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Re: [textualcriticism] Matthew 27:52, 53

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  • Barry H.
    ... From: Atef Wagih To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Matthew 27:52, 53 ... It s
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 12, 2011
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Atef Wagih
      To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:15 PM
      Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Matthew 27:52, 53



      >Thanks everyone for the help and information presented so far.

      >I'm still strugelling to understand why the NET Bible then puts Matt 27:53
      >in *parenthesis* !

      It's simply a matter of punctuation decided upon by the editors of the text.
      the parentheses indicate that the editors feel that the passage is adding
      information that is not directly related to the main flow of discourse. I
      disagree with those editors.

      >I tried to search in the preface or so but could not find an answer.

      This is because rounded parentheses have no text critical value, though they
      do express an interpretive judgment on the part of the editors.

      >I am basically trying to put together an answer to a claim that both verses
      >Matt 27:52 & 53, and especially 53 are not original in the text.

      I wrote my Th.M. thesis on this passage. While that work is juvenile in
      many ways, I still agree with my conclusion then, that passage makes
      internal sense as part of Matthew's discourse, both what he is doing
      theologically in his description of the passion, and with regard to his
      themes throughout Matthew.

      >Sorry if this topic was previously discussed or so.

      Since there are no significant text critical issues (that I'm aware of)
      concerning this text, it probably hasn't been discussed, though I've only
      been on this list about 6 months.

      N.E. Barry Hofstetter, semper melius Latine sonat...
      The American Academy
      http://www.theamericanacademy.net
      (2010 Salvatori Excellence in Education Winner)

      The North American Reformed Seminary
      http://www.tnars.net

      http://my.opera.com/barryhofstetter/blog
      http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry
    • Mike Holmes
      The parentheses around Matt 27:53 in the English translation are strictly a matter of English grammar and punctuation--they have nothing to do with the textual
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 12, 2011
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        The parentheses around Matt 27:53 in the English translation are strictly a matter of English grammar and punctuation--they have nothing to do with the textual criticism of the verse. You will note that there are no marks, either brackets or parentheses, around this verse on the Greek side of the NET Bible. The NET Bible presents this verse as part of the text; in the English translation, it puts them in parentheses to indicate the view of the translators that the sentence is a "parenthetical comment" in the flow of the passage.
        hope this helps,
        Michael

        On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Atef Wagih <atef_wagih@...> wrote:
         

        Thanks everyone for the help and information presented so far.
         
        I'm still strugelling to understand why the NET Bible then puts  Matt 27:53 in *parenthesis* !
         
        I tried to search in the preface or so but could not find an answer.
         
        I am basically trying to put together an answer to a claim that both verses Matt 27:52 & 53, and especially 53 are not original in the text.
         
         
        Sorry if this topic was previously discussed or so.
         
        In Christ,
        Atef Raouf
         

        From: Stephen Carlson <stemmatic@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, 11 October 2011 11:31 PM
        Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Matthew 27:52, 53

         
        On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:35 PM, Atef Wagih <atef_wagih@...> wrote:
        Sorry if my question seems novice, but i can't understand why the NET Bible puts the entire Matthew 27:53 between brackets.

        The NET Bible puts the entire Matt 27:53 in *parenthesis* (called "round brackets" outside the US).  Those are not the *square* brackets that indicate a textually uncertain passage.

        Stephen
        --
        Stephen C. Carlson
        Graduate Program in Religion
        Duke University



      • james_snapp_jr
        Dear Atef, We here in Indiana are praying for the Coptic Christians, and for Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran. In the NET, when normal parentheses (the shapes at the
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 12, 2011
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          Dear Atef,

          We here in Indiana are praying for the Coptic Christians, and for Youcef Nadarkhani in Iran.

          In the NET, when normal parentheses
          (the shapes at the beginning and end of this line)
          surround a sentence or phrase, this does not mean that there is any doubt about the passage. Their presence in the NET is due to the translators' decision to represent Mt. 27:53 as a sort of interruption, because it refers to a future point in time instead of the scene of Christ's crucifixion.

          The use of square brackets
          [the shapes at the beginning and end of this line]
          is intended to convey doubt about the genuineness of the passage which they surround. But this is not what was meant by the parentheses in the NET at Mt. 27:53.

          By the way, your question may illustrate something about MS 2427, "Archaic Mark," a forgery which was consistently cited in the 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland GNT in Mark. Whoever made 2427 was, as Stephen Carlson has shown, basing his work on a printed Greek text published by Phillip Buttmann. In Buttmann's printed Greek NT, Mark 7:3-4 is within parentheses, and at Mark 13:14, the words "let the reader understand" are within round parentheses. The person who made 2427 misinterpreted those round parentheses as if they were intended to convey doubt about the passage. As a result, in 2427, Mark 7:3-4 and the parenthetical phrase in Mark 13:14 are missing.

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
        • George F Somsel
          I see nothing to indicate that ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω should be considered a gloss. george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 12, 2011
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            I see nothing to indicate that ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω should be considered a gloss.
             
            george
            gfsomsel

            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________
            From: Atef Wagih <atef_wagih@...>
            To: "textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com" <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 8:00 PM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13: 14

             
            Hi All,
             
            Thank you for all the information regarding Matthew 27.
             
            One of the claims i am trying to prepare a reply to is that the words " Let the reader understand" in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13: 14 were "added later by the scribes to refer the readers to incidents that happened in history" and that these words were not an original part of the verses !
             
            However, i have searched in all the textual variants lists, whether in Greek or English, and have not find any scientific reference to these claims.
             
            All what i found in regards to these verses is related to Daniel the prophet and whether there is a harmonization or not.
             
            My question is: are there any scientific grounds for such a claim? or is it just an explanatory part (like Matthew 27:53) in my previous post.
             
            Thank you
             
            in Christ,
            Atef Raouf.


          • Wieland Willker
            The books are now also on archive.org:
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 18, 2011
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              The books are now also on archive.org:

               

              http://www.archive.org/details/Hoskier-ConcerningTheTextOfTheApokalypse

               

              Hermann C. Hoskier

              "Concerning the Text of the Apokalypse"

              Collations of all existing available Greek documents, plus versions, commentaries and fathers

              Both volumes in one PDF

              1465 pages, 1929

               

              Best wishes

                  Wieland

                  <><

              --------------------------

              Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany

              http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie

              Textcritical commentary:

              http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/

               

              Please check out the TC forum:

              http://tcg.iphpbb3.com

               

               

              From: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com [mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Streitenberger
              Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 4:21 PM
              To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [textualcriticism] Hoskier online

               




              For all friends here on this list, I'd like to announce that the Hoksier book concerning the Apocalypse is online now. Hoskier collated many of the MSS of Revelation and his results are written in this book. Please visit my homepage: ttp://www.bingo-ev.de/~ps2866/conc-text.pdf (ca. 65 MB)

              Yours

              Peter, Germany


               




            • Daniel Buck
              For those who struggle to follow Hoskier s manuscript numbering system and wish someone would translate it all to GA numbers, the good news from Christian
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 19, 2011
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                For those who struggle to follow Hoskier's manuscript numbering system and wish someone would translate it all to GA numbers, the good news from Christian Askeland at the ETC blog is that a team based at the Kirchliche Hochschule Wuppertal-Bethel has started work on an Editio Critica Major of the book of Revelation in partnership with the International Greek New Testament Project. The Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft (German Research Fund) has funded the initiative.

                Daniel Buck


                ________________________________
                From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
                The books are now also on archive.org:


                http://www.archive.org/details/Hoskier-ConcerningTheTextOfTheApokalypse

                Hermann C. Hoskier
                "Concerning the Text of the Apokalypse"
                Collations of all existing available Greek documents, plus versions, commentaries and fathers
                Both volumes in one PDF
                1465 pages, 1929  
              • David Palmer
                Ahem, my table of ms. number conversions is accurate as far as I know.  And it s free.  If there is an error, I d like to hear about it.
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 19, 2011
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                  Ahem, my table of ms. number conversions is accurate as far as I know.  And it's free.  If there is an error, I'd like to hear about it.
                  http://bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf

                  Hoskier's Vol. 2 is also available in print inexpensively from Lulu ($21.55):

                  http://bit.ly/ptecDg
                   
                  David Robert Palmer
                  http://bibletranslation.ws/palmer-translation/
                   
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