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[textualcriticism] Hort's review of Burgon's Last 12 Verses

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  • schmuel
    Hi Folks, James Burgon s 1871 book received an almost immediate response from Hort, in the form of a review that appeared in the Nov. 15, 1871 issue of a
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 14, 2011
      Hi Folks,

      James
      Burgon's 1871 book received an almost immediate response from Hort, in the form of a review that appeared in the Nov. 15, 1871 issue of a journal called "The Academy."  The volume can be found at Google Books.  A review is not the same as a refutation -- and Hort made some claims in his review which themselves should be reviewed (because they are wrong!) -- but Hort outlined the shape of what a refutation would look li

      > rslocc
      > Thank you for that tid-bit I will look into that review a.s.a.p.

      Here is the review.

      The Academy and literature, Volume 2 (1871)
      Fenton Hort Review.
      http://books.google.com/books?id=w63lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA518

      Generally, Hort tries to accuse Burgon of misleading the reader.
      And, ironically, Hort's big accusation is that John William Burgon does not work with Hortian:

              "hidden genealogies
      and circumstances of transmission "
           ! :)

      ========================================================

      First on the Greek ECW

      Hort : "the one clear Greek ante-Nicene testimony (Mr. Burgon numbers six) is that of Irenaeus."

      Quite a difference in count, six to one. 
      There may be more now, and it is true that many of the references are allusions.

      The one agreed is Ireaneus, extremely powerful, considering his writing predates the earliest manuscripts by almost two centuries.

      Irenaeus (wrote c. 180) - Against Heresies, Book III, 10:5-6,
      http://books.google.com/books?id=9HO5ICFl1vsC&pg=PT1372
      http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.xi.html

      Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says:
      "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God; "
      confirming what had been spoken by the prophet:
      "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool."

      From Burgon, before the period of Eusebius and Nicea (which references are still before the earliest manuscripts).
      This may round out the six.

      Papias
      Justin Martyr
      Irenaeus
      Hippolytus
      Acts of Pilate
      Apostolic Constitutions

      Hort: "Tertullian and Cyprian never cite the section"

      This is misleading at best from Hort, since Burgon specifically points out that the Council of Carthage is written up by Cyprian.
      Granted, Burgon calls it both the seventh and eight Council :) .

      Last 12 Verses
      John William Burgon
      http://books.google.com/books?id=2gYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25

       V. At the Seventh Council of Carthage held under Cyprian, a.d. 256, (on the baptizing of Heretics,) Vincentius, Bishop of Thibari, (a place not far from Carthage,) in
      the presence of the eighty-seven assembled African bishops, quoted two of the verses under consideration
      m
      m " In nomine meo manum imponite, daemonia expellite," (Cyprian Opp,p. 237 [Reliqq. Sacr. iii p. 124,] quoting S.Mark xvi. 17,18,)—"In nomine meo daemonia ejicient .... super egrotos manus imponent et bene habebunt."

      http://books.google.com/books?id=2gYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA249
      At the eighth Council of Carthage, (as Cyprian relates,) [a.d. 256] Vincentius a Thiberi, one of the eighty-seven  African Bishops there assembled, quoted the 17th verse in
      the presence of the Council.  (p. 249)

      Emacs! 
                                                                                
      =======================================================================

      Mark 16:17-18
      And these signs shall follow them that believe;
      In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
      They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing,
      it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

      Council of Carthage under Cyprian
      His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons."
      And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." 

      James Snapp
      At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256, a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: 'Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15-18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew.

      =======================================================================

      Since Cyprian oversaw this council, it is more than a bit disingenuous for Hort to claim Cyprian against the section.
      There are other interesting tidbits in the review, especially the Old Latin evidence distortion attempt of Hort.

      Tertullian has a number of good allusions as well, however Burgon basically passed on those, so Hort can get a pass.
      And Burgon has an interesting comment about how the apparatuses can be totally off base.

      Shalom,
      Steven Avery
      Queens, NY
    • George F Somsel
      Unless I ve totally overlooked it, I think you have the wrong link. george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth,
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 14, 2011
        Unless I've totally overlooked it, I think you have the wrong link.
         
        george
        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________
        From: schmuel <schmuel@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:31 AM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Hort's review of Burgon's Last 12 Verses

         
        Hi Folks,

        James
        Burgon's 1871 book received an almost immediate response from Hort, in the form of a review that appeared in the Nov. 15, 1871 issue of a journal called "The Academy."  The volume can be found at Google Books.  A review is not the same as a refutation -- and Hort made some claims in his review which themselves should be reviewed (because they are wrong!) -- but Hort outlined the shape of what a refutation would look li

        > rslocc
        > Thank you for that tid-bit I will look into that review a.s.a.p.

        Here is the review.

        The Academy and literature, Volume 2 (1871)
        Fenton Hort Review.
        http://books.google.com/books?id=w63lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA518

        Generally, Hort tries to accuse Burgon of misleading the reader.
        And, ironically, Hort's big accusation is that John William Burgon does not work with Hortian:

                "hidden genealogies
        and circumstances of transmission "
             ! :)

        ========================================================

        First on the Greek ECW

        Hort : "the one clear Greek ante-Nicene testimony (Mr. Burgon numbers six) is that of Irenaeus."

        Quite a difference in count, six to one. 
        There may be more now, and it is true that many of the references are allusions.

        The one agreed is Ireaneus, extremely powerful, considering his writing predates the earliest manuscripts by almost two centuries.

        Irenaeus (wrote c. 180) - Against Heresies, Book III, 10:5-6,
        http://books.google.com/books?id=9HO5ICFl1vsC&pg=PT1372

        Also, towards the conclusion of his Gospel, Mark says:
        "So then, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God; "
        confirming what had been spoken by the prophet:
        "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit Thou on My right hand, until I make Thy foes Thy footstool."

        From Burgon, before the period of Eusebius and Nicea (which references are still before the earliest manuscripts).
        This may round out the six.

        Papias
        Justin Martyr
        Irenaeus
        Hippolytus
        Acts of Pilate
        Apostolic Constitutions

        Hort: "Tertullian and Cyprian never cite the section"

        This is misleading at best from Hort, since Burgon specifically points out that the Council of Carthage is written up by Cyprian.
        Granted, Burgon calls it both the seventh and eight Council :) .

        Last 12 Verses
        John William Burgon
        http://books.google.com/books?id=2gYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA25

         V. At the Seventh Council of Carthage held under Cyprian, a.d. 256, (on the baptizing of Heretics,) Vincentius, Bishop of Thibari, (a place not far from Carthage,) in
        the presence of the eighty-seven assembled African bishops, quoted two of the verses under consideration
        m
        m " In nomine meo manum imponite, daemonia expellite," (Cyprian Opp,p. 237 [Reliqq. Sacr. iii p. 124,] quoting S.Mark xvi. 17,18,)—"In nomine meo daemonia ejicient .... super egrotos manus imponent et bene habebunt."

        http://books.google.com/books?id=2gYQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA249 | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic
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      • schmuel
        Hi Folks, Steven Here is the review. The Academy and literature, Volume 2 (1871) Fenton Hort Review. http://books.google.com/books?id=w63lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA518
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 15, 2011
          Hi Folks,

          Steven
          Here is the review.

          The Academy and literature, Volume 2 (1871)
          Fenton Hort Review.
          http://books.google.com/books?id=w63lAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA518


          George
          Unless I've totally overlooked it, I think you have the wrong link.

          Steven
          You go to the very bottom of page 518. and then the bulk is in page 519.

          Shalom,
          Steven


          James
          Burgon's 1871 book received an almost immediate response from Hort, in the form of a review that appeared in the Nov. 15, 1871 issue of a journal called "The Academy."  The volume can be found at Google Books.  A review is not the same as a refutation -- and Hort made some claims in his review which themselves should be reviewed (because they are wrong!) -- but Hort outlined the shape of what a refutation would look li
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