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  • msbhavens1
    I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of a problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from sunset or when they are couning
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 10, 2006
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      I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of a
      problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from sunset or
      when they are couning from midnight?

      MissB


      --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Diana K Rosenberg"
      <fixed.stars@...> wrote:
      >
      > MissB and Mark wrote
      >
      > Re: I was wrong
      > Posted by: "mahtezcatpoc" mahtezcatpoc@... mahtezcatpoc
      > Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 3:37 pm (PDT)
      >
      > --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "msbhavens1" <msbhavens1@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Exactly! and why there is so much confusion since we count days
      > > differently now. When did that change anyway? anyone know?
      > >
      > > that seems like something that might still be country to country?
      > > possibly?
      > >
      > > MissB
      >
      > I guess it's one of the changes that was brought about worldwide
      through
      > Western European imperialism. As far as I know, nobody reckons the
      beginning
      > of a day from anything except midnight except adherents of Judaism,
      Bahaism
      > and certain other religions for their own ritual purposes.
      >
      > Mark A. Holmes
      > =========================
      > I'm assuming the original use of sunset as the start of a new day
      > was that it was VISIBLE.
      >
      > And if a day (i.e. daylight) ended at sunset, then obviously the
      > next (new) day had to start there as well.
      >
      > No?
      >
      > Love, Diana
      >
    • awc99@mindspring.com
      ... HI, What upholds reasoning would be the invention of a reliable timepiece. from(ABOUT/Inventions) In the early-to-mid-14th century, large mechanical clocks
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 10, 2006
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        At 12:25 PM 10/10/2006, Miss B wrote:

        I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of a
        problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from sunset or
        when they are couning from midnight?

        MissB


        HI,
         What upholds reasoning would be the invention of a reliable timepiece.

        from(ABOUT/Inventions)
        In the early-to-mid-14th century, large mechanical clocks began to appear in the towers of several large Italian cities. There is no evidence or record of the working models preceding these public clocks that were weight-driven and regulated by a verge-and-foliot escapement. Verge-and-foliot mechanisms reigned for more than 300 years with variations in the shape of the foliot. 

        (From Calendar)
        We all appear to live in the same day by our local calendars at the moment it is midnight at the International Date Line.  To avoid this confusion of people living in 2 days at the same time a Universal Day was created by International Convention in 1884 in Washington DC, USA.  * This Universal Day operates to World Time or Universal Time at Greenwich, England; historically referred to as GMT (Greenwich Mean Time).  It begins at midnight GMT (I.E. 12 noon at the International Date Line)



        * At the international Convention In Washington DC, October 1884:the following important principles were established:
        1. It was desirable to adopt a single world meridian to replace the numerous ones already in existence.
        2. The Meridian passing through the principal Transit Instrument at the Observatory at Greenwich was to be the 'initial meridian'.
        3. That all longitude would be calculated both east and west from this meridian up to 180°.
        4. All countries would adopt a universal day.
        5. The universal day would be a Mean Solar Day, beginning at the Mean Midnight at Greenwich and counted on a 24 hour clock.
        6. That nautical and astronomical days everywhere would begin at mean midnight.
        7. All technical studies to regulate and extend the application of the decimal system to the division of time and space would be supported.

        So, there ya have it, sunset was probably considered the beginning of day until the Wash. DC convention.

         
        Arthyr the timester
      • awc99@mindspring.com
        Hi, In addendum, one more note from Wikipedia Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) was established in 1675 as an aid to
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 10, 2006
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          Hi,
          In addendum, one more note from Wikipedia

          Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) was established in 1675 as an aid to determine longitude at sea by mariners. The first time zone in the world was established by British railways on December 1, 1847 ­ with GMT hand-carried on chronometers.

          At 12:25 PM 10/10/2006, you wrote:

          I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of a
          problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from sunset or
          when they are couning from midnight?

          MissB
        • msbhavens1
          1675 makes more sense as I know the continental Congress (Franklin, adams and taht group) used the midnight to midnight style reckoning.I suspect it must have
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 10, 2006
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            1675 makes more sense as I know the continental Congress (Franklin,
            adams and taht group) used the midnight to midnight style reckoning.I
            suspect it must have been in use a bit previous to this as usually
            they dont make a law until something is either practised or in
            contention.

            MissB



            --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, awc99@... wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            > In addendum, one more note from Wikipedia
            >
            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwich_Mean_Time>Greenwich
            > Mean Time (GMT) was established in 1675 as an aid
            > to determine longitude at sea by mariners. The
            > first time zone in the world was established by
            > British
            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways>railways
            > on
            > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_1>December
            > 1, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1847>1847 ­ with
            > GMT hand-carried on
            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronometer>chronometers.
            >
            > At 12:25 PM 10/10/2006, you wrote:
            >
            > >I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of a
            > >problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from sunset
            or
            > >when they are couning from midnight?
            > >
            > >MissB
            >
          • Gabriella Mittelman
            Hello, I looked up in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day there it also says : Boundaries of the day For most diurnal animals, including Homo sapiens,
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 14, 2006
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              Hello,

              I looked up in wikipedia
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day

              there it also says :
              Boundaries of the day
              For most diurnal animals, including Homo sapiens, the day naturally
              begins at dawn and ends at sunset. Humans, with our cultural norms
              and scientific knowledge, have supplanted Nature with several
              different conceptions of the day's boundaries. The Jewish day begins
              at either sunset or at nightfall (when three second-magnitude stars
              appear). Medieval Europe followed this tradition, known as
              Florentine reckoning

              So the grandpapa said : a grandson was born on Saturday night.
              Since Saturday was the 17th of April , and the night began after the
              first free stars were seen in the sky - .

              Gaby


              --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, awc99@... wrote:
              >
              > At 12:25 PM 10/10/2006, Miss B wrote:
              >
              > >I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of a
              > >problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from
              sunset or
              > >when they are couning from midnight?
              > >
              > >MissB
              >
              >
              > HI,
              > What upholds reasoning would be the invention of a reliable
              timepiece.
              >
              > from(ABOUT/Inventions)
              > In the early-to-mid-14th century, large
              > mechanical clocks began to appear in the towers
              > of several large Italian cities. There is no
              > evidence or record of the working models
              > preceding these public clocks that were
              > weight-driven and regulated by a verge-and-foliot
              > escapement. Verge-and-foliot mechanisms reigned
              > for more than 300 years with variations in the shape of the foliot.
              >
              > (From Calendar)
              > We all appear to live in the same day by our
              > local calendars at the moment it is midnight at
              > the International Date Line. To avoid this
              > confusion of people living in 2 days at the same
              > time a Universal Day was created by
              >
              <http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/conference.htm>International
              > Convention in 1884 in Washington DC, USA. * This
              > Universal Day operates to World Time or Universal
              > Time at Greenwich, England; historically referred
              > to as GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). It begins at
              > midnight GMT (I.E. 12 noon at the International Date Line)
              >
              >
              >
              > * At the international Convention In Washington
              > DC, October 1884:the following important principles were
              established:
              > * It was desirable to adopt a single world
              > meridian to replace the numerous ones already in existence.
              > * The Meridian passing through the principal
              > Transit Instrument at the Observatory at
              > Greenwich was to be the 'initial meridian'.
              > * That all longitude would be calculated both
              > east and west from this meridian up to 180°.
              > * All countries would adopt a universal day.
              > * The universal day would be a Mean Solar
              > Day, beginning at the Mean Midnight at Greenwich
              > and counted on a 24 hour clock.
              > * That nautical and astronomical days
              > everywhere would begin at mean midnight.
              > * All technical studies to regulate and
              > extend the application of the decimal system to
              > the division of time and space would be supported.
              >
              > So, there ya have it, sunset was probably
              > considered the beginning of day until the Wash. DC convention.
              >
              >
              > Arthyr the timester
              >
            • govanderavi
              ... to next midnight is wrong. The Day starts with Sunrise, hence from one sunrise to next sunrise should be the day as practiced by Hindu Astrolgers.Which is
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 14, 2006
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                --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriella Mittelman"
                <gabymitt@...> wrote:
                >As an astrolger In my opinion the custom of day starting at midnigh
                to next midnight is wrong. The Day starts with Sunrise, hence from
                one sunrise to next sunrise should be the day as practiced by Hindu
                Astrolgers.Which is the correct postion astronomically also
                Cheers
                Ravi Govande
                > Hello,
                >
                > I looked up in wikipedia
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day
                >
                > there it also says :
                > Boundaries of the day
                > For most diurnal animals, including Homo sapiens, the day naturally
                > begins at dawn and ends at sunset. Humans, with our cultural norms
                > and scientific knowledge, have supplanted Nature with several
                > different conceptions of the day's boundaries. The Jewish day
                begins
                > at either sunset or at nightfall (when three second-magnitude stars
                > appear). Medieval Europe followed this tradition, known as
                > Florentine reckoning
                >
                > So the grandpapa said : a grandson was born on Saturday night.
                > Since Saturday was the 17th of April , and the night began after
                the
                > first free stars were seen in the sky - .
                >
                > Gaby
                >
                >
                > --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, awc99@ wrote:
                > >
                > > At 12:25 PM 10/10/2006, Miss B wrote:
                > >
                > > >I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more of
                a
                > > >problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from
                > sunset or
                > > >when they are couning from midnight?
                > > >
                > > >MissB
                > >
                > >
                > > HI,
                > > What upholds reasoning would be the invention of a reliable
                > timepiece.
                > >
                > > from(ABOUT/Inventions)
                > > In the early-to-mid-14th century, large
                > > mechanical clocks began to appear in the towers
                > > of several large Italian cities. There is no
                > > evidence or record of the working models
                > > preceding these public clocks that were
                > > weight-driven and regulated by a verge-and-foliot
                > > escapement. Verge-and-foliot mechanisms reigned
                > > for more than 300 years with variations in the shape of the
                foliot.
                > >
                > > (From Calendar)
                > > We all appear to live in the same day by our
                > > local calendars at the moment it is midnight at
                > > the International Date Line. To avoid this
                > > confusion of people living in 2 days at the same
                > > time a Universal Day was created by
                > >
                > <http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/conference.htm>International
                > > Convention in 1884 in Washington DC, USA. * This
                > > Universal Day operates to World Time or Universal
                > > Time at Greenwich, England; historically referred
                > > to as GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). It begins at
                > > midnight GMT (I.E. 12 noon at the International Date Line)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > * At the international Convention In Washington
                > > DC, October 1884:the following important principles were
                > established:
                > > * It was desirable to adopt a single world
                > > meridian to replace the numerous ones already in existence.
                > > * The Meridian passing through the principal
                > > Transit Instrument at the Observatory at
                > > Greenwich was to be the 'initial meridian'.
                > > * That all longitude would be calculated both
                > > east and west from this meridian up to 180°.
                > > * All countries would adopt a universal day.
                > > * The universal day would be a Mean Solar
                > > Day, beginning at the Mean Midnight at Greenwich
                > > and counted on a 24 hour clock.
                > > * That nautical and astronomical days
                > > everywhere would begin at mean midnight.
                > > * All technical studies to regulate and
                > > extend the application of the decimal system to
                > > the division of time and space would be supported.
                > >
                > > So, there ya have it, sunset was probably
                > > considered the beginning of day until the Wash. DC convention.
                > >
                > >
                > > Arthyr the timester
                > >
                >
              • awc99@mindspring.com
                Oh Ravi, Why must your thinking be so rigid? There are so many calendars. There is the civil calendar by which you speak - sunrise to sunrise. But there also
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 14, 2006
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                  Oh Ravi,

                  Why must your thinking be so rigid?

                  There are so many calendars.
                  There is the civil calendar by which you speak - sunrise to sunrise.
                  But there also temple calendars that require knowledge of the Moon's
                  monthly sojourn.
                  And lest we forget that in the origin of all, creation came from darkness,
                  and we must pay homage to that.
                  Hence, the darkened skies represent symbolic time as the beginning
                  of the new day.. . . easier to read the starts at night as well.
                  Remember we can see farther
                  at night than we can by day.

                  Arthyr the human calendar


                  At 08:36 AM 10/14/2006, Ravi wrote:

                  > >As an astrolger In my opinion the custom of day starting at midnigh
                  >to next midnight is wrong. The Day starts with Sunrise, hence from
                  >one sunrise to next sunrise should be the day as practiced by Hindu
                  >Astrolgers.Which is the correct postion astronomically also
                  >Cheers
                  >Ravi Govande
                • msbhavens1
                  since that isn t how calendars adn clocks currently run, it would certainly not suit you when attempting to do charts. which is the goal of the information
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 14, 2006
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                    since that isn't how calendars adn clocks currently run, it would
                    certainly not suit you when attempting to do charts. which is the
                    goal of the information here. so whether or not you have a preference
                    isn't the question, the question is what is the custom so one can
                    discover the moment of birth to do the chart.

                    MissB


                    --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "govanderavi" <govanderavi@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriella Mittelman"
                    > <gabymitt@> wrote:
                    > >As an astrolger In my opinion the custom of day starting at
                    midnigh
                    > to next midnight is wrong. The Day starts with Sunrise, hence from
                    > one sunrise to next sunrise should be the day as practiced by Hindu
                    > Astrolgers.Which is the correct postion astronomically also
                    > Cheers
                    > Ravi Govande
                    > > Hello,
                    > >
                    > > I looked up in wikipedia
                    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day
                    > >
                    > > there it also says :
                    > > Boundaries of the day
                    > > For most diurnal animals, including Homo sapiens, the day
                    naturally
                    > > begins at dawn and ends at sunset. Humans, with our cultural
                    norms
                    > > and scientific knowledge, have supplanted Nature with several
                    > > different conceptions of the day's boundaries. The Jewish day
                    > begins
                    > > at either sunset or at nightfall (when three second-magnitude
                    stars
                    > > appear). Medieval Europe followed this tradition, known as
                    > > Florentine reckoning
                    > >
                    > > So the grandpapa said : a grandson was born on Saturday night.
                    > > Since Saturday was the 17th of April , and the night began after
                    > the
                    > > first free stars were seen in the sky - .
                    > >
                    > > Gaby
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, awc99@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > At 12:25 PM 10/10/2006, Miss B wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > >I dunno, but I want to know when it ended, cause that is more
                    of
                    > a
                    > > > >problem. how do you know when someone is counting days from
                    > > sunset or
                    > > > >when they are couning from midnight?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >MissB
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > HI,
                    > > > What upholds reasoning would be the invention of a reliable
                    > > timepiece.
                    > > >
                    > > > from(ABOUT/Inventions)
                    > > > In the early-to-mid-14th century, large
                    > > > mechanical clocks began to appear in the towers
                    > > > of several large Italian cities. There is no
                    > > > evidence or record of the working models
                    > > > preceding these public clocks that were
                    > > > weight-driven and regulated by a verge-and-foliot
                    > > > escapement. Verge-and-foliot mechanisms reigned
                    > > > for more than 300 years with variations in the shape of the
                    > foliot.
                    > > >
                    > > > (From Calendar)
                    > > > We all appear to live in the same day by our
                    > > > local calendars at the moment it is midnight at
                    > > > the International Date Line. To avoid this
                    > > > confusion of people living in 2 days at the same
                    > > > time a Universal Day was created by
                    > > >
                    > >
                    <http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/info/conference.htm>International
                    > > > Convention in 1884 in Washington DC, USA. * This
                    > > > Universal Day operates to World Time or Universal
                    > > > Time at Greenwich, England; historically referred
                    > > > to as GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). It begins at
                    > > > midnight GMT (I.E. 12 noon at the International Date Line)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > * At the international Convention In Washington
                    > > > DC, October 1884:the following important principles were
                    > > established:
                    > > > * It was desirable to adopt a single world
                    > > > meridian to replace the numerous ones already in existence.
                    > > > * The Meridian passing through the principal
                    > > > Transit Instrument at the Observatory at
                    > > > Greenwich was to be the 'initial meridian'.
                    > > > * That all longitude would be calculated both
                    > > > east and west from this meridian up to 180°.
                    > > > * All countries would adopt a universal day.
                    > > > * The universal day would be a Mean Solar
                    > > > Day, beginning at the Mean Midnight at Greenwich
                    > > > and counted on a 24 hour clock.
                    > > > * That nautical and astronomical days
                    > > > everywhere would begin at mean midnight.
                    > > > * All technical studies to regulate and
                    > > > extend the application of the decimal system to
                    > > > the division of time and space would be supported.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, there ya have it, sunset was probably
                    > > > considered the beginning of day until the Wash. DC convention.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Arthyr the timester
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Trishmare7@aol.com
                    Beautifully put Arthyr. Or, as the group Chicago used to sing; Does anybody really know what time it is? Trish In a message dated 10/14/2006 12:59:33 P.M.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 15, 2006
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                      Beautifully put Arthyr.  Or, as the group "Chicago" used to sing; Does anybody really know what time it is?"
                       
                      Trish
                       
                      In a message dated 10/14/2006 12:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, awc99@... writes:
                      There are so many calendars.
                      There is the civil calendar by which you speak - sunrise to sunrise.
                      But there also temple calendars that require knowledge of the Moon's
                      monthly sojourn.
                      And lest we forget that in the origin of all, creation came from darkness,
                      and we must pay homage to that.
                      Hence, the darkened skies represent symbolic time as the beginning
                      of the new day.. . . easier to read the starts at night as well.
                      Remember we can see farther
                      at night than we can by day.

                      Arthyr the human calendar
                       
                    • awc99@mindspring.com
                      Thanks Trish ! What s funny? I actually was singing that song to myself when I was writing this piece! LOL :-) Arthyr the lyricist
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 15, 2006
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                        Thanks Trish !

                        What's funny? I actually was singing that song to
                        myself when I was writing this piece! LOL  :-)

                        Arthyr the lyricist

                        At 08:50 AM 10/15/2006, you wrote:
                        Beautifully put Arthyr.  Or, as the group "Chicago" used to sing; Does anybody really know what time it is?"
                         
                        Trish
                         
                        In a message dated 10/14/2006 12:59:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, awc99@... writes:
                        There are so many calendars.
                        There is the civil calendar by which you speak - sunrise to sunrise.
                        But there also temple calendars that require knowledge of the Moon's
                        monthly sojourn.
                        And lest we forget that in the origin of all, creation came from darkness,
                        and we must pay homage to that.
                        Hence, the darkened skies represent symbolic time as the beginning
                        of the new day.. . . easier to read the starts at night as well.
                        Remember we can see farther
                        at night than we can by day.

                        Arthyr the human calendar

                      • Trishmare7@aol.com
                        LOL!--oh, that s great. I can just see it! (Or is that, hear it?). Trish In a message dated 10/15/2006 12:21:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 15, 2006
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                          LOL!--oh, that's great.  I can just see it! (Or is that, hear it?).
                           
                          Trish
                           
                          In a message dated 10/15/2006 12:21:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, awc99@... writes:
                          What's funny? I actually was singing that song to
                          myself when I was writing this piece! LOL  :-)

                          Arthyr the lyricist
                           
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