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The "Translation" at the Codex Sinaiticus website

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  • Vox Verax
    This post is about a problematic feature at the Codex Sinaiticus website. But first, I should mention that Kirsopp Lake s 1911 photo-facsimile of the NT (plus
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 27, 2012
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      This post is about a problematic feature at the Codex Sinaiticus website. But first, I should mention that Kirsopp Lake's 1911 photo-facsimile of the NT (plus Barnabas and Hermas) portion of Codex Sinaiticus is available for free download at Archive.org:
      http://archive.org/details/GA_01 . This includes Lake's introduction.

      About two and a half years ago, I mentioned a problem at the Codex Sinaiticus website: what appears, to the casual visitor, to be an English translation of the contents of the manuscript's NT portion, is no such thing. Now here we are on the verge of 2013, and the pseudo-translation is still there.

      This can only mislead site-visitors. The site should contain, if not an accurate English translation of the contents of Codex Sinaiticus, a notification to its visitors that the "translation" is not an accurate rendering of the contents of the manuscript.

      "But this," you might be thinking, "is something for the British Library people to work out; it is not my problem." Suppose you noticed that in a crowd of tourists in London, there was a tour-guide who was constantly misdirecting the tourist by supplying them with street-maps that were inaccurate. You know the streets and subways of London perfectly well, so that doesn't hurt you. But should you therefore walk by silently? Would it not be better to point out to the tour-guide that his maps are inaccurate? And, if he continues to supply such maps to unsuspecting tourists, wouldn't a considerate person spare a few moments to tell the visitors that those maps are not trustworthy?

      Likewise, textual critics -- especially textual critics who blog -- who observe the situation regarding the Codex Sinaiticus website's pseudo-translation might want to notify the custodians of the Codex Sinaiticus website at the British Library, or at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation, or whoever is responsible for the Codex Sinaiticus website, that the pseudo-translation should not be a permanent feature of the website, unless it is accompanied by a clear warning about its shortcomings.

      Yours in Christ,

      James Snapp, Jr.
    • robertdmarcello
      James, In like manner, it may be important to note that the link you mention at archive.org is actually to watermarked images taken from CSNTM s website
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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        James,

        In like manner, it may be important to note that the link you mention at archive.org is actually to watermarked images taken from CSNTM's website without their permission. This also misleads site visitors since these images were not given permission to be published on a different website and are not credited. If you happen to know how they were posted or why the site incorrectly indicates that they are copyright free, it may be helpful to let CSNTM know.

        For everyone else and James, the facsimile is not legally allowed to be downloaded at archive.org, but it may be viewed anytime, along with many other manuscripts, at www.csntm.org/manuscript.

        Also, please be on the lookout. I am happy to report that CSNTM has new GA numbers for some previously discovered manuscripts:

        Tirana, ANA 76 (Kod. Br. 76) = 2912
        Tirana, ANA Fr. 12 (Kod. F. Br. 12) = 2913
        Cambridge, Christ College, Frg B = 2914
        Tirana, ANA Fr. 16 (Kod. Fr. Vs. 12) = lect 2454
        Tirana, ANA Fr. 2 ( Kod. F. Br. 2) = lect 2455
        Tirana, ANA Fr. 5 ( Kod. F. Br. 5) = lect 2456
        Athen, Benaki, Ms. TA 144 = lect 2457
        Athen, Benaki, Ms. TA 314 = lect 2458
        Athen, Benaki, Ms. TA 322 = lect 2459
        Iasi, (Iasi MS 7030) = lect 2460
        Tirana, ANA Fr. 7 (Kod. Fr. Vs. 7) = 2908
        Athen, Benaki, S.K. 5 is part of = lect 2141

        What is more, a host of new manuscript images will be added to www.csntm.org in the next few months!

        All the best,
        Rob Marcello

        Research Manager at CSNTM

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Vox Verax" <james.snapp@...> wrote:
        >
        > This post is about a problematic feature at the Codex Sinaiticus website. But first, I should mention that Kirsopp Lake's 1911 photo-facsimile of the NT (plus Barnabas and Hermas) portion of Codex Sinaiticus is available for free download at Archive.org:
        > http://archive.org/details/GA_01 . This includes Lake's introduction.
        >
        > About two and a half years ago, I mentioned a problem at the Codex Sinaiticus website: what appears, to the casual visitor, to be an English translation of the contents of the manuscript's NT portion, is no such thing. Now here we are on the verge of 2013, and the pseudo-translation is still there.
        >
        > This can only mislead site-visitors. The site should contain, if not an accurate English translation of the contents of Codex Sinaiticus, a notification to its visitors that the "translation" is not an accurate rendering of the contents of the manuscript.
        >
        > "But this," you might be thinking, "is something for the British Library people to work out; it is not my problem." Suppose you noticed that in a crowd of tourists in London, there was a tour-guide who was constantly misdirecting the tourist by supplying them with street-maps that were inaccurate. You know the streets and subways of London perfectly well, so that doesn't hurt you. But should you therefore walk by silently? Would it not be better to point out to the tour-guide that his maps are inaccurate? And, if he continues to supply such maps to unsuspecting tourists, wouldn't a considerate person spare a few moments to tell the visitors that those maps are not trustworthy?
        >
        > Likewise, textual critics -- especially textual critics who blog -- who observe the situation regarding the Codex Sinaiticus website's pseudo-translation might want to notify the custodians of the Codex Sinaiticus website at the British Library, or at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation, or whoever is responsible for the Codex Sinaiticus website, that the pseudo-translation should not be a permanent feature of the website, unless it is accompanied by a clear warning about its shortcomings.
        >
        > Yours in Christ,
        >
        > James Snapp, Jr.
        >
      • Vox Verax
        Robert, Hmm; now you know how the monks at St. Catherine s felt. I don t know how the images of Lake s 1911 book were posted, or why there is a Public Domain
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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          Robert,

          Hmm; now you know how the monks at St. Catherine's felt.

          I don't know how the images of Lake's 1911 book were posted, or why there is a "Public Domain Mark 1.0" notice attached to it.

          I'm not familiar with the intricate details of copyright-law. Perhaps the pirate supposed that photographs of the pages of a printed book are essentially like scans of the pages of a book; one can reproduce and distribute scans of a copyright-expired printed book without stealing anything from the author of the book, the owner of the book, or from the person who made the scans (particularly if that person is himself distributing the scans for free). But in any event, um, the book is over 100 years old, and thus no longer in copyright. Why hasn't CSNTM already made its contents freely available as a PDF?

          Those who don't want to have to be on the internet to access images of Codex Sinaiticus, and who do not want to criminally cooperate with the avaricious black-hearted villainous no-good pirate who somehow made a PDF from CSNTM's images and made it available at Archive.org, can resort to the CD of the NT portion of Lake's images (in black and white) that is available for $10 at http://solascripturapublishing.com (see item #23).

          Back to the subject of the pseudo-translation at the Codex Sinaiticus website: at those places at the CSNTM site where the Codex Sinaiticus website is mentioned, could you arrange, the next time the site is updated, the addition of a cautionary note that the English translation at the Codex Sinaiticus site does not accurately reflect the contents of Codex Sinaiticus?

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
        • John McChesney-Young
          On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:11 PM, robertdmarcello ... I m puzzled by the latter part of the statement, because the linked page
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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            On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:11 PM, robertdmarcello <rmarcello@...>
            wrote in part:

            > [The presence of the page images at Archive.org] misleads site visitors since these images were not given permission to be published on a different website and are not credited.

            I'm puzzled by the latter part of the statement, because the linked
            page (http://archive.org/details/GA_01) explicitly says "Scans from
            csntm.org/manuscript."

            > If you happen to know how they were posted or why the site incorrectly indicates that they are copyright free, it may be helpful to let CSNTM know.

            Many scans are uploaded by users wanting to share works they think are
            not covered by copyright, and the site admins probably didn't think
            the scans were other than copyright-free because they are of a work
            published in 1911, which in the US puts it in the public domain. I am
            not a lawyer, but my understanding is that copyright cannot be claimed
            on reproductions of public domain works that have had nothing added
            (see http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf for information on what
            constitutes a derivative work, and also section 5 of
            http://www.publicdomainsherpa.com/10-misconceptions-about-the-public-domain.html).
            Note also that Google Books requests that its scans of public domain
            books not be used commercially, but considers it a matter of good
            netiquette, not law; see
            http://www.publicdomaintreasurehunter.com/2010/10/02/is-it-ok-to-use-googles-public-domain-books-for-commercial-purposes/
            for more on this.

            But if you want to request that the Internet Archive remove the scans
            to prevent more people from viewing or downloading the work from their
            site, see the "Copyright Policy" section at the end of
            http://archive.org/about/terms.php.

            John


            --
            John McChesney-Young ** Berkeley, California, U.S.A.
            JMcCYoung~at~gmail.com ** http://twitter.com/jmccyoung
          • Wieland Willker
            This thread is now closed. I personally am a supporter of free, open access and I welcome everyone who is making manuscript images accessible. Best wishes
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 29, 2012
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              This thread is now closed.
              I personally am a supporter of free, open access and I welcome everyone who is making manuscript images accessible.


              Best wishes
              Wieland
              <><
            • Peter Streitenberger
              Dear TC-Friends, is there a sound critical edition of the latin vulgate for the New Testament? Yours Peter, Germany
              Message 6 of 12 , Jan 1, 2013
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                Dear TC-Friends,
                 
                is there a sound critical edition of the latin vulgate for the New Testament?
                Yours
                Peter, Germany
              • Wieland Willker
                ... Define/specify there and sound . There s the Vulgate from the German Bible Society. Best wishes Wieland
                Message 7 of 12 , Jan 3, 2013
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                  > is there a sound critical edition of the latin vulgate for the
                  > New Testament?

                  Define/specify "there" and "sound".
                  There's the Vulgate from the German Bible Society.

                  Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><
                  --------------------------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                  Textcritical commentary:
                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

                  Please check out the TC forum:
                  http://tcg.iphpbb3.com
                • Peter Streitenberger
                  Dear Wieland, I already got what I wanted: Here is the big Wordsworth-White for the Gospels: http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentum01whit#page/170/mode/2up
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 3, 2013
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                    Dear Wieland,
                     
                    I already got what I wanted:
                    Here is the big Wordsworth-White for the Gospels:

                    http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentum01whit#page/170/mode/2up

                    and then for Acts:

                    http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentu00wordgoog#page/n8/mode/2up

                    And again for Acts, the General Epistles, and Revelation:

                    http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentum03whit#page/n5/mode/2up

                    All that is missing is Paul...
                     
                    There is antother big edition of the Vetus Latina at the Beuron Institute but far too expensive – at least for me.
                     
                    Yours
                    Peter
                     
                     
                    Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:37 PM
                    Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Latin vulgate
                     
                     

                    > is there a sound critical edition of the latin vulgate for the
                    >

                    New Testament?

                    Define/specify "there" and "sound".
                    There's the Vulgate from the German Bible Society.

                    Best wishes
                    Wieland
                    <><
                    --------------------------
                    Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                    http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                    Textcritical commentary:
                    http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

                    Please check out the TC forum:
                    http://tcg.iphpbb3.com

                  • pino de martino
                    Latin Vulgate Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae : seu, Vetus italica, et caeterae quaecunque in codicibus mss. & antiquorum libris reperiri
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 5, 2013
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                      Latin Vulgate

                      Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae : seu, Vetus italica, et caeterae quaecunque in codicibus mss. & antiquorum libris reperiri potuerunt : quae cum Vulgata latina, & cum textu graeco comparantur ... Operâ & studio ... Petri Sabatier .. (1743) Tomus primus

                      http://archive.org/stream/bibliorumsacroru01saba#page/n7/mode/2up



                      Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae : seu, Vetus italica, et caeterae quaecunque in codicibus mss. & antiquorum libris reperiri potuerunt : quae cum Vulgata latina, & cum textu graeco comparantur ... Operâ & studio ... Petri Sabatier .. (1743) Tomus secundus

                      http://archive.org/stream/bibliorumsacroru02saba#page/n7/mode/2up

                      Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiquae, seu Vetus Italica, et caeterae quaecunque in codicibus mss. & antiquorum libris reperiri potuerunt : quae cum Vulgata latina, & cum textu graeco comparantur ... Operâ & studio ... D. Petri Sabatier .. tomus tertius (1751)

                      http://archive.org/details/BibliorumSacrorumLatinaeVersionesAntiquaeSeuVetusItalicaEtCaeterae



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Peter Streitenberger" <ps2866@...>
                      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2013 15:33:00 +0100
                      Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Latin vulgate

                      >  
                      > Dear Wieland,
                      >  
                      > I already got what I wanted:
                      > Here is the big Wordsworth-White for the Gospels:
                      >
                      > http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentum01whit#page/170/mode/2up
                      >
                      > and then for Acts:
                      >
                      > http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentu00wordgoog#page/n8/mode/2up
                      >
                      > And again for Acts, the General Epistles, and Revelation:
                      >
                      > http://archive.org/stream/nouumtestamentum03whit#page/n5/mode/2up
                      >
                      > All that is missing is Paul...
                      >  
                      > There is antother big edition of the Vetus Latina at the Beuron Institute but far too expensive – at least for me.
                      >  
                      > Yours
                      > Peter
                      >  
                      >  
                      > From: Wieland Willker
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:37 PM
                      > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Latin vulgate
                      >  
                      >  
                      >
                      > > is there a sound critical edition of the latin vulgate for the
                      > > New Testament?
                      >
                      > Define/specify "there" and "sound".
                      > There's the Vulgate from the German Bible Society.
                      >
                      > Best wishes
                      > Wieland
                      > <><
                      > --------------------------
                      > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                      > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                      > Textcritical commentary:
                      > http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
                      >
                      > Please check out the TC forum:
                      > http://tcg.iphpbb3.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Francisco J. Veismann
                      Hi There is also the Neo-Vulgate,i.e. the new edition published under the auspices of the Vatican some years ago. I do not know if it is on line. Kind regards.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 5, 2013
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                        Hi

                        There is also the Neo-Vulgate,i.e. the new edition published under the auspices of the Vatican some years ago.  
                        I do not know if it is on line.

                        Kind regards.

                        avi weizmann
                      • TeunisV
                        This is not the classical Vulgate. Compare message 6786 of this list. Teunis van Lopik
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jan 7, 2013
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                          This is not the "classical" Vulgate.
                          Compare message 6786 of this list.
                          Teunis van Lopik

                          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Francisco J. Veismann" wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi
                          >
                          > There is also the Neo-Vulgate,i.e. the new edition published under the
                          > auspices of the Vatican some years ago.
                          > I do not know if it is on line.
                          >
                          > Kind regards.
                          >
                          > avi weizmann
                          >
                        • mydogregae01
                          I am not sure what you mean by critical edition, one which has an apparatus? Or an accurate edition? And which Vulgate ? An accurate edition of THE 1592
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 1 3:40 PM
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                            I am not sure what you mean by "critical" edition, one which has an apparatus?
                            Or an accurate edition? And which "Vulgate"?

                            An accurate edition of THE 1592 Vulgate is freely available here, with
                            a searchable and printable text. It is a great program again free via Michael Tweedale of Oxford. Program is available here:

                            http://www.biblical-data.org/LATIN_Resources/Latin_Main.html

                            sincerely,
                            Mr. Gary Dykes
                            www.Biblical-data.org

                            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Streitenberger" wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear TC-Friends,
                            >
                            > is there a sound critical edition of the latin vulgate for the New Testament?
                            > Yours
                            > Peter, Germany
                            >
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