Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Chromatius, Mark 16:19, and Luke 24:51

Expand Messages
  • james_snapp_jr
    I think I have found another patristic witness for Mark 16:9-20. Chromatius of Aquileia (active in the late 380 s-406) wrote a series of sermons on the Gospel
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 29 2:09 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I think I have found another patristic witness for Mark 16:9-20.

      Chromatius of Aquileia (active in the late 380's-406) wrote a series of sermons on the Gospel of Matthew (Tractatus in evangelium Matthaei). Stephen Carlson translated the prologue to those sermons into English in 2005; the translation is online at

      http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chromatius_prologue_matthew_01.htm

      And in the course of his Prologue, Chromatius discusses the symbols of the Evangelists (Man, Lion, Ox, Eagle), Irenaeus-style. He discusses them in the Western order, so the Lion is assigned to John, and the Eagle is assigned to Mark.

      Let's pick things up in paragraph seven of Chromatius' Prologue, after he has explained why the Ox is the fitting symbol for the Gospel of Luke:

      "To be sure, the appearance of the flying eagle is understood as the gospel according to Mark, who began with a prophetic testimony saying: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ Son of God, as is written in Isaiah: Behold I send my angel before my appearance. A voice crying in the wilderness: Prepare the ways of the Lord, make our God's paths straight."

      And he keeps going:

      "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

      It certainly looks like Chromatius is saying that Mark says that Jesus ascended to heaven -- which is only stated in Mark 16:19.

      A secondary question arises: what kind of Gospels-text was Chromatius using? It would seem as if his text of Luke 24 did not mention Jesus' ascension to heaven. Perhaps a review of the remainder of his writings could provide some further insight about that.

      Yours in Christ,

      James Snapp, Jr.
    • George F Somsel
      Ac 1:1 Τὸν μὲν πρῶτον λόγον ἐποιησάμην περὶ πάντων, ὦ Θεόφιλε, ὧν ἤρξατο ὁ Ἰησοῦς
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 30 12:00 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Ac 1:1
        Τὸν μὲν πρῶτον λόγον ἐποιησάμην περὶ πάντων, ὦ Θεόφιλε, ὧν ἤρξατο ὁ Ἰησοῦς ποιεῖν τε καὶ διδάσκειν,
        2 ἄχρι ἧς ἡμέρας ἐντειλάμενος τοῖς ἀποστόλοις διὰ πνεύματος ἁγίου οὓς ἐξελέξατο ἀνελήμφθη.
         
        Lk 22:69
        69
        ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν δὲ ἔσται ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου καθήμενος ἐκ δεξιῶν τῆς δυνάμεως τοῦ θεοῦ.
         
        Eph 1:20
        20
        Ἣν ἐνήργησεν ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐγείρας αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν καὶ καθίσας ἐν δεξιᾷ αὐτοῦ ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις
         
         
        george
        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________
        From: james_snapp_jr <voxverax@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 2:09 PM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Chromatius, Mark 16:19, and Luke 24:51

         
        I think I have found another patristic witness for Mark 16:9-20.

        Chromatius of Aquileia (active in the late 380's-406) wrote a series of sermons on the Gospel of Matthew (Tractatus in evangelium Matthaei). Stephen Carlson translated the prologue to those sermons into English in 2005; the translation is online at

        http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chromatius_prologue_matthew_01.htm

        And in the course of his Prologue, Chromatius discusses the symbols of the Evangelists (Man, Lion, Ox, Eagle), Irenaeus-style. He discusses them in the Western order, so the Lion is assigned to John, and the Eagle is assigned to Mark.

        Let's pick things up in paragraph seven of Chromatius' Prologue, after he has explained why the Ox is the fitting symbol for the Gospel of Luke:

        "To be sure, the appearance of the flying eagle is understood as the gospel according to Mark, who began with a prophetic testimony saying: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ Son of God, as is written in Isaiah: Behold I send my angel before my appearance. A voice crying in the wilderness: Prepare the ways of the Lord, make our God's paths straight."

        And he keeps going:

        "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

        It certainly looks like Chromatius is saying that Mark says that Jesus ascended to heaven -- which is only stated in Mark 16:19.

        A secondary question arises: what kind of Gospels-text was Chromatius using? It would seem as if his text of Luke 24 did not mention Jesus' ascension to heaven. Perhaps a review of the remainder of his writings could provide some further insight about that.

        Yours in Christ,

        James Snapp, Jr.



      • james_snapp_jr
        George, Chromatius states - in the middle of a discussion about the Gospels and their symbols - that Mark is the only one reports that our Lord and Savior flew
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 31 6:54 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          George,

          Chromatius states - in the middle of a discussion about the Gospels and their symbols - that Mark is the only one reports that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven.

          And, as he does this, he is loosely echoing Irenaeus' comments (in Against Heresies III:11:8) about the Gospel-symbols.

          So unless you mean to say that the book of Acts and the book of Ephesians were categorized by Chromatius as one of the Gospels -- which would obviously be absurd -- the quotations you provide from those books are absolutely irrelevant. And, regarding the remaining quotation you provided, from Luke 22:69, it should be obvious to anyone who examines the passage with a modicum of intelligence that it is part of a statement by Jesus; it is not a narrative-report of Jesus' ascension.

          Here again is the quotation from Chromatius about Mark:

          "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

          Do you have anything else to say about this?

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
        • George F Somsel
          Does it really matter whether it was a gospel, Paul or Acts?  I think Acts, however, might have been classified with Luke which would shoot holes in your
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 31 7:48 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Does it really matter whether it was a gospel, Paul or Acts?  I think Acts, however, might have been classified with Luke which would shoot holes in your insistence that it be a gospel.  Obviously, Paul wrote before the gospels so the fraudulent long ending of Mark would not be the first to proclaim that Jesus was taken in to heaven even if it could be proven to be genuine -- which it will never be.
             
            george
            gfsomsel

            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________
            From: james_snapp_jr <voxverax@...>
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:54 AM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Chromatius, Mark 16:19, and Luke 24:51

             
            George,

            Chromatius states - in the middle of a discussion about the Gospels and their symbols - that Mark is the only one reports that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven.

            And, as he does this, he is loosely echoing Irenaeus' comments (in Against Heresies III:11:8) about the Gospel-symbols.

            So unless you mean to say that the book of Acts and the book of Ephesians were categorized by Chromatius as one of the Gospels -- which would obviously be absurd -- the quotations you provide from those books are absolutely irrelevant. And, regarding the remaining quotation you provided, from Luke 22:69, it should be obvious to anyone who examines the passage with a modicum of intelligence that it is part of a statement by Jesus; it is not a narrative-report of Jesus' ascension.

            Here again is the quotation from Chromatius about Mark:

            "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

            Do you have anything else to say about this?

            Yours in Christ,

            James Snapp, Jr.



          • james_snapp_jr
            Dear George: GFS: Does it really matter whether it was a gospel, Paul or Acts? Yes, of course. Chromatius is discussing the Gospels. The book of Acts is
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 31 12:21 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear George:

              GFS: "Does it really matter whether it was a gospel, Paul or Acts?"

              Yes, of course. Chromatius is discussing the Gospels. The book of Acts is not a Gospel. There is no reason to imagine that Chromatius would categorize Acts as a Gospel. The idea is eliminated by Chromatius' own explicit listing of the Gospels, followed by his description of the Gospels. It is obvious that he is focused on the Gospels throughout his discussion.

              GFS: "I think Acts, however, might have been classified with Luke which would shoot holes in your insistence that it be a gospel."

              Why do you -- why would anyone! -- imagine that Chromatius, in his discussion of the evangelists' symbols, be thinking about Acts?? It is evident that he was not thinking about Acts because he says that only Mark mentions Christ's ascension; Acts 1 mentions the ascension, too, so if the nature of Chromatius' focused discussion is not enough to convince you that he was referring only to the four Gospels, this is an extra demonstration that he did not have other books in mind. He was comparing the Gospel of Mark to the other Gospels.

              GFS: "Paul wrote before the gospels so the fraudulent long ending of Mark would not be the first to proclaim that Jesus was taken in to heaven."

              Chromatius is not talking about Paul, or any other NT book except the four Gospels. And as he describes the four Gospels, he says that Mark is the only one that mentions Christ's ascension; i.e., Mark is the only Gospel-author who mentions Christ's ascension in his Gospel-account.

              Are you sure you read Chromatius' statement carefully? I will present it again, with a couple of explanatory notes:

              "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he [that is, Mark] is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he [that is, Mark] reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

              This implies two things: Chromatius' text of Luke 24:51 did not explicitly mention Christ's ascension, and his text of Luke *did* mention Christ's ascension.

              So it seems obvious that Chromatius, like over 30 other writers in the early church, had a text of Mark that contained the genuine canonical inspired legitimate and authentic ending of the Gospel of Mark. :)

              Does anyone else have any observations about this piece of patristic evidence?

              Yours in Christ,

              James Snapp, Jr.
            • George F Somsel
              According to your and my definition Acts is not a gospel, but it may have been considered simply the second half of Luke just as 2 Kg is the second half of
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 31 2:05 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                According to your and my definition Acts is not a gospel, but it may have been considered simply the second half of Luke just as 2 Kg is the second half of Kings or 2 Chron is the second half of Chronicles.  Your argumentation is not the least bit convincing.  The concept of Christ ascending into heaven and sitting at the right hand of God was "in the air" in the early Church.  I think that whoever constructed an ending for Mark gathered up the fragments of tradition floating around and put them together in the NEW ending for Mark.  The bit about handling snakes sounds a bit like it derived from the account of Paul's encounter with a viper in Acts.  Acts itself seems to be late since it displays a growing tendency toward a hagiography with various miraculous events being described such as people being healed by a shadow cast upon them and articles of clothing being carried to the homebound.  Mk 16.9 ff is definitely a secondary accretion.
                 
                george
                gfsomsel

                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________
                From: james_snapp_jr <voxverax@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 12:21 PM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Chromatius, Mark 16:19, and Luke 24:51

                 
                Dear George:

                GFS: "Does it really matter whether it was a gospel, Paul or Acts?"

                Yes, of course. Chromatius is discussing the Gospels. The book of Acts is not a Gospel. There is no reason to imagine that Chromatius would categorize Acts as a Gospel. The idea is eliminated by Chromatius' own explicit listing of the Gospels, followed by his description of the Gospels. It is obvious that he is focused on the Gospels throughout his discussion.

                GFS: "I think Acts, however, might have been classified with Luke which would shoot holes in your insistence that it be a gospel."

                Why do you -- why would anyone! -- imagine that Chromatius, in his discussion of the evangelists' symbols, be thinking about Acts?? It is evident that he was not thinking about Acts because he says that only Mark mentions Christ's ascension; Acts 1 mentions the ascension, too, so if the nature of Chromatius' focused discussion is not enough to convince you that he was referring only to the four Gospels, this is an extra demonstration that he did not have other books in mind. He was comparing the Gospel of Mark to the other Gospels.

                GFS: "Paul wrote before the gospels so the fraudulent long ending of Mark would not be the first to proclaim that Jesus was taken in to heaven."

                Chromatius is not talking about Paul, or any other NT book except the four Gospels. And as he describes the four Gospels, he says that Mark is the only one that mentions Christ's ascension; i.e., Mark is the only Gospel-author who mentions Christ's ascension in his Gospel-account.

                Are you sure you read Chromatius' statement carefully? I will present it again, with a couple of explanatory notes:

                "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he [that is, Mark] is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he [that is, Mark] reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

                This implies two things: Chromatius' text of Luke 24:51 did not explicitly mention Christ's ascension, and his text of Luke *did* mention Christ's ascension.

                So it seems obvious that Chromatius, like over 30 other writers in the early church, had a text of Mark that contained the genuine canonical inspired legitimate and authentic ending of the Gospel of Mark. :)

                Does anyone else have any observations about this piece of patristic evidence?

                Yours in Christ,

                James Snapp, Jr.



              • George F Somsel
                Mark 1:2 Καθὼς γέγραπται ἐν τῷ Ἠσαΐᾳ τῷ προφήτῃ·ἰδοὺ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 31 10:50 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mark 1:2
                  Καθὼς γέγραπται ἐν τῷ Ἠσαΐᾳ τῷ προφήτῃ·
                  ἰδοὺ ἀποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου πρὸ προσώπου σου,
                  Malachi 3:1
                  1 הִנְנִי שֹׁלֵחַ מַלְאָכִי וּפִנָּה־דֶרֶךְ לְפָנָי וּפִתְאֹם יָבוֹא אֶל־הֵיכָלוֹ הָאָדוֹן אֲשֶׁר־אַתֶּם מְבַקְשִׁים וּמַלְאַךְ הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר־אַתֶּם חֲפֵצִים הִנֵּה־בָא אָמַר יהוה צְבָאוֹת׃
                   
                  Malachi 3:1
                  1 See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight—indeed, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.
                   
                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  … search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.


                  - Jan Hus
                  _________
                  From: james_snapp_jr <voxverax@...>
                  To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 12:21 PM
                  Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: Chromatius, Mark 16:19, and Luke 24:51

                   
                  Dear George:

                  GFS: "Does it really matter whether it was a gospel, Paul or Acts?"

                  Yes, of course. Chromatius is discussing the Gospels. The book of Acts is not a Gospel. There is no reason to imagine that Chromatius would categorize Acts as a Gospel. The idea is eliminated by Chromatius' own explicit listing of the Gospels, followed by his description of the Gospels. It is obvious that he is focused on the Gospels throughout his discussion.

                  GFS: "I think Acts, however, might have been classified with Luke which would shoot holes in your insistence that it be a gospel."

                  Why do you -- why would anyone! -- imagine that Chromatius, in his discussion of the evangelists' symbols, be thinking about Acts?? It is evident that he was not thinking about Acts because he says that only Mark mentions Christ's ascension; Acts 1 mentions the ascension, too, so if the nature of Chromatius' focused discussion is not enough to convince you that he was referring only to the four Gospels, this is an extra demonstration that he did not have other books in mind. He was comparing the Gospel of Mark to the other Gospels.

                  GFS: "Paul wrote before the gospels so the fraudulent long ending of Mark would not be the first to proclaim that Jesus was taken in to heaven."

                  Chromatius is not talking about Paul, or any other NT book except the four Gospels. And as he describes the four Gospels, he says that Mark is the only one that mentions Christ's ascension; i.e., Mark is the only Gospel-author who mentions Christ's ascension in his Gospel-account.

                  Are you sure you read Chromatius' statement carefully? I will present it again, with a couple of explanatory notes:

                  "And because the eagle is often described as the form of the holy spirit, who has been spoken in the prophets, he [that is, Mark] is thus depicted in the appearance of an eagle. For also only he [that is, Mark] reported that our Lord and Savior flew away to heaven, that is, went back to the Father, as David had said: He ascended above the Cherubim and flew; he flew above the feathers of the wind."

                  This implies two things: Chromatius' text of Luke 24:51 did not explicitly mention Christ's ascension, and his text of Luke *did* mention Christ's ascension.

                  So it seems obvious that Chromatius, like over 30 other writers in the early church, had a text of Mark that contained the genuine canonical inspired legitimate and authentic ending of the Gospel of Mark. :)

                  Does anyone else have any observations about this piece of patristic evidence?

                  Yours in Christ,

                  James Snapp, Jr.



                • james_snapp_jr
                  Dear George: GFS: Acts may have been considered simply the second half of Luke. There is simply no way to justify the idea that Chromatius, in his
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 1, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear George:

                    GFS: Acts "may have been considered simply the second half of Luke."

                    There is simply no way to justify the idea that Chromatius, in his discussion of the four Gospels, each of which he names and describes, thought of the book of Acts as Part II of the Gospel of Luke. Luke is Luke, and Acts is Acts. This should not be difficult to see; nor is it difficult to see that Chromatius defined the Gospels as Mt-Jn-Lk-Mk, not as Mt-Jn-Lk-Acts-Mk.

                    GFS: "Your argumentation is not the least bit convincing."

                    What argumentation? I am just pointing you to the implications of the evidence, and the evidence is clear: Chromatius states that Mark was the only Gospel to mention Christ's ascension. Right?

                    GFS: "The concept of Christ ascending into heaven and sitting at the right hand of God was "in the air" in the early Church."

                    No doubt, but Chromatius was not writing about common concepts accepted by the early church; he was writing about what was found written in the Gospel of Mark. Right?

                    GFS: "I think that whoever constructed an ending for Mark gathered up the fragments of tradition floating around and put them together in the NEW ending for Mark. . . ."

                    And this person decided to re-introduce Mary Magdalene, restate the time of day, and forgot about Mary Magdalene's companions, and, although he saw that the resurection-scene forecast in 16:7 was to be in Galilee, he selected appearances in or near Jerusalem as the way to end Mark??? And he knew about the scene described in Jn. 21, but did not use it???

                    GFS: "Acts itself seems to be late" . . .

                    A very worthwhile subject, no doubt, but can we focus on Chromatius' reference to the contents of Mark 16:19?

                    GFS: "Mk 16.9 ff is definitely a secondary accretion."

                    Secondary, yes. Jeremiah 52 is also secondary; Proverbs 30 and 31 are secondary; John 21 and II Cor. 10-13 may be, in some sense, secondary. And so forth. But the involvement of a co-author or a redactor does not disqualify a passage from being part of the original text. Or, to put it another way, a secondary part of the production-stage is still part of the production-stage.

                    Accretion, no. Mk. 16:9-20 was added while the text was in its production-stage; it was previously a freestanding text of approximately the same genre as what Paul uses in I Cor. 15. It was not initially composed for the purpose of concluding the Gospel of Mark (though there is no serious obstacle to the idea that Mark wrote it) but it was attached for that purpose, before the text of the Gospel of Mark began its transmission-stage.

                    But before we explore Planet Ending-of-Mark, let's map out this small moon of Chromatius. Do you understand the two implications of what Chromatius says?

                    Yours in Christ,

                    James Snapp, Jr.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.