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Current INVADERS SERIES

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  • Terry Hooper [aka:T. Hooper-Scharf
    Well,several people tell me the series IS ending. If correct then its Marvel doings its usual cack-handed cancellation job. You really need to see how 12
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 6, 2005
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      Well,several people tell me the series IS ending. If correct then
      its Marvel doings its usual cack-handed cancellation job. You really
      need to see how 12 issues go -series tend to start picking up after
      #6 or so -in the past good series have been cancelled BEFORE good
      sales figures have been turned in and viewed.

      I have one criticism of this new series which seems to be echoed by
      others [my apologies if this upsets anyone]. The artwork. It looks
      like colour work has been done and then a line of varying,limited
      thickness,used to put in any detail. Its stopped me from totally
      enjoying the series BUT it may have sold the series to others.

      I think NEW INVADERS had a great deal of potential but it just
      hasn't been allowed to develop. There is,of course,another negative
      point that several people have commented on.

      Its the idea that this group of heroes [or anti-heroes in the mould
      of The Man With No Name from Spaghetti Westerns]are using over the
      top violence to prove "Might Makes Right" and this at a time of much
      anti-war feeling. It could be that this may be responsible for any
      negative reader reaction and poor sales -IF that is the reason for
      the series cancellation.

      Pity. I wish All Star Squadron and Liberty Legion and Invaders
      [1940s version]were still going!
      Terry
    • Greg Schienke
      ... Actually, in fairness, the way the math of marketing works today, any company that can afford a marketing company knows the fate of a comic with the orders
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 7, 2005
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        "Terry Hooper" wrote:
        > Well,several people tell me the series IS ending. If correct then
        > its Marvel doings its usual cack-handed cancellation job. You really
        > need to see how 12 issues go -series tend to start picking up after
        > #6 or so -in the past good series have been cancelled BEFORE
        > good sales figures have been turned in and viewed.

        Actually, in fairness, the way the math of marketing works today, any
        company that can afford a marketing company knows the fate of a comic
        with the orders for the first issue. That comics aren't cancelled
        after solicitation of the first issue more often, I think, is because
        (1) there is a chance to recoup some of the investment for the writing
        and drawing of the comic solicited and (2) blind faith that the
        marketing calculations will be proven wrong.

        For the first reason, let's not forget that because comics are
        non-returnable, the companies aren't losing money, or if they are, not
        that much money, with the first two issues, at least, because when a
        comic store has its order delivered, it pays for the comics even
        before they are sold. It is the dealer who will lose money if the
        comics aren't sold, not Marvel. Eventually, predictably, dealer
        orders will decline so much that there is no money to be made to
        justify the cost of production, and then the comic is cancelled.

        This system is very different than the pre-direct market days, when
        comic companies would appear to throw titles against the wall and see
        what would stick. Back when publishers had to wait a couple of months
        before they saw the sales figures, there was time for a comic to build
        an audience. It is in that kind of environment that produces
        wonderful, unexpectedly good comics, like Skull, the Slayer; Sugar and
        Spike; Fleischer and Aparo's Spectre; the original Defenders; and Tomb
        of Dracula.

        For my second reason, let's not forget that you have creative people
        hoping to expand the medium. Does it really take very long for a
        person who reads comic books to see a new title solicited and know it
        is doomed? We all do it, and we don't have marketing data to back us
        up. After I read Invaders #0, I knew that the book wasn't going to
        last, though more for the writing than the art. Still, the people who
        make the decisions don't want the comics they put out to crash and
        burn, they want them to succeed, so they work their magic and pull
        strings and get the comic out, hoping the public will show up.

        Now, I've been down this road before regarding marketing (the only
        topics that get people more riled up is when a discussion involving
        copyright and/or trademark break out). I understand why people get
        upset, they want comic books to be "ART" in all its glory, where
        writers and artists are free to produce what they want as they want.
        Besides the simple fact, that no creator has ever been allowed that
        freedom regarding the use of company-owned characters, when Marvel on
        its Website positions itself as "one of the world's most prominent
        character-based entertainment companies[, with its] focus[ ] in four
        areas: entertainment (Marvel Studios), licensing, publishing and toys
        (Toy Biz)," I think you see the problem: Publishing ranks third.

        Back on topic now, here are my general thoughts about this series. It
        is apparent that it was created, albeit a few years after the fact,
        because of the success of JSA. The problem was, IMO, that whereas JSA
        generally is able to provide stories and characterizations that appeal
        to both long-time and newer readers, New Invaders never felt
        approachable along any of those paths. While it can be said that most
        Marvel heroes from the Golden Age had no personalities, that given to
        Blazing Skull, for instance, felt more like writer's conceit than
        something organic from research, for instance. Similarily, while from
        a marketing aspect, the use of "the Invaders," makes sense, tying the
        name into current events, as such, makes the stories offensive,
        depending on your viewpoint regarding U.S. policy, and, even if they
        were the finest stories written this side of "For the Man Who Has
        Everything," they will still become time-locked anamolies.

        If Marvel really wants to cater to the JSA fan base, I think they
        would have been better served to resurrect the "All-Winners Squad"
        name and give us new stories featuring the remaining Golden Age
        heroes, including Captain America (if Spider-Man and Wolverine can
        appear in every Marvel comic, give Cap another appearance or two).
        The Vision could return, maybe an amalgam of the GA and android
        versions. Though I despise the legacy aspect of JSA (a rather
        pointless affectation when TPTB obviously favor the JLA at all times,
        making JSA membership a moot point), let's see a mix of old and new
        heroes carrying on from the past. It might make trouble to say it,
        but don't limit the book to just GA-related heroes; the 3-D Man,
        Venus, and Quasar (that is Marvel Boy's name these days, right?) need
        a place to hang out, too.

        As Robert Kirkman is using the Marvel Universe to power his roller
        coaster in MTU, I think a new All-Winner's Squad that appreciates that
        it is a super-hero comic book first would be a great platform for
        these characters. If marketing agrees, of course. :)

        Greg
      • michael dunne
        Good points Greg, but I thnk a more tradtional approach to art might have helped also. Keep in mind DC s two JSA revivals in the 90 s featured cartoony art.
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 7, 2005
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          Good points Greg,  but I thnk a more tradtional approach to art might have helped also. Keep in mind DC's two JSA revivals in the 90's featured "cartoony" art. and were cancelled . When Sadoswsky and Bair (plus Buzz and why isn't he working more?) came on board..........success.
          regards
          mike

          Greg Schienke <gschienke@...> wrote:

          "Actually, in fairness, the way the math of marketing works today, any
          company that can afford a marketing company knows the fate of a comic
          with the orders for the first issue.  That comics aren't cancelled
          after solicitation of the first issue more often, I think, is because
          (1) there is a chance to recoup some of the investment for the writing
          and drawing of the comic solicited and (2) blind faith that the
          marketing calculations will be proven wrong.

          For the first reason, let's not forget that because comics are
          non-returnable, the companies aren't losing money, or if they are, not
          that much money, with the first two issues, at least, because when a
          comic store has its order delivered, it pays for the comics even
          before they are sold.  It is the dealer who will lose money if the
          comics aren't sold, not Marvel.  Eventually, predictably, dealer
          orders will decline so much that there is no money to be made to
          justify the cost of production, and then the comic is cancelled.

          This system is very different than the pre-direct market days, when
          comic companies would appear to throw titles against the wall and see
          what would stick.  Back when publishers had to wait a couple of months
          before they saw the sales figures, there was time for a comic to build
          an audience.  It is in that kind of environment that produces
          wonderful, unexpectedly good comics, like Skull, the Slayer; Sugar and
          Spike; Fleischer and Aparo's Spectre; the original Defenders; and Tomb
          of Dracula. 

          For my second reason, let's not forget that you have creative people
          hoping to expand the medium.  Does it really take very long for a
          person who reads comic books to see a new title solicited and know it
          is doomed?  We all do it, and we don't have marketing data to back us
          up.  After I read Invaders #0, I knew that the book wasn't going to
          last, though more for the writing than the art.  Still, the people who
          make the decisions don't want the comics they put out to crash and
          burn, they want them to succeed, so they work their magic and pull
          strings and get the comic out, hoping the public will show up.

          Now, I've been down this road before regarding marketing (the only
          topics that get people more riled up is when a discussion involving
          copyright and/or trademark break out).  I understand why people get
          upset, they want comic books to be "ART" in all its glory, where
          writers and artists are free to produce what they want as they want.
          Besides the simple fact, that no creator has ever been allowed that
          freedom regarding the use of company-owned characters, when Marvel on
          its Website positions itself as "one of the world's most prominent
          character-based entertainment companies[, with its] focus[ ] in four
          areas: entertainment (Marvel Studios), licensing, publishing and toys
          (Toy Biz)," I think you see the problem:  Publishing ranks third.

          Back on topic now, here are my general thoughts about this series.  It
          is apparent that it was created, albeit a few years after the fact,
          because of the success of JSA.  The problem was, IMO, that whereas JSA
          generally is able to provide stories and characterizations that appeal
          to both long-time and newer readers, New Invaders never felt
          approachable along any of those paths.  While it can be said that most
          Marvel heroes from the Golden Age had no personalities, that given to
          Blazing Skull, for instance, felt more like writer's conceit than
          something organic from research, for instance.  Similarily, while from
          a marketing aspect, the use of "the Invaders," makes sense, tying the
          name into current events, as such, makes the stories offensive,
          depending on your viewpoint regarding U.S. policy, and, even if they
          were the finest stories written this side of "For the Man Who Has
          Everything," they will still become time-locked anamolies.

          If Marvel really wants to cater to the JSA fan base, I think they
          would have been better served to resurrect the "All-Winners Squad"
          name and give us new stories featuring the remaining Golden Age
          heroes, including Captain America (if Spider-Man and Wolverine can
          appear in every Marvel comic, give Cap another appearance or two).
          The Vision could return, maybe an amalgam of the GA and android
          versions.  Though I despise the legacy aspect of JSA (a rather
          pointless affectation when TPTB obviously favor the JLA at all times,
          making JSA membership a moot point), let's see a mix of old and new
          heroes carrying on from the past.  It might make trouble to say it,
          but don't limit the book to just GA-related heroes; the 3-D Man,
          Venus, and Quasar (that is Marvel Boy's name these days, right?) need
          a place to hang out, too.

          As Robert Kirkman is using the Marvel Universe to power his roller
          coaster in MTU, I think a new All-Winner's Squad that appreciates that
          it is a super-hero comic book first would be a great platform for
          these characters.  If marketing agrees, of course.  :)

          Greg






          Regards,
          Michael
        • Mark Stratton
          ... That s not why. TPTB at DC didn t want any JSA comics, period. Those cartoony series sold pretty well. They tried killing off some of these characters
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 7, 2005
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            michael dunne wrote:
            > Good points Greg, but I thnk a more tradtional approach to art might
            > have helped also. Keep in mind DC's two JSA revivals in the 90's
            > featured "cartoony" art. and were cancelled .

            That's not why. TPTB at DC didn't want any JSA comics, period. Those
            cartoony series sold pretty well. They tried killing off some of these
            characters during Zero Hour, some were in limbo and had just
            returned...there was a concerted effort to keep them in the background.


            When Sadoswsky and Bair
            > (plus Buzz and why isn't he working more?) came on board..........success.

            That, and good solid writing. It's always a combination...at least in
            my view. I'd read a story with less than stellar art if the writing was
            compelling enough. However, no matter how pretty the pictures are, if
            the writing is weak then you can forget it.

            Best,
            Mark


            --
            High and Tight - Baseball Commentary
            http://bhb-odes.blogspot.com
          • Kevin Garcia
            ... Yes and no... My understanding is that the series came about in large part because Chuck Austen had an idea (largely that he wanted to have a naked girl
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 7, 2005
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              --- Greg Schienke <gschienke@...> wrote:
              > Back on topic now, here are my general thoughts
              > about this series. It
              > is apparent that it was created, albeit a few years
              > after the fact,
              > because of the success of JSA.

              Yes and no... My understanding is that the series came
              about in large part because Chuck Austen had an idea
              (largely that he wanted to have a naked girl who
              catches fire, a crazy Skull guy and a retro-continuity
              USAgent), then Allan Jacobsen worked with him to make
              the idea work.

              It was probably approved at Marvel BECAUSE of the JSA,
              but I get the impression from the writers that the JSA
              didn't figure into the equation from their point of
              view.... however...

              > The problem was,
              > IMO, that whereas JSA
              > generally is able to provide stories and
              > characterizations that appeal
              > to both long-time and newer readers, New Invaders
              > never felt
              > approachable along any of those paths.

              Part of that problem (as I'll address in a second)
              seems to have come from editorial and publisher
              demands that had little to do with the books content.
              Demands such as "tie it in to the war on terror"
              "don't mention other books because it'll confuse
              readers" and "keep USAgent on the team and in Captain
              America's uniform."

              > While it can
              > be said that most
              > Marvel heroes from the Golden Age had no
              > personalities, that given to
              > Blazing Skull, for instance, felt more like writer's
              > conceit than
              > something organic from research, for instance.
              > Similarily, while from
              > a marketing aspect, the use of "the Invaders," makes
              > sense, tying the
              > name into current events, as such, makes the stories
              > offensive,
              > depending on your viewpoint regarding U.S. policy,
              > and, even if they
              > were the finest stories written this side of "For
              > the Man Who Has
              > Everything," they will still become time-locked
              > anamolies.

              I agree with these assessments entirely. As I
              mentioned, the whole "war on terror" thing was part of
              Austen and later the editorials plans... but not the
              creators themselves.

              Does DC have that much interferance on lower tier
              books?

              That said, I don't mind the Blazing Skull's new
              character. He was kind of out there in the 40s (though
              not clearly insane) and the idea of being immortal but
              not having the strong personality to handle it...
              well, that could do it for a guy.

              > If Marvel really wants to cater to the JSA fan base,
              > I think they
              > would have been better served to resurrect the
              > "All-Winners Squad"
              > name and give us new stories featuring the remaining
              > Golden Age
              > heroes, including Captain America (if Spider-Man and
              > Wolverine can
              > appear in every Marvel comic, give Cap another
              > appearance or two).

              I agree... although, as big a fan as I am, "All
              Winners Squad" never had the right ring to it for me
              (niether did "the Invaders," so oh well).

              V-Battalion maybe? Nah, I guess All-Winners has the
              strongest history...

              > The Vision could return, maybe an amalgam of the GA
              > and android
              > versions. Though I despise the legacy aspect of JSA
              > (a rather
              > pointless affectation when TPTB obviously favor the
              > JLA at all times,
              > making JSA membership a moot point), let's see a mix
              > of old and new
              > heroes carrying on from the past. It might make
              > trouble to say it,
              > but don't limit the book to just GA-related heroes;
              > the 3-D Man,
              > Venus, and Quasar (that is Marvel Boy's name these
              > days, right?) need
              > a place to hang out, too.

              I wouldn't mind seeing something like that. And Quasar
              is Marvel Boy's legacy.. the 50's Marvel Boy went by
              the name "Crusader" before he blew himself up.

              > As Robert Kirkman is using the Marvel Universe to
              > power his roller
              > coaster in MTU, I think a new All-Winner's Squad
              > that appreciates that
              > it is a super-hero comic book first would be a great
              > platform for
              > these characters. If marketing agrees, of course.
              > :)

              I could see that. Kirkman doesn't have the Miller or
              Bendis pull in Marvel yet, but he's getting there. Dan
              Slott would be another good choice. Honestly Allan
              could be a good choice too, but I don't feel we've
              seen what he can do with a comic book yet. Maybe he
              should try an indie book.

              Heck... I'd love to write the book!

              I like the concept started with the current invaders
              book... a WWII-style battleship that exists between
              space and can circle the globe without being spotted.
              Commanded by the original Human Torch and piloted by
              Bill Everett's creation The Fin, housing troops from
              Atlantis and a squad of Golden Age heroes and their
              decendents.... the idea has merrit, but it didn't get
              a chance to shine.


              -
              Kevin Garcia
              http://www.kevingarcia.com/
              The Golden Age Mailing List
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goldenage/

              -----

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