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RE: [The All Winners Squad] How I think definition of the Torch/V ision origin should work...

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  • Richard Porter
    See my comments below... Rich (AKA CommercialInn) ... From: earthelemental99 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com] Subject: [The All Winners Squad] How I think
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 5, 2002
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      See my comments below...

      Rich
      (AKA CommercialInn)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: earthelemental99 [mailto:no_reply@yahoogroups.com]
      Subject: [The All Winners Squad] How I think definition of the

      Torch/Vision origin should work...


      The Torch and the Vision are family/brothers.

      Here's my interpretation of the events:

      Horton, dissatisfied with the results of his first experiment--
      Creating the first android "Torch" with a mind of its own that
      refused to obey with its creator's will-- intended to make him both
      recognized in the scientific community and become wealthy and famous
      beyond his wildest dreams. The Torch refused to do this, and rebelled
      against his creator, abandoning it's/his service to Horton and
      instead choosing the path to independently becoming a hero.

      *[I agree that Horton was disappointed when the Human Torch rebelled and
      became a hero - don't have a problem with this at all].*

      So, Horton attempts to build a second, likewise intelligent Torch,
      but this time the robot is programmed WITHOUT the function of
      free will (or the original Torch's bizarrely *accurate* comprehension
      of racketeering-- and the android's emotional reactions to criminals,
      a very strange concept for a newborn "machine" to understand)

      *[Horton did build a second android some years later - Adam-II - as revealed
      in What If (Vol I) #4. However Adam-II was built with free will and decided
      to take over the world, before being defeated by the All-Winners Squad
      (formerly the Invaders) led by Captain America (II) who died during the
      conflict.]*

      However, Horton decides to abort this effort, when he realizes such
      an unfeeling being would potentially be even more dangerous than the
      first!

      *[Adam-II was insane.]*

      Remember, the Torch was almost imprisoned by the police after
      his first adventure (assuming the Torch would surrender to them),
      except that Horton cleared him of all the charges.

      The Torch (who shortly abandoned Horton) enrolled as a cop afterward,
      to finally operate his anti-rackeeting campaign within the law,
      remaining in action and fighting crime throughout the Golden Age.
      Thus, with the knowledge of all the dangers of creating the Torch's
      evil opposite present, the incomplete second android never becomes
      operative for several years. After all, since the first passionate
      Torch left Horton to serve with the police, wouldn't the second
      emotionless Torch fall prey to the criminal element?
      The plug was pulled on Torch II.

      *[Adam-II was created and in action in 1946 (according to the events in What
      If (Vol I) #4). The Battle-Axis villain Volton (created by another company
      but used as copyright had expired) was revealed to have been an actual
      second android made from the spare parts of Human Torch (I). Horton didn't
      complete this android, so it doesn't count as his second.]*

      Then, Ultron comes into the picture--who builds the Torch's
      long-forgotten, unliving "brother" into the synthezoid known
      as the Vision. And the rest is Avengers history.

      *[Wrong! It was revealed waaaay back in the '70s (and recently reprinted in
      the Celestial Madonna trade paperback) that the Human Torch (I) was remade
      into The Vision (II) by Ultron (god know what number) and Phineas T. Horton.
      Alright in the '80s it was revealed by Horton that the Vision (II) could
      possibly be the Human Torch (I), and then Marvel brought back Human Torch
      (I). However it was all clarified that Human Torch (I) and The Vision (II)
      were one and the same thanks to some temporal messing about by Immortus in
      Avengers Forever, and the '80s Horton was a Space Phantom. Technically the
      current Vision (II) isn't the same as Human Torch (I), as during the
      early/mid '90s, Vision (II) - who was now white by this time - swapped
      bodies with his other-dimensional evil counterpart who was a member of the
      Gatherers (in that very small 39 issue story that dragged on forever). Hope
      that's clearer???]*


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    • Michael Grant Neary
      I think your interpretation is pretty good, but there`s something you`ve forgotten. Today`s Vision is`nt II , is the Third one. First Vision was`nt an android
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 5, 2002
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        I think your interpretation is pretty good, but there`s something
        you`ve forgotten.


        Today`s Vision is`nt II , is the Third one.

        First Vision was`nt an android but an alien. Check Timely Comics
        (Marvel Comics Golden Age) and you`ll see him somewhere.
        Catch you up Later.

        Grant.











        > Here's my interpretation of the events:
        >
        > Horton, dissatisfied with the results of his first experiment--
        > Creating the first android "Torch" with a mind of its own that
        > refused to obey with its creator's will-- intended to make him both
        > recognized in the scientific community and become wealthy and
        famous
        > beyond his wildest dreams. The Torch refused to do this, and
        rebelled
        > against his creator, abandoning it's/his service to Horton and
        > instead choosing the path to independently becoming a hero.
        >
        > *[I agree that Horton was disappointed when the Human Torch
        rebelled and
        > became a hero - don't have a problem with this at all].*
        >
        > So, Horton attempts to build a second, likewise intelligent Torch,
        > but this time the robot is programmed WITHOUT the function of
        > free will (or the original Torch's bizarrely *accurate*
        comprehension
        > of racketeering-- and the android's emotional reactions to
        criminals,
        > a very strange concept for a newborn "machine" to understand)
        >
        > *[Horton did build a second android some years later - Adam-II - as
        revealed
        > in What If (Vol I) #4. However Adam-II was built with free will
        and decided
        > to take over the world, before being defeated by the All-Winners
        Squad
        > (formerly the Invaders) led by Captain America (II) who died during
        the
        > conflict.]*
        >
        > However, Horton decides to abort this effort, when he realizes such
        > an unfeeling being would potentially be even more dangerous than
        the
        > first!
        >
        > *[Adam-II was insane.]*
        >
        > Remember, the Torch was almost imprisoned by the police after
        > his first adventure (assuming the Torch would surrender to them),
        > except that Horton cleared him of all the charges.
        >
        > The Torch (who shortly abandoned Horton) enrolled as a cop
        afterward,
        > to finally operate his anti-rackeeting campaign within the law,
        > remaining in action and fighting crime throughout the Golden Age.
        > Thus, with the knowledge of all the dangers of creating the Torch's
        > evil opposite present, the incomplete second android never becomes
        > operative for several years. After all, since the first passionate
        > Torch left Horton to serve with the police, wouldn't the second
        > emotionless Torch fall prey to the criminal element?
        > The plug was pulled on Torch II.
        >
        > *[Adam-II was created and in action in 1946 (according to the
        events in What
        > If (Vol I) #4). The Battle-Axis villain Volton (created by another
        company
        > but used as copyright had expired) was revealed to have been an
        actual
        > second android made from the spare parts of Human Torch (I).
        Horton didn't
        > complete this android, so it doesn't count as his second.]*
        >
        > Then, Ultron comes into the picture--who builds the Torch's
        > long-forgotten, unliving "brother" into the synthezoid known
        > as the Vision. And the rest is Avengers history.
        >
        > *[Wrong! It was revealed waaaay back in the '70s (and recently
        reprinted in
        > the Celestial Madonna trade paperback) that the Human Torch (I) was
        remade
        > into The Vision (II) by Ultron (god know what number) and Phineas
        T. Horton.
        > Alright in the '80s it was revealed by Horton that the Vision (II)
        could
        > possibly be the Human Torch (I), and then Marvel brought back Human
        Torch
        > (I). However it was all clarified that Human Torch (I) and The
        Vision (II)
        > were one and the same thanks to some temporal messing about by
        Immortus in
        > Avengers Forever, and the '80s Horton was a Space Phantom.
        Technically the
        > current Vision (II) isn't the same as Human Torch (I), as during the
        > early/mid '90s, Vision (II) - who was now white by this time -
        swapped
        > bodies with his other-dimensional evil counterpart who was a member
        of the
        > Gatherers (in that very small 39 issue story that dragged on
        forever). Hope
        > that's clearer???]*
        >
        >
        > ====================================================================
        >
        > Disclaimer
        >
        > This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
        > individual(s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions
        presented
        > are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
        > Bridgwater College. If you are not the intended recipient, be
        > advised that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
        > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received
        > this email in error please delete it together with any attachment
        (s)
        > and contact the sender.
        >
        > Internet communications are not secure and therefore Bridgwater
        > College does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of
        > this message.
        >
        > This email message has been scanned by MAILsweeper & Sophos for the
        > presence of computer viruses.
        >
        > ====================================================================
      • Richard Porter
        Grant I probably confused everyone with my interpretation of the Human Torch/Vision convoluted origin yesterday. I did mean the numbers I gave the characters.
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 5, 2002
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          Grant

          I probably confused everyone with my interpretation of the Human
          Torch/Vision convoluted origin yesterday.

          I did mean the numbers I gave the characters. Aarkus (an interdimensional
          policeman (of sorts)) was the original Vision [Vision (I)]. The modern day
          android is Vision (II) - I didn't up his number to Vision (III) even though
          he has a newer body, as his essence is still that of the original android.

          If I took a newer body to mean a newer Vision, I would have to do the same
          to Professor X, as in Uncanny X-Men #164 (I think) he was given a clone body
          after his transformed into a Brood, and I don't think anyone classes him as
          Professor X (II) - or at least I hope not.

          Rich
          (AKA CommercialInn)

          -----Original Message-----

          I think your interpretation is pretty good, but there`s something
          you`ve forgotten.


          Today`s Vision is`nt II , is the Third one.

          First Vision was`nt an android but an alien. Check Timely Comics
          (Marvel Comics Golden Age) and you`ll see him somewhere.
          Catch you up Later.

          Grant.


          ====================================================================

          Disclaimer

          This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
          individual(s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented
          are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
          Bridgwater College. If you are not the intended recipient, be
          advised that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
          copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received
          this email in error please delete it together with any attachment(s)
          and contact the sender.

          Internet communications are not secure and therefore Bridgwater
          College does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of
          this message.

          This email message has been scanned by MAILsweeper & Sophos for the
          presence of computer viruses.

          ====================================================================
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