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Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen

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  • steelcurtain40
    Does anyone on this discussion board - who may have some knowledge about the textual transmission of the Quran - tell me the current status of the research
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 14, 2013
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      Does anyone  on this discussion board - who may have some knowledge about  the textual transmission of the Quran - tell me the current status of the research analysis (and research reports)  of the Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen;  which was accomplished under the oversite of Gerd Puin, a German professor??

       

      Some backround:   Not too long ago I was intrigued by the consistent claims of Muslims that the text of the Quran has been , more-less, untouched by any corruptions, alterations, mistakes or significant variences in the way that the New Testament has been.

       

       I have been under the impression that this claim is more-less valid until I read an article (which was published in 2009 by Sujit Das) .  I actually read nearly the whole article just within the last 2 months.  According to the article by Sujit Das and subsequent articles the discovery of the Sana'a manuscripts has the potential to significantly undercut this claim by Muslim scholarship.  I can not seem to find anything new since then except other discussions on the web that is more-less tit for tat. by that I mean Muslims will say that the discovery of these manuscripts actually support their claim that the textual history of the Quran is solid while the Christian sites will contradict Muslim responses to initial research reports Sana'a manuscripts.

        At first it seems that chief research analyst (Gerd Puin) claimed that there was significant varients in the copies of the  Quran.  Muslim scholarship now react and say that Puin has "backtracked"  in alot of what he stated - initially.  Is there any truth at all to this? I get the feeling that Gerd Puin has dissapeared from the scene and I am not sure if there was like a "FINAL REPORT"  on the matter.

       

      So, I have been hunting for some hard evidence one way or the other and I am having a hard time in coming up with some concrete information.  If anyone can point me in the right direction or tell me what became of the research project of the Sana'a manuscripts it will be great help to me. 

       

      I would really love to see anything that shows specific examples (Book; chapter and verse but in this case - Book; Surah and Iya)  of significant textual variations in the Quran.  Or you point to information that shows that the Sana'a copies are very smooth and parallel to the modern day text of the Quran. 

       

       

      Thank you,

       

      Mike Karoules

    • Roger
      Greetings Mike, You may find Textual Criticism and Qur an Manuscripts (2011) by Keith E. Small useful. Gerd Puin, Elisabeth Puin, (and other scholars) along
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 15, 2013
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        Greetings Mike,
         
        You may find Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts (2011) by Keith E. Small useful. Gerd Puin, Elisabeth Puin, (and other scholars) along with the Ṣan‘ā’ manuscripts are mentioned to varying degrees throughout this book. In many ways, this book reads and is outlined much like The Text of the New Testament (e.g. Aland and Aland; or Metzger), so you’ll get a lot out of it even if you don’t know Arabic (although knowing Arabic is a definite asset). It also includes several photos of manuscripts and a 10-page bibliography (for further research, if you so desire). An excellent resource IMO.
        “This unique work takes a method of textual analysis commonly used in studies of ancient Western and Eastern manuscripts and applies it to twenty-one early Qur'an manuscripts. Keith Small analyzes a defined portion of text from the Qur'an with two aims in view: to recover the earliest form of text for this portion, and to trace the historical development of this portion to the current form of the text of the Qur'an. Small concludes that though a significantly early edited form of the consonantal text of the Qur'an can be recovered, its original forms of text cannot be obtained. He also documents the further editing that was required to record the Arabic text of the Qur'an in a complete phonetic script, as well as providing an explanation for much of the development of various recitation systems of the Qur'an. This controversial, thought-provoking book provides a rigorous examination into the history of the Qur'an and will be of great interest to Quranic Studies scholars.”
         

        - Roger

      • Mike Ferrando
        Mike, I have been following this story as well. Here is my info. (below). -mike Did the Umayyads change the Qur an? http://youtu.be/AKl0gA35HaE
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 15, 2013
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          Mike,
          I have been following this story as well.
          Here is my info. (below).
          -mike

          Did the Umayyads change the Qur'an?
          http://youtu.be/AKl0gA35HaE
          =====================================
          Much of the qur'an was lost.  Mohammed wrote a lot of it on bones, leaves, pieces of leather and had people memorize parts, but many of those people were killed in the many wars the Muslims started against everyone around them in their craze to force Islam on the world so they could get more plunder.
           
          When Uthman had his own version of the Qur'an written, there were as many as 15 different versions extant.  The first versions didn't even have vowels so the reading of the words depended on the knowledge of Arabic  of the reader.  The hadith are clear on how much was lost.  Read Bukhari Volume 6 Chapter 61.  It is all about the writing of the Qur'an, the missing parts and the changes to it.  Allah seemed to be missing during this time since he didn't keep the Qur'an whole.
           
          Aisha even said the verse where Mohammed called for the stoning and the breastfeeding of adult men was eaten by a tame sheep. Really...
           
          There are at least 109 verses of hate toward non-Muslims in the Qur'an alone.  There are more verses of hate toward Jews in the Qur'an, hadith and sira than in Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'.
          http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us?page=0,3
          ======================================
          JAM' AL-QUR'AN:
          THE CODIFICATION OF THE QUR'AN TEXT
          by John Gilchrist
          http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Jam/index.html
          ======================================
          Subject: Koran Sana mss (1972 find)




          From: "steelcurtain40@..." <steelcurtain40@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:12 PM
          Subject: [textualcriticism] Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen



          Does anyone  on this discussion board - who may have some knowledge about  the textual transmission of the Quran - tell me the current status of the research analysis (and research reports)  of the Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen;  which was accomplished under the oversite of Gerd Puin, a German professor??
           
          Some backround:   Not too long ago I was intrigued by the consistent claims of Muslims that the text of the Quran has been , more-less, untouched by any corruptions, alterations, mistakes or significant variences in the way that the New Testament has been.
           
           I have been under the impression that this claim is more-less valid until I read an article (which was published in 2009 by Sujit Das) .  I actually read nearly the whole article just within the last 2 months.  According to the article by Sujit Das and subsequent articles the discovery of the Sana'a manuscripts has the potential to significantly undercut this claim by Muslim scholarship.  I can not seem to find anything new since then except other discussions on the web that is more-less tit for tat. by that I mean Muslims will say that the discovery of these manuscripts actually support their claim that the textual history of the Quran is solid while the Christian sites will contradict Muslim responses to initial research reports Sana'a manuscripts.
            At first it seems that chief research analyst (Gerd Puin) claimed that there was significant varients in the copies of the  Quran.  Muslim scholarship now react and say that Puin has "backtracked"  in alot of what he stated - initially.  Is there any truth at all to this? I get the feeling that Gerd Puin has dissapeared from the scene and I am not sure if there was like a "FINAL REPORT"  on the matter.
           
          So, I have been hunting for some hard evidence one way or the other and I am having a hard time in coming up with some concrete information.  If anyone can point me in the right direction or tell me what became of the research project of the Sana'a manuscripts it will be great help to me. 
           
          I would really love to see anything that shows specific examples (Book; chapter and verse but in this case - Book; Surah and Iya)  of significant textual variations in the Quran.  Or you point to information that shows that the Sana'a copies are very smooth and parallel to the modern day text of the Quran. 
           
           
          Thank you,
           
          Mike Karoules




        • Mike Ferrando
          FYI  Larry Hurtado s Blog : Textual Criticism, the New Testament, and the Qur’an March 21, 2013
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 17, 2013
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            FYI

             Larry Hurtado's Blog : Textual Criticism, the New Testament, and the Qur’an March 21, 2013

            http://larryhurtado.wordpress. com/2013/03/21/textual- criticism-the-new-testament- and-the-quran/


            But Small also notes that the other evidence (especially palimpsests and reports from early centuries) suggest strongly that there was, in the earliest period, a considerably greater diversity in the text of the Qur’an than is reflected in the extant manuscripts studied.  Moreover, as is widely accepted, in the late 7th century, disturbed by the diversity in the text of the Qur’an, the Caliph Uthman organized a standardization of the consontantal text (early Arabic, like ancient Hebrew, was a consonantal aphabet with no written vowels), suppressing variant versions. 
            As often the concern of monarchs, Uthman wanted to unify his religio-political doman, and suppress potentially dangerous differences.  Therefore, given the place of the Qur’an in Islam, he focused on fixing its text.  Thereafter, in successive centuries, further steps were taken to fix the text and its recitation.  So, as Small observes, “the history of the transmission of the text of the Qur’an is at least as much a testament to the destruction of Qur’an material as it is to its preservation . . . It is also testimony to the fact that there never was one original text of the Qur’an” (p. 180).



            From: Roger <psyphus1@...>
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 6:42 AM
            Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen



            Greetings Mike,
             
            You may find Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts (2011) by Keith E. Small useful. Gerd Puin, Elisabeth Puin, (and other scholars) along with the Ṣan‘ā’ manuscripts are mentioned to varying degrees throughout this book. In many ways, this book reads and is outlined much like The Text of the New Testament (e.g. Aland and Aland; or Metzger), so you’ll get a lot out of it even if you don’t know Arabic (although knowing Arabic is a definite asset). It also includes several photos of manuscripts and a 10-page bibliography (for further research, if you so desire). An excellent resource IMO.
            “This unique work takes a method of textual analysis commonly used in studies of ancient Western and Eastern manuscripts and applies it to twenty-one early Qur'an manuscripts. Keith Small analyzes a defined portion of text from the Qur'an with two aims in view: to recover the earliest form of text for this portion, and to trace the historical development of this portion to the current form of the text of the Qur'an. Small concludes that though a significantly early edited form of the consonantal text of the Qur'an can be recovered, its original forms of text cannot be obtained. He also documents the further editing that was required to record the Arabic text of the Qur'an in a complete phonetic script, as well as providing an explanation for much of the development of various recitation systems of the Qur'an. This controversial, thought-provoking book provides a rigorous examination into the history of the Qur'an and will be of great interest to Quranic Studies scholars.”
             

            - Roger






          • steelcurtain40
            I wish to thank Mike and Roger for the information they shared with me concerning the Sana a manuscripts. I should read the link to Larry Hurtado s blog
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 9, 2013
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              I wish to thank Mike and  Roger for the information they shared with me concerning the Sana'a manuscripts.  I should read the link to Larry Hurtado's blog next.  I read your msgs and I apologize, Roger and Mike (F.)  for taking so long to get back with you.  I like to stay current as I can when people interact with me and a response from me took too long.  I apologize.  Please do keep me posted on this important issue.

               

              To my undersanding and from information I heard another FULL report on the findings and research analysis on the Sana'a manuscripts is to come forth any week or any month now although we have heard this before.   Maybe it is more of let us wait and see.  Please keep me posted on anything of detail that pertains mainly to the palimpsests of the Sana'a manuscripts.  I gather, from what research I have come across,  the overwriting is pretty much a stable text to today's version of the Quran but the underwriting (the palimpsests) yields more significant variations to the standard text of today's Quran.  So, basically,  the last writing on these texts (the overwriting) is stable yielding only minor textual varients.  But the underwriting is more bumpy and has more significant changes when compared to the overwriting.

               

              Again,  thanks guys for the input.

               

              Kindly,

               

              Mike Karoules

            • Mike Ferrando
              Mike, This is just a general observation, one which strikes me more often in this generation. When the Quran/ Koran is spoken of as a text , it puts this work
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 10, 2013
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                Mike,
                This is just a general observation, one which strikes me more often in this generation.
                When the Quran/ Koran is spoken of as a "text", it puts this work on a level with other works which have a mss history. But in reality the Koran is unlike anything else.
                The "author" being Muhammad was illiterate.
                He pronounced these "sayings" to those who were present.
                Some of those people present were also illiterate, some not.
                Thus, sometimes his words were memorized(??) and sometimes written on whatever was handy (from tree bark, to scraps of clothes, leather, etc).
                Hundreds of years after Muhammad's death, these "sayings" were brought together (or reported) to a grand council which decided which were or were not the "actual" sayings of Muhammad.
                Thus the Koran was born.
                But this was not the end.
                The sayings that were "found" or "discovered" after the Koran was created were also considered by many to be true "sayings" of the Prophet. And these other "sayings" were then collected and became the Hadith.
                Some in Islam consider both books to be equally inspired, some do not.
                Can anyone think of another work that has this kind of history? (Maybe the book of Mormon?)
                Sincerely,
                -mike



                From: "steelcurtain40@..." <steelcurtain40@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:24 PM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen



                I wish to thank Mike and  Roger for the information they shared with me concerning the Sana'a manuscripts.  I should read the link to Larry Hurtado's blog next.  I read your msgs and I apologize, Roger and Mike (F.)  for taking so long to get back with you.  I like to stay current as I can when people interact with me and a response from me took too long.  I apologize.  Please do keep me posted on this important issue.
                 
                To my undersanding and from information I heard another FULL report on the findings and research analysis on the Sana'a manuscripts is to come forth any week or any month now although we have heard this before.   Maybe it is more of let us wait and see.  Please keep me posted on anything of detail that pertains mainly to the palimpsests of the Sana'a manuscripts.  I gather, from what research I have come across,  the overwriting is pretty much a stable text to today's version of the Quran but the underwriting (the palimpsests) yields more significant variations to the standard text of today's Quran.  So, basically,  the last writing on these texts (the overwriting) is stable yielding only minor textual varients.  But the underwriting is more bumpy and has more significant changes when compared to the overwriting.
                 
                Again,  thanks guys for the input.
                 
                Kindly,
                 
                Mike Karoules




              • Mr. Buck
                That s interesting that a palimpsest would have the same corpus on both writings. The only other palimpsest I m aware of in that category is Codex Vaticanus.
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 10, 2013
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                  That's interesting that a palimpsest would have the same corpus on both writings. The only other palimpsest I'm aware of in that category is Codex Vaticanus.

                  Is the overwriting in the Sana'a codex also in the same orientation as the underwriting?
                   
                  Daniel Buck 
                  ________________________________


                  On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:13 PM, Mike Ferrando <mikeferrando@...> wrote:
                   
                  Mike,
                  This is just a general observation, one which strikes me more often in this generation.
                  When the Quran/ Koran is spoken of as a "text", it puts this work on a level with other works which have a mss history. But in reality the Koran is unlike anything else.
                  The "author" being Muhammad was illiterate.
                  He pronounced these "sayings" to those who were present.
                  Some of those people present were also illiterate, some not.
                  Thus, sometimes his words were memorized(??) and sometimes written on whatever was handy (from tree bark, to scraps of clothes, leather, etc).
                  Hundreds of years after Muhammad's death, these "sayings" were brought together (or reported) to a grand council which decided which were or were not the "actual" sayings of Muhammad.
                  Thus the Koran was born.
                  But this was not the end.
                  The sayings that were "found" or "discovered" after the Koran was created were also considered by many to be true "sayings" of the Prophet. And these other "sayings" were then collected and became the Hadith.
                  Some in Islam consider both books to be equally inspired, some do not.
                  Can anyone think of another work that has this kind of history? (Maybe the book of Mormon?)
                  Sincerely,
                  -mike



                  From: "steelcurtain40@..." <steelcurtain40@...>
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, December 9, 2013 5:24 PM
                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen



                  I wish to thank Mike and  Roger for the information they shared with me concerning the Sana'a manuscripts.  I should read the link to Larry Hurtado's blog next.  I read your msgs and I apologize, Roger and Mike (F.)  for taking so long to get back with you.  I like to stay current as I can when people interact with me and a response from me took too long.  I apologize.  Please do keep me posted on this important issue.
                   
                  To my undersanding and from information I heard another FULL report on the findings and research analysis on the Sana'a manuscripts is to come forth any week or any month now although we have heard this before.   Maybe it is more of let us wait and see.  Please keep me posted on anything of detail that pertains mainly to the palimpsests of the Sana'a manuscripts.  I gather, from what research I have come across,  the overwriting is pretty much a stable text to today's version of the Quran but the underwriting (the palimpsests) yields more significant variations to the standard text of today's Quran.  So, basically,  the last writing on these texts (the overwriting) is stable yielding only minor textual varients.  But the underwriting is more bumpy and has more significant changes when compared to the overwriting.
                   
                  Again,  thanks guys for the input.
                   
                  Kindly,
                   
                  Mike Karoules






                • bucksburg
                  Looking at a video with images of the Sana a ms, I was led to another which speaks about the Syriac text of the Qur an. Imagine trying to write English without
                  Message 8 of 9 , Dec 11, 2013
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                    Looking at a video with images of the Sana'a ms, I was led to another which speaks about the Syriac text of the Qur'an. 


                    Imagine trying to write English without being able to cross any t's, dot any i's, or otherwise distinguish between l and t, or e and i. In Arabic, it's much worse. Try reading the undotted, unvocalized Sana'a palimpsest, and you're struck with up to 30 different ways of reading each word.


                    Professor Luxemburg (pseudonym for security reasons) took the most obscure passages of the Qur'an and ran them through a process in which he accounted for Syriac meanings behind the Arabic words, or other arrangements of dots than in the Egyptian text. The results can be at times gratifying (Mary is promised, not a river beneath her feet, but a de-illigitimization of her pregnancy) and at times rather startling: righteous Muslims are promised not doe-eyed white virgins in paradise, but crystal-clear white grapes.


                    It turns out that the grapes-in-paradise goes back to Coptic iconography of the pre-Islamic era.


                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk40dR8UpaU


                    Daniel Buck

                  • Mike Ferrando
                    Mike, I recently came across another source concerning versions of the Koran. I have not read this, but I am considering purchasing it. -mike Which Koran?:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 1, 2014
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                      Mike,
                      I recently came across another source concerning versions of the Koran.
                      I have not read this, but I am considering purchasing it.
                      -mike

                      Which Koran?: Variants, Manuscripts, Linguistics Hardcover – August 31, 2008
                      by Ibn Warraq (Editor)



                      Muslims keep telling Christians that there are many different Bible versions, proofing Christianity has no merit. However, they never mention that there are several Koran versions as well(because they lie, or because they just don't know anything about their own phony cult called islam?). They also don't tell you that the koran is full of contradictions and errors, e.g. it claims the earth is flat and the sun turn around it. Or that mountains were built to prevent earthquakes. Or that the sun sets in a muddy spring at night and has to ask for permission to rise every morning. Too bad for muslims that the koran also claims it's god's word (unlike the bible which was written by humans), revealing it as one big scam as god obviously wouldn't make such embarrassing mistakes.



                      From: "steelcurtain40@..."
                      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:12 PM
                      Subject: [textualcriticism] Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen



                      Does anyone  on this discussion board - who may have some knowledge about  the textual transmission of the Quran - tell me the current status of the research analysis (and research reports)  of the Sana'a manuscripts of Yemen;  which was accomplished under the oversite of Gerd Puin, a German professor??
                       




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