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Re: A Beginner

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  • bucksburg
    I m sorry, I momentarily forgot to include Tischendorf on that list of TC founding fathers. Actually, though, I think you can restrict yourself to the founding
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 2, 2005
      I'm sorry, I momentarily forgot to include Tischendorf on that list of
      TC founding fathers. Actually, though, I think you can restrict
      yourself to the founding fathers whose works were published in English
      (Tregelles, Hort, Burgon, and Scrivener) and not be out a whole lot.
      Otherwise, you are going to have to do a lot of reading in German and
      Latin.
      Daniel Buck
    • Kevin W. Woodruff
      I would have to respectfully disagree. All of the founding fathers of textual criticism (of whom I have nothing but respect) were unaware of the papyri finds
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 3, 2005
        I would have to respectfully disagree. All of the
        founding fathers of textual criticism (of whom I have
        nothing but respect) were unaware of the papyri finds
        at Oxyrhynchus that have completely revolutionized
        textual criticism. A beginner will have difficulty
        (both practically and monetarily) getting a hold of
        any of the works recommended (with the exception of
        Burgon and Scrivener), As a beginner, pre-digested
        pablum is sometimes a desirable thing.

        Kevin


        --- bucksburg <elwabook@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Si wrote:
        > <<I'm brand-new to this group. I've been studying NT
        > Greek for nearly
        > two years and am really interested in the little I
        > have learned about
        > Textual Criticism in that time.
        >
        > I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to
        > develop my
        > understanding and knowledge of the subject?>>
        >
        > Kevin wrote:
        > <I would recommend reading the following books to
        > give
        > you a general idea of the theory and practice of
        > textual criticism:
        > Black, 1994
        > Greenlee, 1995, 1985.
        > Elliot, 1995.
        > Vaganay, 1991.
        > Aland, 1989.
        > Comfort, 1992 1990.
        > Black, 2002.
        > Finegan, 1974
        > Metzger, 1981.>
        >
        > Si, I wouldn't recommend you read any of these books
        > quite yet. Note
        > that they were mostly written in the 1980's and
        > 1990's. Now, textual
        > criticism has been around for centuries, and just
        > about everything
        > anyone needs to know about the CONTROVERSY and
        > METHODS of tc was
        > already in print 100 years ago. So books written in
        > the 1980's
        > basically only re-hashed what was written in the
        > 50's (of course
        > tying in any new textual discoveries, of which there
        > were very few
        > during that time), which in turn only re-hashed what
        > was written in
        > the 1920's, which in turn re-hashed what was written
        > in the late
        > 1800's, with the addition of quite a few textual
        > discoveries which
        > had gone a long way toward discrediting much of what
        > was written so
        > authoritatively in the late 1800's.
        >
        > Just to warn you, all of the above books will
        > eventually be
        > obsolete, replaced by the corrected and updated
        > editions which will
        > be coming off the presses in the next 20 years, by
        > which time the
        > entire NT MSS corpus will probably be available
        > online and the text
        > of the NT will finally have been collated against
        > every extant
        > manuscript.
        >
        > I suggest that you restrict yourself for now to
        > reading the founding
        > fathers of textual criticism: Greisbach, Tregelles,
        > Hort, Burgon,
        > and Scrivener. Once you find yourself agreeing with
        > any of their
        > approaches to textual criticism (and they differ
        > widely), THEN read
        > the modern experts to see why they consider the
        > approaches of the
        > above giants to be obsolete and outdated (and they,
        > too, differ
        > widely).
        >
        > It will take a lot of work to get your hands on the
        > books I
        > recommend. Some of what Burgon wrote is back in
        > print now, but most
        > of his NT textual commentary is still in ms form at
        > some museum in
        > Britain (something like 30,000 pages as I recall).
        > But if you want
        > to avoid pre-digested pablum in coming to your own
        > conclusions on
        > this very important but highly controversial
        > subject, you are not
        > going to be able to avoid a lot of work.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and Greek
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
      • spatter5on
        ... A few months ago I found photos/scans of (i think) the whole of sinaitucus and other ancient manuscripts on the internet somewhere...but I ve lost the
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 4, 2005
          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@h...> wrote:

          > If you can get hold of a manuscript- like Sinaiticus

          A few months ago I found photos/scans of (i think) the whole of
          sinaitucus and other ancient manuscripts on the internet
          somewhere...but I've lost the link. Does anyone know the site. I
          though there was a link to it from Rod Deckers site, but I can't find
          it now...?

          PS - Thanks Jim and everyone else for your suggestions and
          recommendations...it'll look into them...


          Si~
        • Wieland Willker
          Some (pseudo-)facsimiles can be found at: http://www.bibles.org.uk/pdf/bibles/00README.shtml The following two online-works are a MUST-READ: Westcott-Hort
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 4, 2005
            Some (pseudo-)facsimiles can be found at:
            http://www.bibles.org.uk/pdf/bibles/00README.shtml

            The following two online-works are a MUST-READ:
            Westcott-Hort intro:
            http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/Ebind/docs/TC/WH1881/
            (password: "any" - "any")

            THE FOUR GOSPELS by B.H. Streeter
            http://www.katapi.org.uk/4Gospels/Contents.htm


            you should perhaps also read Robert Waltz' Encyclopedia in toto:
            http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/

            some more links:
            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html#text

            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            ------------------------------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
          • William Warren
            I would agree with Kevin on the starting point being well served through some of the more recent introductory works in the field. I ve found that a general
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 4, 2005
              I would agree with Kevin on the starting point being well served
              through some of the more recent introductory works in the field. I've
              found that a general information base that is as up-to-date as possible
              provides a basic knowledge or overview of the field that is needed by
              most for digesting the earlier seminal works. On the other hand, I
              have a number of students in my intro to NT TC courses that are not
              going to take more than an intro. course to TC, so I need to provide as
              good an overview of the field as possible in just one semester. If
              students on the front end already know that they want to go further in
              TC than the intro course, that would perhaps warrant a different
              approach. I would also suggest that some acquaintance with the mss. is
              indispensable, with collating (as several have suggested) and
              observation of the marginalia, etc. essential.

              May I also posit a further question in this discussion? What are those
              who teach TC actually doing in their intro courses? I think a
              description of what the courses cover would be beneficial to all. For
              example, in my M.Div. intro. course, I use Metzger, Aland and Aland,
              and Ehrman and Holmes as the main textbooks for the history and theory
              side. I've had students make a page of papyrus more often than not and
              write a favorite verse from a ms. or the GNT on it so they could get a
              sense of both the materials and processes for papyrus. I use about 2/3
              of the course for covering the history of the text and method, with
              collating being done in conjunction with this part so that the nature
              of the variants and differences between mss. and text-types can be
              understood, then the last 1/3 of the course covers specific variants in
              the NT, and looking at the variants in various mss. (via facsimilies
              and photocopies from microfilms) to verify the citations in the
              critical editions. In this last 1/3, students use both GNT and N-A,
              Metzger's textual commentary, and other commentaries on the specific
              passages that deal with the textual variant under consideration.
              Readings in works like Westcott and Hort and other seminal works as
              well as other current works are encouraged through reports, extra
              credit projects, work on the specific variants, etc. These seminal
              works are then covered in further courses in the area.

              An advanced M.Div. level course builds on this one with more emphasis
              on paleographical features, collating, and methods of analysis (with
              more readings in the seminal works included at this level). A course
              on the history of the Bible with major emphasis on canon development is
              also offered. From that point, we begin Ph.D. level seminars.

              paz,

              Bill Warren
              Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
              Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
              New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
              On Apr 3, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:

              >
              >
              > I would have to respectfully disagree. All of the
              > founding fathers of textual criticism (of whom I have
              > nothing but respect) were unaware of the papyri finds
              > at Oxyrhynchus that have completely revolutionized
              > textual criticism. A beginner will have difficulty
              > (both practically and monetarily) getting a hold of
              > any of the works recommended (with the exception of
              > Burgon and Scrivener), As a beginner, pre-digested
              > pablum is sometimes a desirable thing.
              >
              > Kevin
              >
              >
              > --- bucksburg <elwabook@...> wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Si wrote:
              >> <<I'm brand-new to this group. I've been studying NT
              >> Greek for nearly
              >> two years and am really interested in the little I
              >> have learned about
              >> Textual Criticism in that time.
              >>
              >> I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to
              >> develop my
              >> understanding and knowledge of the subject?>>
              >>
              >> Kevin wrote:
              >> <I would recommend reading the following books to
              >> give
              >> you a general idea of the theory and practice of
              >> textual criticism:
              >> Black, 1994
              >> Greenlee, 1995, 1985.
              >> Elliot, 1995.
              >> Vaganay, 1991.
              >> Aland, 1989.
              >> Comfort, 1992 1990.
              >> Black, 2002.
              >> Finegan, 1974
              >> Metzger, 1981.>
              >>
              >> Si, I wouldn't recommend you read any of these books
              >> quite yet. Note
              >> that they were mostly written in the 1980's and
              >> 1990's. Now, textual
              >> criticism has been around for centuries, and just
              >> about everything
              >> anyone needs to know about the CONTROVERSY and
              >> METHODS of tc was
              >> already in print 100 years ago. So books written in
              >> the 1980's
              >> basically only re-hashed what was written in the
              >> 50's (of course
              >> tying in any new textual discoveries, of which there
              >> were very few
              >> during that time), which in turn only re-hashed what
              >> was written in
              >> the 1920's, which in turn re-hashed what was written
              >> in the late
              >> 1800's, with the addition of quite a few textual
              >> discoveries which
              >> had gone a long way toward discrediting much of what
              >> was written so
              >> authoritatively in the late 1800's.
              >>
              >> Just to warn you, all of the above books will
              >> eventually be
              >> obsolete, replaced by the corrected and updated
              >> editions which will
              >> be coming off the presses in the next 20 years, by
              >> which time the
              >> entire NT MSS corpus will probably be available
              >> online and the text
              >> of the NT will finally have been collated against
              >> every extant
              >> manuscript.
              >>
              >> I suggest that you restrict yourself for now to
              >> reading the founding
              >> fathers of textual criticism: Greisbach, Tregelles,
              >> Hort, Burgon,
              >> and Scrivener. Once you find yourself agreeing with
              >> any of their
              >> approaches to textual criticism (and they differ
              >> widely), THEN read
              >> the modern experts to see why they consider the
              >> approaches of the
              >> above giants to be obsolete and outdated (and they,
              >> too, differ
              >> widely).
              >>
              >> It will take a lot of work to get your hands on the
              >> books I
              >> recommend. Some of what Burgon wrote is back in
              >> print now, but most
              >> of his NT textual commentary is still in ms form at
              >> some museum in
              >> Britain (something like 30,000 pages as I recall).
              >> But if you want
              >> to avoid pre-digested pablum in coming to your own
              >> conclusions on
              >> this very important but highly controversial
              >> subject, you are not
              >> going to be able to avoid a lot of work.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >> textualcriticism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              > Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
              > Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and Greek
              > Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
              > Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
              > 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
              > Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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