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Re: [thefixedstars] Re: Earlier Parans?

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  • Arthyr
    Hi Peter, Have you explored any of O. Neugebauer s works? If you are acquainted with mathematical formulae his works may be of some interests. As it stands the
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 3, 2006
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      Hi Peter,

      Have you explored any of O. Neugebauer's works? If you are acquainted with
      mathematical formulae his works may be of some interests. As it stands the
      early date from Euclid (300BCE) leaves room for two more centuries to
      develop ancient principles by men like Archimedes and Apollonius. By the
      time Ptolemy (close to the end of the Hellenistic period)
      arrives at the scene he comprised most of the astronomical achievements
      which could be reached with the mathematical methods of antiquity.

      Heliacal risings had to date back to the earliest observations as the stars
      were the actual markers for the daily and yearly calendars. But "Parans"
      were not noted as such because it may heve been a simple matter of fact.
      Certainly not as important as the simultaneous rising and setting of the
      Sun/Moon or perhaps two planets rising and setting at the same time.

      Remember, the Babylonians were only interested with planetary appearances,
      length of appearance, dissappearances and their length. . . nothing more
      sophisticated than that. Certainly, they must have watched the evening sky
      and noted the circular motion as the constellations rose, culminated and
      eventually set. But to believe that they did anything more than that is
      only conjecture and wouldn't stand any reality check.

      Naturally, the projection of the revolution of the diurnal motion was of
      interest long before Archimedes or even later by Hipparchus, but the tools
      were not available to do so properly.
      Too, it was Ptolemy (150 CE) that gave us the Ascendant or "Horoscopos"
      that allowed astronomers a starting position to extend the "chord tables"
      set forth by Hipparchus some 300 yeqars prior.

      If there are any earlier sources they haven't been discovered as yet.
      Perhaps in the future some student from the Eastern School of Antiquities
      will delve into the resources in the British Museum. Until then, concepts
      in vogue today and those principles that were developed during Greco-Roman
      antiquity should not be assumed "a priori" to find counterparts in
      Babylonian texts.

      Arthyr


      At 04:05 PM 9/3/2006 -0700, Peter wrote:
      > Dear Arthyr!
      > Thanks a lot for your useful comments, I did not find
      >anything earlier either, but I just wondering where
      >did they get the idea of having the 24-hour parans and
      >the heliacal rising, and setting, there must have been
      >an earlier source; Yours Cat-CH-Keys P.AEther
      >
      >-- msbhavens1 <msbhavens1@...> wrote:
      >
      >>
      >> what about the egyptians? Just wondering as they
      >> seemed far more into
      >> the Trig. MissB
      >>
      >> --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, Arthyr
      >> <awc99@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> > Hello Peter Kecskés,
      >> >
      >> > At 11:53 PM 9/2/2006 +0000, Peter wrote:
      >> > > Dear All !
      >> > > Does anyone know what are the earliest sources
      >> regarding parans
      >> > >besides Maternus, Manilius, Hypparchus, Ptolemy,
      >> Eudoxos.
      >> >
    • PeterKecskés
      Thanks again for your valuable insights; I do not have Neugebauer s books, but I have some books by hungarian egyptologists, math-historians and general
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 4, 2006
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        Thanks again for your valuable insights; I do not
        have Neugebauer's books, but I have some books by
        hungarian egyptologists, math-historians and general
        astro-history books in english. Fagan has some really
        good insights regarding the heliacal phenomena; but
        I'm still searching... Yours Peter

        --- Arthyr <awc99@...> wrote:

        > Hi Peter,
        >
        > Have you explored any of O. Neugebauer's works? If
        > you are acquainted with
        > mathematical formulae his works may be of some
        > interests. As it stands the
        > early date from Euclid (300BCE) leaves room for two
        > more centuries to
        > develop ancient principles by men like Archimedes
        > and Apollonius. By the
        > time Ptolemy (close to the end of the Hellenistic
        > period)
        > arrives at the scene he comprised most of the
        > astronomical achievements
        > which could be reached with the mathematical methods
        > of antiquity.
        >
        > Heliacal risings had to date back to the earliest
        > observations as the stars
        > were the actual markers for the daily and yearly
        > calendars. But "Parans"
        > were not noted as such because it may heve been a
        > simple matter of fact.
        > Certainly not as important as the simultaneous
        > rising and setting of the
        > Sun/Moon or perhaps two planets rising and setting
        > at the same time.
        >
        > Remember, the Babylonians were only interested with
        > planetary appearances,
        > length of appearance, dissappearances and their
        > length. . . nothing more
        > sophisticated than that. Certainly, they must have
        > watched the evening sky
        > and noted the circular motion as the constellations
        > rose, culminated and
        > eventually set. But to believe that they did
        > anything more than that is
        > only conjecture and wouldn't stand any reality
        > check.
        >
        > Naturally, the projection of the revolution of the
        > diurnal motion was of
        > interest long before Archimedes or even later by
        > Hipparchus, but the tools
        > were not available to do so properly.
        > Too, it was Ptolemy (150 CE) that gave us the
        > Ascendant or "Horoscopos"
        > that allowed astronomers a starting position to
        > extend the "chord tables"
        > set forth by Hipparchus some 300 yeqars prior.
        >
        > If there are any earlier sources they haven't been
        > discovered as yet.
        > Perhaps in the future some student from the Eastern
        > School of Antiquities
        > will delve into the resources in the British Museum.
        > Until then, concepts
        > in vogue today and those principles that were
        > developed during Greco-Roman
        > antiquity should not be assumed "a priori" to find
        > counterparts in
        > Babylonian texts.
        >
        > Arthyr
        >
        >
        > At 04:05 PM 9/3/2006 -0700, Peter wrote:
        > > Dear Arthyr!
        > > Thanks a lot for your useful comments, I did not
        > find
        > >anything earlier either, but I just wondering where
        > >did they get the idea of having the 24-hour parans
        > and
        > >the heliacal rising, and setting, there must have
        > been
        > >an earlier source; Yours Cat-CH-Keys P.AEther
        > >
        > >-- msbhavens1 <msbhavens1@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >> what about the egyptians? Just wondering as they
        > >> seemed far more into
        > >> the Trig. MissB
        > >>
        > >> --- In thefixedstars@yahoogroups.com, Arthyr
        > >> <awc99@...> wrote:
        > >> >
        > >> > Hello Peter Kecskés,
        > >> >
        > >> > At 11:53 PM 9/2/2006 +0000, Peter wrote:
        > >> > > Dear All !
        > >> > > Does anyone know what are the earliest
        > sources
        > >> regarding parans
        > >> > >besides Maternus, Manilius, Hypparchus,
        > Ptolemy,
        > >> Eudoxos.
        > >> >
        >


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      • msbhavens1
        Arthyr wrote: Egyptian and Babylonian scholars alike used a repeating numbering system that was used to acquire math solutions. If the solution of dividing
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 4, 2006
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          Arthyr wrote:
          "Egyptian and Babylonian scholars alike used a repeating numbering
          system that was used to acquire math solutions. If the solution of
          dividing 60 by 5 were required, they added (or doubled) five until the
          number 60 could be found therein."

          MissBHavens aka Beth replies:
          I understood the Babylonian number system to be a base 60, but I
          didn't realize that the egyptions were using the same numerical
          system. I understand chords etc. I'm just not always familiar with who
          did what first. some of my ancient history has gaps, some baby gaps,
          some super gaps, but gaps none the less, Thank you,

          MissB
        • Arthyr
          Hi Ms B aka Beth :-) Actually the Sumerians invented the base 60 system (our clock and compass figures for example) as well as a decimal (base 10 system)
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 4, 2006
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            Hi Ms "B" aka Beth :-)

            Actually the Sumerians invented the base 60 system
            (our clock and compass figures for example) as well as a decimal (base 10
            system)
            Their ingenuity was in the use of both systems within a single math framework.

            Clever those guys. . .

            Arthyr

            At 01:01 AM 9/5/2006 +0000, Ms "B" aka Beth wrote:
            >Arthyr wrote:
            >"Egyptian and Babylonian scholars alike used a repeating numbering
            >system that was used to acquire math solutions. If the solution of
            >dividing 60 by 5 were required, they added (or doubled) five until the
            >number 60 could be found therein."
            >
            >MissBHavens aka Beth replies:
            >I understood the Babylonian number system to be a base 60, but I
            >didn't realize that the egyptions were using the same numerical
            >system. I understand chords etc. I'm just not always familiar with who
            >did what first. some of my ancient history has gaps, some baby gaps,
            >some super gaps, but gaps none the less, Thank you,
            >
            >MissB
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Diana K Rosenberg
            I am not an expert in early mathematical astronomy/astrology, but one of the best books I ever read on the subject is A History of Astronomy by A Pannekoek -
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 4, 2006
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              No Earlier Parans?

              I am not an expert in early mathematical astronomy/astrology,
              but one of the best books I ever read on the subject is
              "A History of Astronomy" by A Pannekoek - I believe it is still
              available in a Dover reprint of an English translation

              I recommend it most highly

              Love, Diana

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