                Hello Diana,

                Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different
                way of translating the sound.

                T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit. Both translations to track
                of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-). Thank you for pointing out
                track of dust is in better context though.

                Love,
                Cal
              • Diana K. Rosenberg
                Cal wrote: Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:18:46 -0000 From: Astrocalypse Subject: Zeta Corvi ... From: Diana K. Rosenberg
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                  Zeta Corvi

                  Cal wrote:

                    Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:18:46 -0000
                     From: "Astrocalypse" <astrocalypse@...>
                  Subject: Zeta Corvi

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@...>
                  Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 6:34 PM

                  > The Chinese had a name for it - Tchang-Cha, Track of Dust
                  >
                  > Allen has it as Chang Sha, a Long Sand-bank, but I'm pretty sure that is a
                  > mistranslation.

                  Hello Diana,

                  Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different
                  way of translating the sound.

                  Yes, I realized that Cal.

                  T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit.  Both translations to track
                  of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-).  Thank you for pointing out
                  track of dust is in better context though.

                  Wow - do you read Chinese?

                  Yes, I think dust or grit would fit best in this context - here's the full entry from Staal on the stars of Corvus: (positions are 1980 - add 17' for 2000, 21 minutes for

                  2006)

                  The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot), which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab, 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)), which stood for the feudal subjects with different family names. These chariots was laden with contributions & offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism came to represent luggage & transport; and because they travelled at great speed, it also stood for the wind. (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).

                  Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided over longevity.

                  Interesting that it stood for wind as well, because little Corvus is one of the highest-scoring storm and wind areas in the sky!

                  Love, Diana

                  By the way, Staal was using his own translation of Schlegel's classic "Uranographie Chinoise."

                  Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/

                • Diana K. Rosenberg
                  Mark wrote: You have some kind of problem with that? ====================== Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there and no-one
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                    Zeta Corvi

                    Mark wrote:

                    You have some kind of problem with that?
                    ======================
                    Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there
                    and no-one will know where it came from or what it means.

                    So many of the errors that have come down on star lists
                    are very hard or even impossible to change because
                    they have appeared in print and then get "established"
                    So much of what I have been doing has been to try to
                    "clear away the underbrush"

                    (In the case of Zeta Corvi, however, I guess it's OK)

                    Oculus Sagittarii for instance,

                    Facies M22 Sag NGC6656 in front of face 8CP21   - 0 13  -23 24  18 36   5.1     Gb
                     Oculus Sagittarii (misnomer – this is not the Archer’s eye): a nebulous globular cluster

                    The real Archer's eye is

                    Ain al Rami Nu1 Sagittarii  double      12CP28  0 07    -22 43  18 54   4.83    cK2
                     Archer's eye or face; with Nu2, nebulous double star

                    As for M22, "Facies" comes from the Latin facere, to make or do something;

                    One of the really interesting things here is that Facies is IN FRONT of the Archer's face, and it's nebulous...
                    so it's either messing up the Archer's aim, or forcing a choice of focus - as if Neptune was there...
                    or as if a microscope or telescope needed to be focused on something, and choices must be made -

                    So I think of Facies as a lens - you choose your own focus.

                    Does this make sense to you?

                    Love, Diana    

                    Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/

                  • mahtezcatpoc
                    ... something; ... of the ... focus - ... something, and ... Yeah, okay. Mark A. Holmes
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                      --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K. Rosenberg"
                      <ye-stars@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Mark wrote:
                      >
                      > You have some kind of problem with that?
                      > ======================
                      > Not really - but if that name turns up on a list, it will be out there
                      > and no-one will know where it came from or what it means.
                      >
                      > So many of the errors that have come down on star lists
                      > are very hard or even impossible to change because
                      > they have appeared in print and then get "established"
                      > So much of what I have been doing has been to try to
                      > "clear away the underbrush"
                      >
                      > (In the case of Zeta Corvi, however, I guess it's OK)
                      >
                      > Oculus Sagittarii for instance,
                      >
                      > Facies M22 Sag NGC6656 in front of face 8CP21 - 0 13 -23 24 18 36 5.1
                      > Gb
                      > Oculus Sagittarii (misnomer - this is not the Archer's eye): a nebulous
                      > globular cluster
                      >
                      > The real Archer's eye is
                      >
                      > Ain al Rami Nu1 Sagittarii double 12CP28 0 07 -22 43 18 54 4.83
                      > cK2
                      > Archer's eye or face; with Nu2, nebulous double star
                      >
                      > As for M22, "Facies" comes from the Latin facere, to make or do
                      something;
                      >
                      > One of the really interesting things here is that Facies is IN FRONT
                      of the
                      > Archer's face, and it's nebulous...
                      > so it's either messing up the Archer's aim, or forcing a choice of
                      focus -
                      > as if Neptune was there...
                      > or as if a microscope or telescope needed to be focused on
                      something, and
                      > choices must be made -
                      >
                      > So I think of Facies as a lens - you choose your own focus.
                      >
                      > Does this make sense to you?
                      >
                      > Love, Diana
                      >
                      > Website: http://pw1.netcom.com/~ye-stars/
                      >


                      Yeah, okay.

                      Mark A. Holmes
                    • Astrocalypse
                      Zeta Corvi----- Original Message ----- From: Diana K. Rosenberg Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM C1 Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 20, 2006
                        Zeta Corvi
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:22 PM
                         
                        C1>Just want to say that Tchang-Cha and Chang Sha are the same, just different way of translating the sound.
                         
                        D>Yes, I realized that Cal.
                         
                        C2>Translation is notoriously difficult.  I have been wrestling with the meaning of 'life style' by Adler ("Lebensstil") and was told that the translation from German is correct (indeed that's what the online translators say).  In German, the word apparently has a deeper meaning which is simply not translatable in a single word.  However, I would argue that 'personal perspective' would be a closer translation, I don't know if any German speakers on the list would agree with me on this !  Anyone ?? <g>
                         
                        C1>T/chang means long; C/Sha means sand/dust/grit.  Both translations to track of dust and long sand-bank are correct :-).  Thank you for pointing out track of dust is in better context though.
                         
                        D>Wow - do you read Chinese?
                         
                        C2>Yes, I do.  However, I would most probably have translated Tchang Sha literally as 'long <trail of> sand' myself.
                         
                        <D>Yes, I think dust or grit would fit best in this context - here's the full entry from Staal on the stars of Corvus: (positions are 1980 - add 17' for 2000, 21 minutes for 2006)
                         
                        <C2> I have 'Chariot' marked as spanning 17 degrees and as the 28th Chinese Constellation.
                         
                        <D>The last house of the Great Red Bird was called Tchin, The Chariot, (also called T'ien-Tche, The Celestial Chariot), which was our constellation of Corvus, the Crow: Beta (17Lib05), Gamma (Geniah, 10 Lib27), Delta (Algorab, 13Lib10), Epsilon (11Lib23), Alpha (Alchiba, 11Lib58), & Eta (13Lib32) Corvi), which represented the chariots that brought the feudal princes to the great feast of pleasure in late summer. Eta (13Lib32) was Tso-Hia, the left spindle, or linch-pin of the chariot; it stood for the feudal subjects who had the same family name as the Emperor's; the right spindle or linch-pin was Alpha Corvi (Alchiba-11Lib58)), which stood for the feudal subjects with different family names. These chariots was laden with contributions & offerings of the subjects of the Emperor; thus this asterism came to represent luggage & transport; and because they travelled at great speed, it also stood for the wind. (Corvus was “Great Storm Bird” in Sumer).
                         
                        <C2>I have the 'pinyin' translation written as 'zhen' for Tchin.  Ann Wright has Epsilon down for Minkar and Beta for Kraz.  At least one astronomy program ignored Eta. 
                         
                        <D>Tchang-Cha, The Track of Dust was one star only, Zeta Corvi (13Lib 32); as part of the "chariot" asterism it was the dust of the road, and presided over chariots, harnesses, luggage, and the coming and goings of armies. The common people, however, referred to it as the coffin and said it presided over longevity.
                         
                        <C2>I am entirely ignorant of Chinese astronomy and am just trying to acquire more information but I do have a teeny star map with Chinese constellations (in Chinese) marked on it.  However, I see Vindematrix (Jiao, 1st, 12 degrees) is fairly close by, so calling it a coffin is not that much of a stretch :-)
                         
                        D>Interesting that it stood for wind as well, because little Corvus is one of the highest-scoring storm and wind areas in the sky!
                         
                        D>By the way, Staal was using his own translation of Schlegel's classic "Uranographie Chinoise."
                         
                        C2>Hmmm.  Uranographie chinoise, ou, Preuves directes que lastronomie primitive est originaire de la Chine by Gustave Schlegel.  It is out of print (not that I read French anyway ;-)) but I will bear this in mind for the future. 
                         
                        Thanks, Diana.
                         
                        Love,
                        Cal
                         
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