Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Mark 5:1 "Gerasenes"

Expand Messages
  • joewallack
    JW: I would like to open up a second front here with the question of the likely original for the location of Mark 5:1: Mark 5:1
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2012
    • 0 Attachment

      JW:
      I would like to open up a second front here with the question of the likely original for the location of Mark 5:1:

      Mark 5:1

      "And they came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. (ASV)"

      I'm specifically looking for responses from Mr. Willker regarding his Textual Criticism site A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels Vol. 2 Mark  but all are welcome to respond except for Harvey Dubish. My link above has my near completed article arguing that "Gerasenes" is likely original to "Mark" and if so, is likely a geographical error.

      First of all Mr. Willker, danke for your well organized and extremely reasonably priced Textual Criticism site. Specifically for Mark 5:1, TVU 97:

      1) You refer to the discussion in the related "Matthew" which has much more analysis. If you accept that "Mark" is likely original (as Authority does) and therefore "Matthew's" version is based on "Mark", wouldn't the detailed discussion be better placed in "Mark"?

      2) You've combined the Manuscript, Patristic and Authority evidence by candidate for originality. I think a clearer presentation would be to divide by Category of External evidence. For "Mark" you do not list the Patristic evidence which I think is easily the strongest.

      3) You say that you think the Manuscript evidence is indecisive. As always, I'm more interested in how you weigh the evidence verses what your conclusions are. Do you think the Manuscript evidence favors any likely original, even if only a little?



      Joseph













    • Wieland Willker
      As I wrote in the discussion at Mt 8:28, there is a slight preference for GERGESHNWN in Mk. Where this Gergesa was, we do not know. Best wishes Wieland
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 6, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        As I wrote in the discussion at Mt 8:28, there is a slight preference for
        GERGESHNWN in Mk.
        Where this "Gergesa" was, we do not know.

        Best wishes
        Wieland
        <><
        --------------------------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical commentary:
        http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

        Please check out the TC forum:
        http://tcg.iphpbb3.com
      • joewallack
        ... for ... JW: My question was what you thought just the Manuscript evidence favored. @ Matthew 8:28 I do not see where you explicitly or even implicitly
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 18, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker" <wie@...> wrote:
          >
          > As I wrote in the discussion at Mt 8:28, there is a slight preference for
          > GERGESHNWN in Mk.
          > Where this "Gergesa" was, we do not know.
           
          JW:
          My question was what you thought just the Manuscript evidence favored. @ Matthew 8:28 I do not see where you explicitly or even implicitly indicated what you thought the Manuscript favored for "Mark". I'll guess your "slight preference" is an overall favoring of Gergesenes?

          Your Manuscript evidence for "Mark":

          Gerasa = 01*, B, D, Latt, sa

          Gergesa = 01C2, L, U, (W), DGr, Q, f1, 22, 28, 33, 565, 579, 700, 892, 1071,
          1241, 1424, al, Sy-S, bo, Epiph

          Basically quality verses quantity with similar opposing teams to a number of other textual issues. Normally the Gerasa team is considered by TC Authority to be on the winning side of the Sea of alternatives.

          On to the Patristic:

          Origen = Clear that the dominant reading in all Gospels is "Gerasa". You write:

          "he does only mention the narrative, not the Gospel"

          and you do not include Origen in your listing of support after "Gerasa". How much weight are you giving Origen here?

          Eusebius = Clear from onomasticon that the Gospels supported "Gerasa".

          Why do you not mention this?

          Jerome = "Gerasa"

          Sure looks like the Vulgate had "Gerasa". Presumably he made a TC decision based on the Greek. Worth more than just another Manuscript is it not?

          Epiphanius = you quote:

          "Then again "He came to the parts of Gergestha", as Mark says, or, "in the coasts of the Gergesenes", as Luke says; or "of the Gadarenes", as in Matthew, or "of the Gergesenes" as some copies [of Matthew] have it, the spot was in between the three territories."

          It's a little hard to believe that he did not either mean "Gerasa" for "Mark" or originally wrote it with his "the spot was in between the three territories" conclusion and almost only the 3 candidates elsewhere. Epiphanius is the only Patristic you've included with the Manuscript evidence. He does not have the credibility of the other 3.

          In summary, to me the Patristic category clearly supports "Gerasa" as likely original and is clearly superior to the Manuscript category in weight of qualitative criteria (Age, Scope, Credibility). Which candidate do you think the Patristric category favors?


          Joseph







































        • schmuel
          Hi Folks, ... preference for ... do not know. Steven Avery It is largely agreed that the Gergesene region (also known as Kursi) is across from Tiberias, just
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 18, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Folks,

            "Wieland Willker" wrote:
            > As I wrote in the discussion at Mt 8:28, there is a slight preference for
            > GERGESHNWN in Mk.   Where this "Gergesa" was, we do not know.

            Steven Avery
            It is largely agreed that the Gergesene region (also known as Kursi) is across from Tiberias, just above the region of Hippo, a region noted for some cliffs.   And this is a very well-attested reading, with many uncials, Greek majority, versional and ECW evidences.  (It is good to see Wieland acknowledging the strength of the majority reading even against the Critical Text.) 

            And this is one of the rare cases where considering scribal proclivities makes some sense.  The Gergesenes area was only a map-blip, so it would be very easy for a scribe, e.g. in Egypt, to decide to change it to a well-known city, either Gerasa or Gadara, being puzzled over an unknown name.

            In a variant like this, your pre-suppositions about the Bible text, as well as your view of Byzantine majority manuscripts and the ECW, will clearly be major factors.  e.g. Skeptics start with the presupposition that the Bible text was written by men who were factually not geographically sharp, a bit bumbling, making lots of errors (e.g. Mark in Rome and oblivious) and thus they see the Gerasa swine marathon as the likely bumbling original, corrected later.  Modern textual critics who lift up lectio difficilior take a similar perspective for in favor of the Gerasa swine marathon, although in this case you have competing difficiliors. (Geographically difficult and unknown city difficult.)  Even putting aside harmonization possibilities.

            JW:
            My question was what you thought just the Manuscript evidence favored. @ Matthew 8:28 I do not see where you explicitly or even implicitly indicated what you thought the Manuscript favored for "Mark".

            Steven
            Why are you comparing Matthew and Mark ?   They are two different Gospel writers, describing events differently. In fact it is very likely that they are describing different events.  By contrast, Mark and Luke are clearly describing the same event.   And the Mark and Luke evidence is extremely strong for the even taking place in the region of the Gadarenes.

            Mark 5:1  (AV)
            And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

            Luke 8:26
            And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.

            Matthew 8:28
            And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes,
            there met him two possessed with devils,
            coming out of the tombs,
            exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

            Shalom,
            Steven Avery
          • yennifmit
            Hi Joe, I wonder whether that variant reflects local knowledge and pronunciation? Gerasa = 01*, B, D, Latt, sa These witnesses might be associated with Egypt
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 19, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Joe,

              I wonder whether that variant reflects local knowledge and pronunciation?

              Gerasa = 01*, B, D, Latt, sa

              These witnesses might be associated with Egypt (01* B sa) and the Latin-speaking part of the Empire (Italy and west of there, D Latt). Both regions may have preferred a transliteration of the place name without a guttural resh sound.

              Gergesa = 01C2, L, U, (W), DGr, Q, f1, 22, 28, 33, 565, 579, 700, 892,
              1071, 1241, 1424, Sy-S, bo, Epiph

              Some of these (01C2 Theta f1 28 565 700 syr-s) are in a part of textual space that might be associated with Syria or Palestine:

              http://www.tfinney.net/Views/cmds/Mark-UBS4.15.SMD.gif

              Perhaps the guttural resh, which might be transliterated to Greek using -rge-, was the preferred rendering in regions where the place name was pronounced with a guttural r sound?

              According to this idea, the difference is a regional spelling variation. There are problems, though. E.g. Why then would cop-sa and cop-bo spell it differently? Also, why do Byzantine witnesses have the guttural spelling? (I don't know whether guttural r was a familiar sound in Egypt.)

              Best,

              Tim Finney



              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "joewallack" <joewallack@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker" <wie@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > As I wrote in the discussion at Mt 8:28, there is a slight preference
              > for
              > > GERGESHNWN in Mk.
              > > Where this "Gergesa" was, we do not know.
              >
              > JW:
              > My question was what you thought just the Manuscript evidence favored. @
              > Matthew 8:28 I do not see where you explicitly or even implicitly
              > indicated what you thought the Manuscript favored for "Mark". I'll guess
              > your "slight preference" is an overall favoring of Gergesenes?
              >
              > Your Manuscript evidence for "Mark":
              >
              > Gerasa = 01*, B, D, Latt, sa
              >
              > Gergesa = 01C2, L, U, (W), DGr, Q, f1, 22, 28, 33, 565, 579, 700, 892,
              > 1071,
              > 1241, 1424, al, Sy-S, bo, Epiph
              >
              > Basically quality verses quantity with similar opposing teams to a
              > number of other textual issues. Normally the Gerasa team is considered
              > by TC Authority to be on the winning side of the Sea of alternatives.
              >
              > On to the Patristic:
              >
              > Origen = Clear that the dominant reading in all Gospels is "Gerasa". You
              > write:
              >
              > "he does only mention the narrative, not the Gospel"
              >
              > and you do not include Origen in your listing of support after "Gerasa".
              > How much weight are you giving Origen here?
              >
              > Eusebius = Clear from onomasticon
              > <http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_onomasticon_02_trans.htm#G_N\
              > UMBERS_AND_DEUTERONOMY> that the Gospels supported "Gerasa".
              >
              > Why do you not mention this?
              >
              > Jerome = "Gerasa"
              >
              > Sure looks like the Vulgate had "Gerasa". Presumably he made a TC
              > decision based on the Greek. Worth more than just another Manuscript is
              > it not?
              >
              > Epiphanius = you quote:
              >
              > "Then again "He came to the parts of Gergestha", as Mark says, or, "in
              > the coasts of the Gergesenes", as Luke says; or "of the Gadarenes", as
              > in Matthew, or "of the Gergesenes" as some copies [of Matthew] have it,
              > the spot was in between the three territories."
              >
              > It's a little hard to believe that he did not either mean "Gerasa" for
              > "Mark" or originally wrote it with his "the spot was in between the
              > three territories" conclusion and almost only the 3 candidates
              > elsewhere. Epiphanius is the only Patristic you've included with the
              > Manuscript evidence. He does not have the credibility of the other 3.
              >
              > In summary, to me the Patristic category clearly supports "Gerasa" as
              > likely original and is clearly superior to the Manuscript category in
              > weight of qualitative criteria (Age, Scope, Credibility). Which
              > candidate do you think the Patristric category favors?
              >
              >
              > Joseph
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > <http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_onomasticon_02_trans.htm#G_N\
              > UMBERS_AND_DEUTERONOMY>
              >
            • Wieland Willker
              First: Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his readings to a specific Gospel. The same is true for Eusebius Onomasticon. My very tentative
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 19, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                First:
                Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his
                readings to a specific Gospel. The same is true for
                Eusebius' Onomasticon.

                My very tentative argumentation goes like this:
                Basically, on external grounds, we have a tie in all three
                Gospels between two readings:
                Mt: Gadara versus Gergesa
                Mk: Gerasa versus Gergesa
                Lk: Gerasa versus Gergesa

                Now I boldly rule out Gerasa, as being geographically
                impossible (60 km away from the lake) and I don't think that
                any of the evangelists wrote this.
                This then would give us Gergesa in Mk and Lk.

                What Mt read I have only a weak argument. Since the wrong
                Gerasa is not found in the Greek tradition of Mt, it is
                probable that Mt did not read Gergesa originally, from which
                Gerasa could have been derived by an error. So we are left
                with Gadara for Mt.

                This would be in agreement with Epiphanius. And possibly
                also Origen, if we assign his majority reading to Mt, which
                is not improbable since Mt is the first and most important
                Gospel.

                At least we can conclude that the incident happened "in the
                area of Gadara", perhaps near a little village called
                Gergesa.
                Mt read Gergesa in his copy of Mk, but changed it to the
                more general, better known "in the area of Gadara". Luke
                kept Gergesa.


                Best wishes
                Wieland
                <><
                --------------------------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                Textcritical commentary:
                http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

                Please check out the TC forum:
                http://tcg.iphpbb3.com
              • George F Somsel
                Wieland Wilker wrote:  This would be in agreement with Epiphanius. And possibly also Origen, if we assign his majority reading to Mt, which is not improbable
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 19, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Wieland Wilker wrote:  "This would be in agreement with Epiphanius. And possibly
                  also Origen, if we assign his majority reading to Mt, which
                  is not improbable since Mt is the first and most important
                  Gospel."

                   
                  That is highly questionable and not generally accepted.
                   
                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________

                  From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:48 PM
                  Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] Re: Mark 5:1 "Gerasenes"

                   
                  First:
                  Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his
                  readings to a specific Gospel. The same is true for
                  Eusebius' Onomasticon.

                  My very tentative argumentation goes like this:
                  Basically, on external grounds, we have a tie in all three
                  Gospels between two readings:
                  Mt: Gadara versus Gergesa
                  Mk: Gerasa versus Gergesa
                  Lk: Gerasa versus Gergesa

                  Now I boldly rule out Gerasa, as being geographically
                  impossible (60 km away from the lake) and I don't think that
                  any of the evangelists wrote this.
                  This then would give us Gergesa in Mk and Lk.

                  What Mt read I have only a weak argument. Since the wrong
                  Gerasa is not found in the Greek tradition of Mt, it is
                  probable that Mt did not read Gergesa originally, from which
                  Gerasa could have been derived by an error. So we are left
                  with Gadara for Mt.

                  This would be in agreement with Epiphanius. And possibly
                  also Origen, if we assign his majority reading to Mt, which
                  is not improbable since Mt is the first and most important
                  Gospel.

                  At least we can conclude that the incident happened "in the
                  area of Gadara", perhaps near a little village called
                  Gergesa.
                  Mt read Gergesa in his copy of Mk, but changed it to the
                  more general, better known "in the area of Gadara". Luke
                  kept Gergesa.

                  Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><
                  --------------------------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                  Textcritical commentary:
                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

                  Please check out the TC forum:
                  http://tcg.iphpbb3.com



                • schmuel
                  Hi, Wieland First: Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his readings to a specific Gospel. The same is true for Eusebius Onomasticon. Steven
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 20, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi,

                    Wieland
                    First:  Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his readings to a specific Gospel. The same is true for Eusebius' Onomasticon.

                    Steven
                    True.  However they give us insight to both the actual geography and the difficulty of understanding from those at a distance and the existing manuscript situation.

                    Wieland
                    My very tentative argumentation goes like this:
                    Basically, on external grounds, we have a tie in all three
                    Gospels between two readings:
                    Mt: Gadara versus Gergesa
                    Mk: Gerasa versus Gergesa
                    Lk:  Gerasa versus Gergesa

                    Steven
                    There are actually 4 verses involved (2 in Luke) and the three in Luke and Mark can be seen as one unit,  with similar evidences and the same basic account.
                    The Matthew summary is sensible, as Gerasa is mostly only Latin there, although it is not chopped liver textually.

                    Let us take one verse:

                    Mark 5:1  (AV)
                    And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.

                    Gadarenes   - Greek (most uncials and Byz) and Syriac evidence strongly favor, some ECW
                    Gerasenes   - Couple of Alexandrian ms and good Latin support (note: harmonization on Gerasa in the Latin mss) some ECW
                    Gergesenes  - Some Greek, good on ECW, strong on versional

                    On straight external grounds, all three are well represented.

                    Wieland
                    Now I boldly rule out Gerasa, as being geographically impossible (60 km away from the lake) and I don't think that any of the evangelists wrote this.

                    Steven
                    Agreed. And it even has a very strong lectio difficilior plus, as it would be the name similar to Gergesa that would be well-known everywhere.

                    Wieland
                    This then would give us Gergesa in Mk and Lk. What Mt read I have only a weak argument. Since the wrong Gerasa is not found in the Greek tradition of Mt, it is probable that Mt did not read Gergesa originally, from which Gerasa could have been derived by an error. So we are left with Gadara for Mt.

                    Steven
                    This is too simplistic. Matthew's Gerasene support is weak, virtually no Greek, mostly Latin, however there are strong harmonization considerations to go with difficilior.  The Latin line settled on a Gerasene in all the verses (much like the Syriac settled on the Gadarenes).  Harmonization to manuscripts that had Gerasa in Luke and Mark takes care of your concern. Granted, you said it was a weak argument :) .

                    Wieland
                    This would be in agreement with Epiphanius. And possibly also Origen, if we assign his majority reading to Mt, which is not improbable since Mt is the first and most important
                    Gospel.  At least we can conclude that the incident happened "in the area of Gadara", perhaps near a little village called Gergesa.

                    Steven
                    Actually, I believe there were two distinct incidents.  There are about a dozen differences (including geographical), 3 or 4 quite major, between the Luke and Mark account compared to the Matthew account.  I do have a separate study on this and probably some references that have previously seen this as two separate incidents.  

                    Note that the theories that Gadara and Gergesa are somehow the same area have great difficulties.  They normally are given with a hand-wave and a high-five, but really have no geographical/historical base.  There simply is the whole Hippo region in the way, going on the basic identification of the Gadarene port on the south of the Sea of Galilee and the Gergesa region being the cliffs across the sea from Tiberias.

                    Wieland
                    Mt read Gergesa in his copy of Mk, but changed it to the more general, better known "in the area of Gadara". Luke kept Gergesa. 

                    Steven
                    Since I believe Luke was written to the high priest Theophilus in 41 AD, I see it as highly unlikely that he copied another Gospel.  You are working with a Markan priority presupposition.

                    Shalom,
                    Steven Avery

                  • joewallack
                    ... JW: Origen. Commentary on John Book VI 24. THE NAME OF THE PLACE WHERE JOHN BAPTIZED IS
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 24, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker" <wie@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > First:
                      > Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his
                      > readings to a specific Gospel.

                      JW:
                      Origen. Commentary on John Book VI 

                      "24. THE NAME OF THE PLACE WHERE JOHN BAPTIZED IS NOT BETHANY, AS IN MOST COPIES, BUT BETHABARA. PROOF OF THIS. SIMILARLY "GERGESA" SHOULD BE READ FOR"GERASA," IN THE STORY OF THE SWINE. ATTENTION IS TO BE PAID TO THE PROPER NAMES IN SCRIPTURE, WHICH ARE OFTEN WRITTEN INACCURATELY, AND ARE OF IMPORTANCE FOR INTERPRETATION."

                      Is this Chapter heading Origen's? The Judaizing Masorah type language, ""GERGESA" SHOULD BE READ FOR"GERASA,"" is evidence that it is. If it is than Origen is clearly referring to the Canonical Gospels ("Scripture"). If it is not than the author clearly thinks that Origen is.

                      "Thus we see that he who aims at a complete understanding of the Holy Scriptures must not neglect the careful examination of the proper names in it. In the matter of proper names the Greek copies are often incorrect, and in the Gospels one might be misled by their authority. The transaction about the swine, which were driven down a steep place by the demons and drowned in the sea, is said to have taken place in the country of the Gerasenes. Now, Gerasa is a town of Arabia, and has near it neither sea nor lake. And the Evangelists would not have made a statement so obviously and demonstrably false; for they were men who informed themselves carefully of all matters connected with Judaea. But in a few copies we have found, "into the country of the Gadarenes;"

                      It's clear that Origen is referring to the Canonical Gospels. The logical implication is that per Origen the dominant Gospel reading in all Gospels was "Gerasenes". Origen's Gadarenes comment coordinates with the subsequent evidence that "Matthew" has Manuscript support for it. I'm getting ahead here but what's interesting for me is not what this says about "Mark". All categories of evidence support "Gerasenes" as likely original to "Mark". Not interesting. What is interesting is that Origen is also evidence that "Gerasenes" was original to "Matthew". This suggests that some of the corrections we see in "Matthew" were not a result of the author but of the Editors. Again, this coordinates with the observation that "Matthew" was the favored early Gospel.


                      >The same is true for
                      > Eusebius' Onomasticon.

                      Same for Eusebius:

                      Eusebius of Caesarea, Onomasticon (1971) Translation. pp. 1-75. CONCERNING THE PLACE NAMES IN SACRED SCRIPTURE.

                      "Gergasei (Gergasi).304 Located on the Jordan near the city of the Galaad (City of Transjordan near tribe Mt.Galaad) which the tribe of Manasse received. It is said to be Gerash the famous city of Arabia. Some affirm it to be Gadara. But the Gospel mentions the Gerassenes (Gergessenes)."

                      The clear implication is that per Eusebius the dominant reading in all Gospels was "Gerasenes". Which again coordinates with Origen.

                      > My very tentative argumentation goes like this:
                      > Basically, on external grounds, we have a tie in all three
                      > Gospels between two readings:
                      > Mt: Gadara versus Gergesa
                      > Mk: Gerasa versus Gergesa
                      > Lk: Gerasa versus Gergesa

                      I do not think your conclusion is supported by the External because of the Patristic category above. Also, if you put Authority in the External, Authority also favors "Gerasenes" for "Mark". In addition, I would add a Scribal category. Not much meat there, but what there is is pretty choice. Sinaiticus has been edited from "Gerasenes" to "Gergesenes" with Origen/Eusebius providing the fuel. Your related transcription exercise is secondary as we have primary evidence of change to away from "Gerasenes". The Scribal category has the key attribute of Direction. Which way is the text moving.

                      > Now I boldly rule out Gerasa, as being geographically
                      > impossible (60 km away from the lake) and I don't think that
                      > any of the evangelists wrote this.
                      > This then would give us Gergesa in Mk and Lk.

                      So the only reason you reject "Gerasenes" as original to "Mark" is because you think it would be an error. That is a type of Internal evidence but the related question is who was more likely to make the error, the author or Editors? Generally, authors are more likely to make errors than Editors. There is also the more basic question of whether it is an error. Error is normally defined as significant distance between intent and result. We can not be sure of what "Mark's" intent was. You are assuming it was to be historically accurate. Related to this, "Gerasenes" is not that bad of an error. It's not like the author wrote "Albuqueque". There is a context of which side of the Sea and Gerasa was the biggest city on the Decapolis side and Decapolis is invoked at the end of the story.

                      > since Mt is the first and most important
                      > Gospel.

                      I believe your meaning is that "Matthew" is placed first in the Canon and was the favored early Gospel. As I explained above, this supports the first change away from "Gerasenes" being in "Matthew" as it had the most early Patristic interest.
                       
                      > At least we can conclude that the incident happened "in the
                      > area of Gadara", perhaps near a little village called
                      > Gergesa.

                      We can be certain that there was no such incident because that would have been Impossible. When I get to the Internal evidence here I'll demonstrate that even if you do not consider the Impossible/Improbable "Mark's" related story tests high for Fictional Criteria. This reduces the supposed objection that "Mark" would not intentionally use a fictional "Gerasenes" as the setting.


                      Joseph
                    • Daniel Buck
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 1, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        <<9. JOHN 1:22.
                        "They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?" This speech of the emissaries amounts to the following: We had a surmise what you were and came to learn if it was so, but now we know that you are not that. It remains for us, therefore. to hear your account of yourself, so that we may report your answer to those who sent us.
                        10. OF THE VOICE JOHN THE BAPTISTS IS. >>

                        No, the chapter heading is obviously not Origen's. It must predate Stephanus' Textus Receptus, which introduced verses into the NT text.
                         
                        Daniel Buck

                        From: joewallack <joewallack@...>
                        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 12:01 PM
                        Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Mark 5:1 "Gerasenes"

                         

                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker" <wie@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > First:
                        > Origen is difficult to judge since he does not assign his
                        > readings to a specific Gospel.

                        JW:
                        Origen. Commentary on John Book VI 

                        "24. THE NAME OF THE PLACE WHERE JOHN BAPTIZED IS NOT BETHANY, AS IN MOST COPIES, BUT BETHABARA. PROOF OF THIS. SIMILARLY "GERGESA" SHOULD BE READ FOR"GERASA," IN THE STORY OF THE SWINE. ATTENTION IS TO BE PAID TO THE PROPER NAMES IN SCRIPTURE, WHICH ARE OFTEN WRITTEN INACCURATELY, AND ARE OF IMPORTANCE FOR INTERPRETATION."

                        Is this Chapter heading Origen's? The Judaizing Masorah type language, ""GERGESA" SHOULD BE READ FOR"GERASA,"" is evidence that it is. If it is than Origen is clearly referring to the Canonical Gospels ("Scripture"). If it is not than the author clearly thinks that Origen is.

                        "Thus we see that he who aims at a complete understanding of the Holy Scriptures must not neglect the careful examination of the proper names in it. In the matter of proper names the Greek copies are often incorrect, and in the Gospels one might be misled by their authority. The transaction about the swine, which were driven down a steep place by the demons and drowned in the sea, is said to have taken place in the country of the Gerasenes. Now, Gerasa is a town of Arabia, and has near it neither sea nor lake. And the Evangelists would not have made a statement so obviously and demonstrably false; for they were men who informed themselves carefully of all matters connected with Judaea. But in a few copies we have found, "into the country of the Gadarenes;"

                        It's clear that Origen is referring to the Canonical Gospels. The logical implication is that per Origen the dominant Gospel reading in all Gospels was "Gerasenes". Origen's Gadarenes comment coordinates with the subsequent evidence that "Matthew" has Manuscript support for it. I'm getting ahead here but what's interesting for me is not what this says about "Mark". All categories of evidence support "Gerasenes" as likely original to "Mark". Not interesting. What is interesting is that Origen is also evidence that "Gerasenes" was original to "Matthew". This suggests that some of the corrections we see in "Matthew" were not a result of the author but of the Editors. Again, this coordinates with the observation that "Matthew" was the favored early Gospel.


                        >The same is true for
                        > Eusebius' Onomasticon.

                        Same for Eusebius:

                        Eusebius of Caesarea, Onomasticon (1971) Translation. pp. 1-75. CONCERNING THE PLACE NAMES IN SACRED SCRIPTURE.

                        "Gergasei (Gergasi).304 Located on the Jordan near the city of the Galaad (City of Transjordan near tribe Mt.Galaad) which the tribe of Manasse received. It is said to be Gerash the famous city of Arabia. Some affirm it to be Gadara. But the Gospel mentions the Gerassenes (Gergessenes)."

                        The clear implication is that per Eusebius the dominant reading in all Gospels was "Gerasenes". Which again coordinates with Origen.

                        > My very tentative argumentation goes like this:
                        > Basically, on external grounds, we have a tie in all three
                        > Gospels between two readings:
                        > Mt: Gadara versus Gergesa
                        > Mk: Gerasa versus Gergesa
                        > Lk: Gerasa versus Gergesa

                        I do not think your conclusion is supported by the External because of the Patristic category above. Also, if you put Authority in the External, Authority also favors "Gerasenes" for "Mark". In addition, I would add a Scribal category. Not much meat there, but what there is is pretty choice. Sinaiticus has been edited from "Gerasenes" to "Gergesenes" with Origen/Eusebius providing the fuel. Your related transcription exercise is secondary as we have primary evidence of change to away from "Gerasenes". The Scribal category has the key attribute of Direction. Which way is the text moving.

                        > Now I boldly rule out Gerasa, as being geographically
                        > impossible (60 km away from the lake) and I don't think that
                        > any of the evangelists wrote this.
                        > This then would give us Gergesa in Mk and Lk.

                        So the only reason you reject "Gerasenes" as original to "Mark" is because you think it would be an error. That is a type of Internal evidence but the related question is who was more likely to make the error, the author or Editors? Generally, authors are more likely to make errors than Editors. There is also the more basic question of whether it is an error. Error is normally defined as significant distance between intent and result. We can not be sure of what "Mark's" intent was. You are assuming it was to be historically accurate. Related to this, "Gerasenes" is not that bad of an error. It's not like the author wrote "Albuqueque". There is a context of which side of the Sea and Gerasa was the biggest city on the Decapolis side and Decapolis is invoked at the end of the story.

                        > since Mt is the first and most important
                        > Gospel.

                        I believe your meaning is that "Matthew" is placed first in the Canon and was the favored early Gospel. As I explained above, this supports the first change away from "Gerasenes" being in "Matthew" as it had the most early Patristic interest.
                         
                        > At least we can conclude that the incident happened "in the
                        > area of Gadara", perhaps near a little village called
                        > Gergesa.

                        We can be certain that there was no such incident because that would have been Impossible. When I get to the Internal evidence here I'll demonstrate that even if you do not consider the Impossible/Improbable "Mark's" related story tests high for Fictional Criteria. This reduces the supposed objection that "Mark" would not intentionally use a fictional "Gerasenes" as the setting.
                      • joewallack
                        JW: Continuing with my textual criticism of your textual criticism of Mark 5:1: A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels Vol. 1 Matthew BY WIELAND WILLKER
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 2, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          JW:
                          Continuing with my textual criticism of your textual criticism of Mark 5:1:

                          A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels Vol. 1 Matthew BY WIELAND WILLKER

                          For TVU 92 27 NA27 Matthew 8:28 you write:

                          "Zahn cannot believe that one of the evangelists really used the well known town Gerasa, which is a two day's journey away from the lake
                          ...
                          If we follow Zahn and rule out Gerasa completely, what was probably the source that led to it? Transcriptionally Gergeshnw/n is more probable:
                          gera shnwn
                          gergeshnwn
                          gadar hnwn
                          So, it is probable that Gergeshnw/n was the original reading in Mk (and Lk). Since the reading Gerasa is not found in the Greek tradition of Mt, it is probable that Mt did not read Gergeshnw/n originally. So we are left with Gadarhnw/n for Mt. Josephus calls the area around Gadara (which is about 10 km from the lake) h` Gadari/tij (Bel. Jud. III 10,10), which belonged to the Dekapolis. So, the incident happened eivj th.n cw,ran tw/n Gadarhnw/n. But the mentioned village cannot be Gadara, which is too far away. There must have been a village called Gergesa. Where was this village? Only in the area of es-Samra hills meet the lake. These are called tulul es-se'alib, "fox-hills". Several ruins can be found there, the highest point is 93 m above the lake. This is the argumentation/speculation of Zahn."

                          Your wording is unclear as to the primary reason you are quoting Zahn here. Is it primarily because he is an Authority or because his argument has significant weight? If it's because he is an Authority this does not help your conclusion much as Authority in general is clearly against him. Your last related post makes clear you think his argument has weight. Following are his main assertions and the problems I see with them:

                          1) Zahn can not believe that "Mark" wrote "Gerasenes" because it would not fit the physical requirements of the story. As I already mentioned, it's more likely that "Mark" originally wrote it than subsequent scribes who would have had the benefit of hundreds of years of thought on the subject and a more historical based assumption.

                          2) He does not consider "Gerasenes" as a possible transcription ancestor because of 1) so his only transcription candidate for "Gadarenes" is "Gergesenes". Close, but so is "Gerasenes". And again, the transcription exercise is secondary as we have superior evidence (Sinaiticus and Patristic) that "Gerasenes" is the ancestor. Also, Gadarenes can be better explained as editing for a position closer to the Sea.

                          3) He says "Gerasenes" is not in the Greek tradition of "Matthew" but Origen/Eusebius not only indicate it was but are evidence that it was the dominant Greek text.

                          To summarize how I see the External Categories and my related objections to your commentary:

                          1) Manuscript = I see the quality as favoring "Gerasenes". I also observe the related dividing of the Manuscripts here as a pattern with the "Gerasenes" team usually on the winning Textual Criticism side. Your observation?

                          2) Patristic = Clearly favors "Gerasenes". You seem to be dismissing Origen/Eusebius because they do not say "Mark" rather than just discounting. Why?

                          3) Scribal = Clearly favors "Gerasenes". Sinaticus' correction is unreMarkable to you?

                          4) Authority = Clearly favors "Gerasenes". I find the attention you give to Zahn inconsistent with the position of Authority here in general. I assume you accept that Authority says "Gerasenes". Why no weight?

                          Note that all of the above coordinate. In Origen/Eusebius' time the text was "Gerasenes". Origen famously objects to "Gerasenes" as not fitting and proposes "Gergesenes" with no Manuscript support. Subsequent Editors accept Origen and change from "Gerasenes". In summary you are rejecting this known explanation and instead selecting an inferior one which is unknown.

                          I'll cover the Internal evidence next.


                          Joseph















                           
                        • George F Somsel
                          All of this speculation regarding the reference to the location was to a known locality.  If, as seems likely, the physical location was not well known to the
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 2, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            All of this speculation regarding the reference to the location was to a known locality.  If, as seems likely, the physical location was not well known to the author, the author may have supplied any location name which became known to him.  The actual location of the site is somewhat immaterial.
                             
                            george
                            gfsomsel

                            search for truth, hear truth,
                            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            defend the truth till death.

                            - Jan Hus
                            _________

                            From: joewallack <joewallack@...>
                            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 11:07 AM
                            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Mark 5:1 "Gerasenes"

                             

                            JW:
                            Continuing with my textual criticism of your textual criticism of Mark 5:1:

                            A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels Vol. 1 Matthew BY WIELAND WILLKER

                            For TVU 92 27 NA27 Matthew 8:28 you write:

                            "Zahn cannot believe that one of the evangelists really used the well known town Gerasa, which is a two day's journey away from the lake
                            ...
                            If we follow Zahn and rule out Gerasa completely, what was probably the source that led to it? Transcriptionally Gergeshnw/n is more probable:
                            gera shnwn
                            gergeshnwn
                            gadar hnwn
                            So, it is probable that Gergeshnw/n was the original reading in Mk (and Lk). Since the reading Gerasa is not found in the Greek tradition of Mt, it is probable that Mt did not read Gergeshnw/n originally. So we are left with Gadarhnw/n for Mt. Josephus calls the area around Gadara (which is about 10 km from the lake) h` Gadari/tij (Bel. Jud. III 10,10), which belonged to the Dekapolis. So, the incident happened eivj th.n cw,ran tw/n Gadarhnw/n. But the mentioned village cannot be Gadara, which is too far away. There must have been a village called Gergesa. Where was this village? Only in the area of es-Samra hills meet the lake. These are called tulul es-se'alib, "fox-hills". Several ruins can be found there, the highest point is 93 m above the lake. This is the argumentation/speculation of Zahn."

                            Your wording is unclear as to the primary reason you are quoting Zahn here. Is it primarily because he is an Authority or because his argument has significant weight? If it's because he is an Authority this does not help your conclusion much as Authority in general is clearly against him. Your last related post makes clear you think his argument has weight. Following are his main assertions and the problems I see with them:

                            1) Zahn can not believe that "Mark" wrote "Gerasenes" because it would not fit the physical requirements of the story. As I already mentioned, it's more likely that "Mark" originally wrote it than subsequent scribes who would have had the benefit of hundreds of years of thought on the subject and a more historical based assumption.

                            2) He does not consider "Gerasenes" as a possible transcription ancestor because of 1) so his only transcription candidate for "Gadarenes" is "Gergesenes". Close, but so is "Gerasenes". And again, the transcription exercise is secondary as we have superior evidence (Sinaiticus and Patristic) that "Gerasenes" is the ancestor. Also, Gadarenes can be better explained as editing for a position closer to the Sea.

                            3) He says "Gerasenes" is not in the Greek tradition of "Matthew" but Origen/Eusebius not only indicate it was but are evidence that it was the dominant Greek text.

                            To summarize how I see the External Categories and my related objections to your commentary:

                            1) Manuscript = I see the quality as favoring "Gerasenes". I also observe the related dividing of the Manuscripts here as a pattern with the "Gerasenes" team usually on the winning Textual Criticism side. Your observation?

                            2) Patristic = Clearly favors "Gerasenes". You seem to be dismissing Origen/Eusebius because they do not say "Mark" rather than just discounting. Why?

                            3) Scribal = Clearly favors "Gerasenes". Sinaticus' correction is unreMarkable to you?

                            4) Authority = Clearly favors "Gerasenes". I find the attention you give to Zahn inconsistent with the position of Authority here in general. I assume you accept that Authority says "Gerasenes". Why no weight?

                            Note that all of the above coordinate. In Origen/Eusebius' time the text was "Gerasenes". Origen famously objects to "Gerasenes" as not fitting and proposes "Gergesenes" with no Manuscript support. Subsequent Editors accept Origen and change from "Gerasenes". In summary you are rejecting this known explanation and instead selecting an inferior one which is unknown.

                            I'll cover the Internal evidence next.


                            Joseph















                             


                          • schmuel
                            Hi Folks, Matthew 8:28 (AV) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 2, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Folks,

                              Matthew 8:28 (AV)
                              And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes,
                              there met him two possessed with devils,
                              coming out of the tombs,
                              exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

                              Wieland Willker expounding on Theodor Zahn
                              " Since the reading Gerasa is not found in the Greek tradition of Mt, it is probable that Mt did not read Gergeshnw/n originally."

                              Steven
                              Here we have the famous evidence from silence expanded into the silence of a non-corruption, a very thin reed :) .

                              Wieland
                              So we are left with Gadarhnw/n for Mt. Josephus calls the area around Gadara (which is about 10 km from the lake) h` Gadari/tij (Bel. Jud. III 10,10), which belonged to the Dekapolis.

                              Steven
                              This Gadarenes--Decapolis connection is very important. 
                              Here is where Decapolis is mentioned, in Mark, not in Matthew. 

                              Mark 5:20  (AV)
                              And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

                              With the Gergesenes region as Kursi, across from Tiberias, that is not a Decapolis region, as it is above Hippo. Thus, allowing that the Gospel writers were well informed, the Decapolis reference is one of many that supports the Received Text - Greek Majority text reading, Gadarenes, matching Decapolis, for Mark and Luke, Gergesenes for Mattthew.  (Putting aside the attempt to place Kursi with Samra.)

                              Wieland
                              So, the incident happened eivj th.n cw,ran tw/n Gadarhnw/n.
                              But the mentioned village cannot be Gadara, which is too far away.

                              Matthew 8:33
                              And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city,
                              and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.

                              Luke 8:27
                              And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man,
                              which had devils long time, and ware no clothes,
                              neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

                              Steven
                              You can not read too much into this, as evidence for or against. The city could have been the few mile trek up the hills (walking distances was far more common in those days, as we see in the Bible) or there could have been a Gadarene port village on the lake, your other alternative.

                              Wieland
                              There must have been a village called Gergesa. Where was this village? Only in the area of es-Samra hills meet the lake. 

                              Steven
                              There is an etymological difficulty here.
                              If you claim Samra was somehow Gergesa, then it becomes the region of the Samra, not just a village.

                              Wieland
                              These are called tulul es-se'alib, "fox-hills". Several ruins can be found there, the highest point is 93 m above the lake. This is the argumentation/speculation of Zahn."

                              Steven
                              This is a bit stale, as incomplete info, as the Kursi identification is more common today for Gergesenes, across from Tiberias. While I disagree with Franz on some elements, this is the basic factual info about Gergesa, he simply mentions the two possibilities. 

                              Note that Franz does not talk of the region of Samra, or even a village, simply that the hill was called Samra at one good, southern (Gadarene) spot.

                              The Demoniacs of Gadara
                              Gordon Franz
                              http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2011/03/07/the-demoniacs-of-gadara.aspx
                              The text is clear that this event took place on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. Two (maybe three) possible sites have been proposed for the setting of the casting of the demons into the swine. The first possibility, which is now a National Park, is the Byzantine Kursi church on the southern banks of the Wadi Samek. The other possibility is Tel Samra, situated under the campground of Kibbutz Ha�on.

                              Stevem
                              Now we switch to JW.

                              JW:
                               Zahn  ...  does not consider "Gerasenes" as a possible transcription ancestor because of 1) so his only transcription candidate for "Gadarenes" is "Gergesenes".

                              Steven
                              This is a reasonable point to make against the minority alexandrian reading of Gadarenes in the text of Matthew. Although, harmonization can often supply a missing possible vector of original inclusion. And you can not read too much into scribal mind-reading theories when there are overlapping elements, like the complex dual-language, lectio difficilior, geography knowledge, harmonization and word-similarity considerations.  You can always have a theory for A to Z.)

                              JW
                              Close, but so is "Gerasenes". And again, the transcription exercise is secondary as we have superior evidence (Sinaiticus and Patristic) that "Gerasenes" is the ancestor.

                              Steven
                              This is basically the same type of error JW made earlier, the previous post.

                              Gerasenes is exceedingly week in Matthew, Sinaiticus supports Gadarenes with correction to Gergesenes. Plus ECW support is weakest of all. So it is hard to fathom what JW is arguing here, perhaps that Gerasenes was the lost Greek "ancestor" of Gadarenes.  However, Gadarenes, if not original in Matthew (and I believe not) is easily explained by harmonization and geographical familiarity as derived from Gergesenes. Thus it does call out for any simplistic transcriptional vector, a concern which is grossly overrated in this verse study.

                              JW
                              Also, Gadarenes can be better explained as editing for a position closer to the Sea. 

                              Steven
                              Except that Alexandrian scribes in gnostic lands are not known for familiarity with Israel geography.
                              e.g. Sinaiticus talks of Nazareth, a city of Judea, a blunder that is generally hidden from view.

                              JW
                              3) He says "Gerasenes" is not in the Greek tradition of "Matthew" ....

                              Steven
                              Which it clearly is not in the extant tradition.
                              The discussion of Origen is limited by the simple fact that he does not discuss any particular books of the three synoptic Gospels.

                              Shalom,
                              Steven Avery
                              Queens, NY
                            • Wieland Willker
                              The manuscript evidence is divided and I consider the case impossible to judge from external evidence. But I agree that the evidence for Gerasa is strong in Mk
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 3, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The manuscript evidence is divided and I consider the case
                                impossible to judge from external evidence. But I agree that
                                the evidence for Gerasa is strong in Mk and Lk.
                                You asked: "Sinaticus' correction is unreMarkable to you?"
                                Yes, since it is harmonistic. The corrector changed the
                                reading in all Gospels to Gergesa.

                                Origen seems to have Gerasa as the majority(?) reading, that
                                is true, but he is assigning no specific Gospel to it.
                                Eusebius is mentioning the names in his Onomastikon without
                                assigning a Gospel. What does this help?
                                Epiphanius is assigning the names to each Gospel and he has
                                Gergesa for Mk and Lk and Gadara in Mt, which is in
                                agreement with the analysis of Zahn.

                                I don't mention Zahn, because he is an authority. He is, but
                                this is not important. I think his argumentation is one
                                possible, although tentative explanation. I am very
                                unconfident that it is correct. It is basically possible of
                                course that Mark (and Lk) wrote Gerasa originally. Note
                                Origen! Then, the other names might be attempts to correct
                                the geographical problem.

                                I think that this is overall very difficult to judge. In the
                                end I left the case as "indecisive".


                                Best wishes
                                Wieland
                                <><
                                --------------------------
                                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                                http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                                Textcritical commentary:
                                http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

                                Please check out the TC forum:
                                http://tcg.iphpbb3.com
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.