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computer capable of identifying DSS copyists? was RE: [textualcriticism] Re: Manuscript Sinaiticus vs. Vaticanus

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  • Stephen Goranson
    On May 31 George {clearbrush} wrote (in part): ________________________________ In addition, there is a computer program developed at Ben-Gurion U. in Israel
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 1, 2013
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      On May 31 George {clearbrush} wrote (in part):

      "In addition, there is a computer program developed at Ben-Gurion U. in Israel that has the capability to identify with confidence individual DSS copyists –[....]"

      Could you provide a reference for this claim?
      Thanks

      Stephen Goranson
      www.duke.edu/~goranson


    • clearbrush
      Well, it really is old news... I had originally included the information in a post that I had submitted to Jonathan Borland s Tclist back in September 2009.
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 1, 2013
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        Well, it really is old news...

        I had originally included the information in a post that I had submitted to Jonathan Borland's Tclist back in September 2009.

        "The Journal of Pattern Recognition, Volume 42, Issue 12, December 2009, Pages 3348-3354;
        has published an article by Itay Bar-Yosef, Alik Mokeichev, Klara Kedem, Itshak Dinstein, Uri Ehrlich (due in Dec 09), entitled : " Adaptive shape prior for recognition and variational segmentation of degraded historical characters". This is software for ancient manuscripts covering much of the Textual Criticism concerns.
        It is supposed to identify, read, sort, search, reconstruct, etc., much of the tasks now done only by humans.
        The link for reading the abstract is : [now inoperable]

        It is now being used for ancient Hebrew manuscripts, but will be modified in the near future for other ancient languages.
        "Uri Ehrlich, an expert in ancient prayer texts who works with Bar-Yosef's team of computer scientists, said that with the help of the program, years of research could be done within a matter of minutes."  [end] "

        At the time, there was quite a bit of news coverage, but those Internet links are also inoperable.

        I should have more buried somewhere on hard-drives.

        At the time, while trying to do more digging at the Israeli institutional sites, they were still close with further information.

        Possibly, James Tabor may have additional specifics.

        Your welcome,  George Eller.

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Goranson wrote:
        >
        > On May 31 George {clearbrush} wrote (in part):
        > ________________________________
        > "In addition, there is a computer program developed at Ben-Gurion U. in Israel that has the capability to identify with confidence individual DSS copyists –[....]"
        >
        > Could you provide a reference for this claim?
        > Thanks
        >
        > Stephen Goranson
        > www.duke.edu/~goranson
        >
      • clearbrush
        Update : Especially for Dr. Finney. Dear Tim, you may be aware of this; but in the event it comes as a pleasant surprise, I hope you take it and run with it.
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 1, 2013
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          Update :

          Especially for Dr. Finney.  Dear Tim, you may be aware of this; but in the event it comes as a pleasant surprise, I hope you take it and run with it. You are the best candidate I know. Blessings to you and yours, Geo.

          To the readers : these new computer developments do everything I have described and more.  Is this the future for Textual Criticism and Paleography ?
          I think so !

          Although the main emphasis at the present is on the Cairo Genizah project; interacting with Google and the various holders of mss - as I am writing - other areas more familiar to the list are being processed.

          Starting with the Bing search term : Tel Aviv University computer scientists Lior Wolf and Nachum Dershowitz

          I got ~ 500 hits !

          Some of the more interesting :

          http://digipal.eu/

          http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/papers/morphologicalanalysis.pdf

          http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168368

          http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/

          http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/papers/genizah_cpdaii.pdf

          http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachumd/pub.html

          http://yussel.blogspot.com/

          Remember, this list is only a preliminary start; much, much more is out there.

          Yours,  George


          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "clearbrush" wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Well, it really is old news...
          >
          > I had originally included the information in a post that I had submitted
          > to Jonathan Borland's Tclist back in September 2009.
          >
          > "The Journal of Pattern Recognition, Volume 42, Issue 12, December
          > 2009, Pages 3348-3354;
          > has published an article by Itay Bar-Yosef, Alik Mokeichev, Klara Kedem,
          > Itshak Dinstein, Uri Ehrlich (due in Dec 09), entitled : " Adaptive
          > shape prior for recognition and variational segmentation of degraded
          > historical characters". This is software for ancient manuscripts
          > covering much of the Textual Criticism concerns.
          > It is supposed to identify, read, sort, search, reconstruct, etc., much
          > of the tasks now done only by humans.
          > The link for reading the abstract is : [now inoperable]
          >
          > It is now being used for ancient Hebrew manuscripts, but will be
          > modified in the near future for other ancient languages.
          > "Uri Ehrlich, an expert in ancient prayer texts who works with
          > Bar-Yosef's team of computer scientists, said that with the help of the
          > program, years of research could be done within a matter of minutes."
          > [end] "
          >
          > At the time, there was quite a bit of news coverage, but those Internet
          > links are also inoperable.
          >
          > I should have more buried somewhere on hard-drives.
          >
          > At the time, while trying to do more digging at the Israeli
          > institutional sites, they were still close with further information.
          >
          > Possibly, James Tabor may have additional specifics.
          >
          > Your welcome, George Eller.
          > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Goranson wrote:
          > >
          > > On May 31 George {clearbrush} wrote (in part):
          > > ________________________________
          > > "In addition, there is a computer program developed at Ben-Gurion U.
          > in Israel that has the capability to identify with confidence individual
          > DSS copyists –[....]"
          > >
          > > Could you provide a reference for this claim?
          > > Thanks
          > >
          > > Stephen Goranson
          > > www.duke.edu/~goranson
          > >
          >
        • Stephen Goranson
          This computer program may have good potential, but the claim that it now has the capability to identify with confidence individual DSS copyists appears to be
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 2, 2013
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            This computer program may have good potential, but the claim that it now "has the capability to identify with confidence individual DSS copyists" appears to be premature.

            Stephen Goranson

            From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of clearbrush [clearbrush@...]
            Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 11:20 PM
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: computer capable of identifying DSS copyists? was RE: [textualcriticism] Re: Manuscript Sinaiticus vs. Vaticanus

             

            Update :

            Especially for Dr. Finney.  Dear Tim, you may be aware of this; but in the event it comes as a pleasant surprise, I hope you take it and run with it. You are the best candidate I know. Blessings to you and yours, Geo.

            To the readers : these new computer developments do everything I have described and more.  Is this the future for Textual Criticism and Paleography ?
            I think so !

            Although the main emphasis at the present is on the Cairo Genizah project; interacting with Google and the various holders of mss - as I am writing - other areas more familiar to the list are being processed.

            Starting with the Bing search term : Tel Aviv University computer scientists Lior Wolf and Nachum Dershowitz

            I got ~ 500 hits !

            Some of the more interesting :

            http://digipal.eu/

            http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/papers/morphologicalanalysis.pdf

            http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168368

            http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/

            http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/papers/genizah_cpdaii.pdf

            http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachumd/pub.html

            http://yussel.blogspot.com/

            Remember, this list is only a preliminary start; much, much more is out there.

            Yours,  George


            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "clearbrush" wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Well, it really is old news...
            >
            > I had originally included the information in a post that I had submitted
            > to Jonathan Borland's Tclist back in September 2009.
            >
            > "The Journal of Pattern Recognition, Volume 42, Issue 12, December
            > 2009, Pages 3348-3354;
            > has published an article by Itay Bar-Yosef, Alik Mokeichev, Klara Kedem,
            > Itshak Dinstein, Uri Ehrlich (due in Dec 09), entitled : " Adaptive
            > shape prior for recognition and variational segmentation of degraded
            > historical characters". This is software for ancient manuscripts
            > covering much of the Textual Criticism concerns.
            > It is supposed to identify, read, sort, search, reconstruct, etc., much
            > of the tasks now done only by humans.
            > The link for reading the abstract is : [now inoperable]
            >
            > It is now being used for ancient Hebrew manuscripts, but will be
            > modified in the near future for other ancient languages.
            > "Uri Ehrlich, an expert in ancient prayer texts who works with
            > Bar-Yosef's team of computer scientists, said that with the help of the
            > program, years of research could be done within a matter of minutes."
            > [end] "
            >
            > At the time, there was quite a bit of news coverage, but those Internet
            > links are also inoperable.
            >
            > I should have more buried somewhere on hard-drives.
            >
            > At the time, while trying to do more digging at the Israeli
            > institutional sites, they were still close with further information.
            >
            > Possibly, James Tabor may have additional specifics.
            >
            > Your welcome, George Eller.
            > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Goranson wrote:
            > >
            > > On May 31 George {clearbrush} wrote (in part):
            > > ________________________________
            > > "In addition, there is a computer program developed at Ben-Gurion U.
            > in Israel that has the capability to identify with confidence individual
            > DSS copyists –[....]"
            > >
            > > Could you provide a reference for this claim?
            > > Thanks
            > >
            > > Stephen Goranson
            > > www.duke.edu/~goranson
            > >
            >

          • yennifmit
            Dear George, Thank you for the links which you posted. I imagine that computers and software will become increasingly adept at doing things which until now
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 3, 2013
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              Dear George,

              Thank you for the links which you posted. I imagine that computers and software will become increasingly adept at doing things which until now have been the preserve of human experts. They may even become better than humans with respect to doing certain things. Recognizing like hands is one area where I expect computer technology will provide help. However, I don't know much at all about that branch of computer technology.

              On the topic of some NT MSS being copied by females, I have little to offer except that we should not rule out the possibility. I think that the hands of P.Oxy. 4496 and Schøyen 2634/2 are very similar, possibly the same hand. Concerning the latter MS, I wonder whether an equally beautiful copy of Origen's commentary on Genesis would ever have been produced. In this context, I wonder whether this could be an example of the work practised by the girls skilled in calligraphy mentioned by Eusebius in relation to Origen's commentaries. But, this is mere speculation.

              Another thing to consider in this respect: Codex Alexandrinus contains a note in Arabic saying the MS was copied by one Thecla. So, it seems, whoever wrote that note did not think it impossible for an old codex to have been copied by a woman.

              I'm grateful for the references to the chapters by (1) Kim Haines-Eitzen and (2) Roger Bagnall and Raffaella Cribiore which Philip Maertens provided. Those are now on my list of things to read.

              Best,

              Tim Finney

              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "clearbrush" <clearbrush@...> wrote:
              >
              > Update :
              >
              > Especially for Dr. Finney. Dear Tim, you may be aware of this; but in
              > the event it comes as a pleasant surprise, I hope you take it and run
              > with it. You are the best candidate I know. Blessings to you and yours,
              > Geo.
              >
              > To the readers : these new computer developments do everything I have
              > described and more. Is this the future for Textual Criticism and
              > Paleography ?
              > I think so !
              >
              > Although the main emphasis at the present is on the Cairo Genizah
              > project; interacting with Google and the various holders of mss - as I
              > am writing - other areas more familiar to the list are being processed.
              >
              > Starting with the Bing search term : Tel Aviv University computer
              > scientists Lior Wolf and Nachum Dershowitz
              >
              > I got ~ 500 hits !
              >
              > Some of the more interesting :
              >
              > http://digipal.eu/
              >
              > http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/papers/morphologicalanalysis.pdf
              >
              > http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/168368
              >
              > http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/
              >
              > http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~wolf/papers/genizah_cpdaii.pdf
              >
              > http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachumd/pub.html
              >
              > http://yussel.blogspot.com/
              >
              > Remember, this list is only a preliminary start; much, much more is out
              > there.
              >
              > Yours, George
              >
              >
              > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "clearbrush" wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Well, it really is old news...
              > >
              > > I had originally included the information in a post that I had
              > submitted
              > > to Jonathan Borland's Tclist back in September 2009.
              > >
              > > "The Journal of Pattern Recognition, Volume 42, Issue 12, December
              > > 2009, Pages 3348-3354;
              > > has published an article by Itay Bar-Yosef, Alik Mokeichev, Klara
              > Kedem,
              > > Itshak Dinstein, Uri Ehrlich (due in Dec 09), entitled : " Adaptive
              > > shape prior for recognition and variational segmentation of degraded
              > > historical characters". This is software for ancient manuscripts
              > > covering much of the Textual Criticism concerns.
              > > It is supposed to identify, read, sort, search, reconstruct, etc.,
              > much
              > > of the tasks now done only by humans.
              > > The link for reading the abstract is : [now inoperable]
              > >
              > > It is now being used for ancient Hebrew manuscripts, but will be
              > > modified in the near future for other ancient languages.
              > > "Uri Ehrlich, an expert in ancient prayer texts who works with
              > > Bar-Yosef's team of computer scientists, said that with the help of
              > the
              > > program, years of research could be done within a matter of minutes."
              > > [end] "
              > >
              > > At the time, there was quite a bit of news coverage, but those
              > Internet
              > > links are also inoperable.
              > >
              > > I should have more buried somewhere on hard-drives.
              > >
              > > At the time, while trying to do more digging at the Israeli
              > > institutional sites, they were still close with further information.
              > >
              > > Possibly, James Tabor may have additional specifics.
              > >
              > > Your welcome, George Eller.
              > > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Goranson wrote:
              > > >
              > > > On May 31 George {clearbrush} wrote (in part):
              > > > ________________________________
              > > > "In addition, there is a computer program developed at Ben-Gurion U.
              > > in Israel that has the capability to identify with confidence
              > individual
              > > DSS copyists �[....]"
              > > >
              > > > Could you provide a reference for this claim?
              > > > Thanks
              > > >
              > > > Stephen Goranson
              > > > www.duke.edu/~goranson
              > > >
              > >
              >
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