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Re: [textualcriticism] Bart Ehrman and Origen on Matthew 19:21

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  • sarban
    One should note that the Greek original and Latin translation of Origen s Commentary on Matthew differ substantially at this point. The reference to a Hebrew
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 29, 2013
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      One should note that the Greek original and Latin translation of Origen's Commentary on Matthew differ substantially at this point.
      The reference to a Hebrew Gospel (or Hebrew version of Matthew) is found only in the Latin translation.
       
      Andrew Criddle
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:29 PM
      Subject: [textualcriticism] Bart Ehrman and Origen on Matthew 19:21

       

      On p.52 of "Who's Word Is It?" Bart Ehrman attributes the following quote to Origen:
      “The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others, they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please.”

      This is from Origen's Commentary on Matthew book xv chapter 14--which covers the story of the Rich Young Ruler in Matthew chapter 19.
      It apparently has never been published in English, but you can read a machine translation here (the relevant section is on p. 107-8):

       
    • Daniel Buck
      From:sarban      One should note that the Greek original and Latin translation of Origen s Commentary on Matthew differ substantially
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 29, 2013
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        From: sarban <sarban@...> 
         
        
        One should note that the Greek original and Latin translation of Origen's Commentary on Matthew differ substantially at this point.
        The reference to a Hebrew Gospel (or Hebrew version of Matthew) is found only in the Latin translation.
         
        Andrew Criddle

        How about the Ehrman quote?
         
        Daniel Buck

        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:29 PM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Bart Ehrman and Origen on Matthew 19:21

         
        On p.52 of "Who's Word Is It?" Bart Ehrman attributes the following quote to Origen:
        “The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others, they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please.”

        This is from Origen's Commentary on Matthew book xv chapter 14--which covers the story of the Rich Young Ruler in Matthew chapter 19.
        It apparently has never been published in English, but you can read a machine translation here (the relevant section is on p. 107-8):

         


      • sarban
        ... From: Daniel Buck To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Bart Ehrman and Origen on
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 30, 2013
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          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 10:13 PM
          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Bart Ehrman and Origen on Matthew 19:21

           

          From: sarban <sarban@...
           
          
          One should note that the Greek original and Latin translation of Origen's Commentary on Matthew differ substantially at this point.
          The reference to a Hebrew Gospel (or Hebrew version of Matthew) is found only in the Latin translation.
           
          Andrew Criddle

          How about the Ehrman quote?
           
          Daniel Buck
           
           
           
          IIUC the Ehrman quote is based on the Greek text.
           
          Andrew Criddle
        • yennifmit
          Hi Daniel, Please see below... ... I agree. But it looks to me like Origen is engaged in some sophisticated textual criticism here. ... Isn t Origen referring
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 1 10:23 PM
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            Hi Daniel,

            Please see below...

            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Buck <bucksburg@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > First of all, it is interesting that Origen tested the value of a reading by whether or not it was supported in a parallel passage. This mindset could definitely lead to harmonizations being perpetuated in the transmission of the text.

            I agree. But it looks to me like Origen is engaged in some sophisticated textual criticism here.

            >
            > Secondly, it appears that Origen had before him a copy of Matthew in which 19:21 was immediately followed by a harmonizing interpolation. Origen goes on to clarify that this reading is found in the Hebrew edition of Matthew's gospel, along with other variants from the Greek texts:
            >
            > “The ruler said to him: Master, what good must I do good to live?”   He said to him: “Man, fulfill the law and the prophets.” He answered to him: “I have done this.” He said to him: “Go, sell everything you own, and distribute it to the poor, and come and follow me!  The ruler, however, started to scratch in the head and it did not please him. The man said to him: “How you say: ‘I have fulfilled the law and the prophets?’” [Jesus replied,] “Since it is written in the law: ‘You should love your neighbor as yourself!’”
            >

            Isn't Origen referring to the Gospel of the Hebrews? Isn't he saying that it does not include "love your neighbour as yourself" among the list of commands? (Which omission is supported by Luke and Mark but not Matthew.)

            >
            > Actually, it appears that if there was any harmonization going on, it was to another Gospel story entirely--one already found in Matthew 22:35-40, Mark 12:28-34, and Luke 10:25-37. Why Origen made no effort to distinguish between the two is a mystery.
            >
            > A couple of questions: 
            > 1) Do any extant manuscripts have this interpolation? I would especially look for it in mss of the Eastern text.

            Looking at the INTF's _Parallel Pericopes_ (Strutwolf and Wachtel, eds; German Bible Society, 2011), no Greek MSS except 130 and 792 omit what Origen seems to think is an interpolation at this point in Matthew's Gospel (i.e. love your neighbour as yourself). (And I'm glad to see you mention the Eastern text.)

            > 2) Do any extant manuscripts quote Origen in the margin or commentary at Matthew 19:21 or 22:39?

            I don't know, sorry.

            Best,

            Tim Finney
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