Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [textualcriticism] A Beginner

Expand Messages
  • Jim West
    ... If you can get hold of a manuscript- like Sinaiticus (which believe it or not is available) or one of the papyri, then the best thing to do, after you
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1 12:43 PM
      spatter5on wrote:

      >I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to develope my
      >understanding and knowledge of the subject? I've read a little bit
      >from the internet and Aland's book "Text of the NT".
      >
      >

      If you can get hold of a manuscript- like Sinaiticus (which believe it
      or not is available) or one of the papyri, then the best thing to do,
      after you understand quite well the principles of TC, do your own
      collation. Take your Greek New Testament, set it beside Sinaiticus (or
      whatever) and compare them line by line. mark the differences and then
      apply all the tools you have at hand to explain or clarify the differences.

      >Is it just a case of studying up on some of the more important
      >documents? Or spending more time in the apparatus of NA? I'm thinking
      >of buying Metzger's Textual Commentary...so I can understand more
      >about variation and why certain ones are preferred...is that a wise move?
      >
      >

      Yes- it's an excellent help- for understanding why the committee of NA
      has chosen as it has. But it is not a substitute for doing your own
      work or your own thinking.

      Best

      jim

      --
      Jim West

      Biblical Studies Resources - http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
      Biblical Theology Weblog - http://biblical-studies.blogspot.com
    • Kevin W. Woodruff
      Si: I would recommend reading the following books to give you a general idea of the theory and practice of textual criticism: Black, David Alan, New Testament
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1 1:51 PM
        Si:

        I would recommend reading the following books to give
        you a general idea of the theory and practice of
        textual criticism:

        Black, David Alan, New Testament Textual criticism: A
        Concise Guide. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1994

        Greenlee, J. Harold Introduction to New Testament
        Textual Criticism. Rev. ed. Peabody, Mass:
        Hendrickson, 1995.

        Greenlee, J. Harold Scribes, Scrolls & Scripture.
        Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1985.

        Elliot, Keith, and Ian Moir. Manuscripts and the Text
        of the New Testament. Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1995.

        Vaganay, Leon and Christian-Bernard Amphoux. An
        Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism.
        Cambridge University Press, 1991.

        Aland, Kurt, and Barbara Aland. The Text of the New
        Testament. Rev. ed. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1989.

        Comfort, Philip Wesley. The Quest for the Original
        Text for the New Testament Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992.

        Comfort Philip Wesley. Early Manuscripts & Modern
        Translations of the New Testament. Grand Rapids:
        Baker, 1990.

        Black, David Alan, ed. Rethinking New Testament
        Textual Criticism. Grand Rapids Baker, 2002.

        Finegan, Jack. Encountering New Testament Manuscripts.
        Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974

        Metzger, Bruce M. Manuscripts of the Greek Bible: An
        Introduction to Paleography. Oxford University Press,
        1981.

        Kevin



        --- spatter5on <spatter5on@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I'm brand-new to this group. I've been studying NT
        > Greek for nearly
        > two years and am really interested in the little I
        > have learned about
        > Textual Criticism in that time.
        >
        > I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to
        > develope my
        > understanding and knowledge of the subject? I've
        > read a little bit
        > from the internet and Aland's book "Text of the NT".
        >
        > Is it just a case of studying up on some of the more
        > important
        > documents? Or spending more time in the apparatus of
        > NA? I'm thinking
        > of buying Metzger's Textual Commentary...so I can
        > understand more
        > about variation and why certain ones are
        > preferred...is that a wise move?
        >
        > Thanks (in advance) for your help.
        >
        > Si~
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > --------------------~-->
        > Would you Help a Child in need?
        > It is easier than you think.
        > Click Here to meet a Child you can help.
        >
        http://us.click.yahoo.com/0Z9NuA/I_qJAA/i1hLAA/GuTslB/TM
        >
        --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        > textualcriticism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
        Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and Greek
        Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
        Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
        423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
        Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
      • bucksburg
        Si wrote:
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 2 6:26 AM
          Si wrote:
          <<I'm brand-new to this group. I've been studying NT Greek for nearly
          two years and am really interested in the little I have learned about
          Textual Criticism in that time.

          I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to develop my
          understanding and knowledge of the subject?>>

          Kevin wrote:
          <I would recommend reading the following books to give
          you a general idea of the theory and practice of
          textual criticism:
          Black, 1994
          Greenlee, 1995, 1985.
          Elliot, 1995.
          Vaganay, 1991.
          Aland, 1989.
          Comfort, 1992 1990.
          Black, 2002.
          Finegan, 1974
          Metzger, 1981.>

          Si, I wouldn't recommend you read any of these books quite yet. Note
          that they were mostly written in the 1980's and 1990's. Now, textual
          criticism has been around for centuries, and just about everything
          anyone needs to know about the CONTROVERSY and METHODS of tc was
          already in print 100 years ago. So books written in the 1980's
          basically only re-hashed what was written in the 50's (of course
          tying in any new textual discoveries, of which there were very few
          during that time), which in turn only re-hashed what was written in
          the 1920's, which in turn re-hashed what was written in the late
          1800's, with the addition of quite a few textual discoveries which
          had gone a long way toward discrediting much of what was written so
          authoritatively in the late 1800's.

          Just to warn you, all of the above books will eventually be
          obsolete, replaced by the corrected and updated editions which will
          be coming off the presses in the next 20 years, by which time the
          entire NT MSS corpus will probably be available online and the text
          of the NT will finally have been collated against every extant
          manuscript.

          I suggest that you restrict yourself for now to reading the founding
          fathers of textual criticism: Greisbach, Tregelles, Hort, Burgon,
          and Scrivener. Once you find yourself agreeing with any of their
          approaches to textual criticism (and they differ widely), THEN read
          the modern experts to see why they consider the approaches of the
          above giants to be obsolete and outdated (and they, too, differ
          widely).

          It will take a lot of work to get your hands on the books I
          recommend. Some of what Burgon wrote is back in print now, but most
          of his NT textual commentary is still in ms form at some museum in
          Britain (something like 30,000 pages as I recall). But if you want
          to avoid pre-digested pablum in coming to your own conclusions on
          this very important but highly controversial subject, you are not
          going to be able to avoid a lot of work.
        • bucksburg
          I m sorry, I momentarily forgot to include Tischendorf on that list of TC founding fathers. Actually, though, I think you can restrict yourself to the founding
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2 6:36 AM
            I'm sorry, I momentarily forgot to include Tischendorf on that list of
            TC founding fathers. Actually, though, I think you can restrict
            yourself to the founding fathers whose works were published in English
            (Tregelles, Hort, Burgon, and Scrivener) and not be out a whole lot.
            Otherwise, you are going to have to do a lot of reading in German and
            Latin.
            Daniel Buck
          • Kevin W. Woodruff
            I would have to respectfully disagree. All of the founding fathers of textual criticism (of whom I have nothing but respect) were unaware of the papyri finds
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 3 10:40 AM
              I would have to respectfully disagree. All of the
              founding fathers of textual criticism (of whom I have
              nothing but respect) were unaware of the papyri finds
              at Oxyrhynchus that have completely revolutionized
              textual criticism. A beginner will have difficulty
              (both practically and monetarily) getting a hold of
              any of the works recommended (with the exception of
              Burgon and Scrivener), As a beginner, pre-digested
              pablum is sometimes a desirable thing.

              Kevin


              --- bucksburg <elwabook@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Si wrote:
              > <<I'm brand-new to this group. I've been studying NT
              > Greek for nearly
              > two years and am really interested in the little I
              > have learned about
              > Textual Criticism in that time.
              >
              > I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to
              > develop my
              > understanding and knowledge of the subject?>>
              >
              > Kevin wrote:
              > <I would recommend reading the following books to
              > give
              > you a general idea of the theory and practice of
              > textual criticism:
              > Black, 1994
              > Greenlee, 1995, 1985.
              > Elliot, 1995.
              > Vaganay, 1991.
              > Aland, 1989.
              > Comfort, 1992 1990.
              > Black, 2002.
              > Finegan, 1974
              > Metzger, 1981.>
              >
              > Si, I wouldn't recommend you read any of these books
              > quite yet. Note
              > that they were mostly written in the 1980's and
              > 1990's. Now, textual
              > criticism has been around for centuries, and just
              > about everything
              > anyone needs to know about the CONTROVERSY and
              > METHODS of tc was
              > already in print 100 years ago. So books written in
              > the 1980's
              > basically only re-hashed what was written in the
              > 50's (of course
              > tying in any new textual discoveries, of which there
              > were very few
              > during that time), which in turn only re-hashed what
              > was written in
              > the 1920's, which in turn re-hashed what was written
              > in the late
              > 1800's, with the addition of quite a few textual
              > discoveries which
              > had gone a long way toward discrediting much of what
              > was written so
              > authoritatively in the late 1800's.
              >
              > Just to warn you, all of the above books will
              > eventually be
              > obsolete, replaced by the corrected and updated
              > editions which will
              > be coming off the presses in the next 20 years, by
              > which time the
              > entire NT MSS corpus will probably be available
              > online and the text
              > of the NT will finally have been collated against
              > every extant
              > manuscript.
              >
              > I suggest that you restrict yourself for now to
              > reading the founding
              > fathers of textual criticism: Greisbach, Tregelles,
              > Hort, Burgon,
              > and Scrivener. Once you find yourself agreeing with
              > any of their
              > approaches to textual criticism (and they differ
              > widely), THEN read
              > the modern experts to see why they consider the
              > approaches of the
              > above giants to be obsolete and outdated (and they,
              > too, differ
              > widely).
              >
              > It will take a lot of work to get your hands on the
              > books I
              > recommend. Some of what Burgon wrote is back in
              > print now, but most
              > of his NT textual commentary is still in ms form at
              > some museum in
              > Britain (something like 30,000 pages as I recall).
              > But if you want
              > to avoid pre-digested pablum in coming to your own
              > conclusions on
              > this very important but highly controversial
              > subject, you are not
              > going to be able to avoid a lot of work.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > --------------------~-->
              > Would you Help a Child in need?
              > It is easier than you think.
              > Click Here to meet a Child you can help.
              >
              http://us.click.yahoo.com/0Z9NuA/I_qJAA/i1hLAA/GuTslB/TM
              >
              --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              > textualcriticism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
              Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and Greek
              Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
              Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
              423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
              Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
            • spatter5on
              ... A few months ago I found photos/scans of (i think) the whole of sinaitucus and other ancient manuscripts on the internet somewhere...but I ve lost the
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 4 1:11 AM
                --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Jim West <jwest@h...> wrote:

                > If you can get hold of a manuscript- like Sinaiticus

                A few months ago I found photos/scans of (i think) the whole of
                sinaitucus and other ancient manuscripts on the internet
                somewhere...but I've lost the link. Does anyone know the site. I
                though there was a link to it from Rod Deckers site, but I can't find
                it now...?

                PS - Thanks Jim and everyone else for your suggestions and
                recommendations...it'll look into them...


                Si~
              • Wieland Willker
                Some (pseudo-)facsimiles can be found at: http://www.bibles.org.uk/pdf/bibles/00README.shtml The following two online-works are a MUST-READ: Westcott-Hort
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 4 3:13 AM
                  Some (pseudo-)facsimiles can be found at:
                  http://www.bibles.org.uk/pdf/bibles/00README.shtml

                  The following two online-works are a MUST-READ:
                  Westcott-Hort intro:
                  http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/Ebind/docs/TC/WH1881/
                  (password: "any" - "any")

                  THE FOUR GOSPELS by B.H. Streeter
                  http://www.katapi.org.uk/4Gospels/Contents.htm


                  you should perhaps also read Robert Waltz' Encyclopedia in toto:
                  http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/

                  some more links:
                  http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/bibel.html#text

                  Best wishes
                  Wieland
                  <><
                  ------------------------------------------------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  mailto:willker@...-bremen.de
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
                  Textcritical commentary:
                  http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
                • William Warren
                  I would agree with Kevin on the starting point being well served through some of the more recent introductory works in the field. I ve found that a general
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 4 5:23 AM
                    I would agree with Kevin on the starting point being well served
                    through some of the more recent introductory works in the field. I've
                    found that a general information base that is as up-to-date as possible
                    provides a basic knowledge or overview of the field that is needed by
                    most for digesting the earlier seminal works. On the other hand, I
                    have a number of students in my intro to NT TC courses that are not
                    going to take more than an intro. course to TC, so I need to provide as
                    good an overview of the field as possible in just one semester. If
                    students on the front end already know that they want to go further in
                    TC than the intro course, that would perhaps warrant a different
                    approach. I would also suggest that some acquaintance with the mss. is
                    indispensable, with collating (as several have suggested) and
                    observation of the marginalia, etc. essential.

                    May I also posit a further question in this discussion? What are those
                    who teach TC actually doing in their intro courses? I think a
                    description of what the courses cover would be beneficial to all. For
                    example, in my M.Div. intro. course, I use Metzger, Aland and Aland,
                    and Ehrman and Holmes as the main textbooks for the history and theory
                    side. I've had students make a page of papyrus more often than not and
                    write a favorite verse from a ms. or the GNT on it so they could get a
                    sense of both the materials and processes for papyrus. I use about 2/3
                    of the course for covering the history of the text and method, with
                    collating being done in conjunction with this part so that the nature
                    of the variants and differences between mss. and text-types can be
                    understood, then the last 1/3 of the course covers specific variants in
                    the NT, and looking at the variants in various mss. (via facsimilies
                    and photocopies from microfilms) to verify the citations in the
                    critical editions. In this last 1/3, students use both GNT and N-A,
                    Metzger's textual commentary, and other commentaries on the specific
                    passages that deal with the textual variant under consideration.
                    Readings in works like Westcott and Hort and other seminal works as
                    well as other current works are encouraged through reports, extra
                    credit projects, work on the specific variants, etc. These seminal
                    works are then covered in further courses in the area.

                    An advanced M.Div. level course builds on this one with more emphasis
                    on paleographical features, collating, and methods of analysis (with
                    more readings in the seminal works included at this level). A course
                    on the history of the Bible with major emphasis on canon development is
                    also offered. From that point, we begin Ph.D. level seminars.

                    paz,

                    Bill Warren
                    Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
                    Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
                    New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
                    On Apr 3, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Kevin W. Woodruff wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > I would have to respectfully disagree. All of the
                    > founding fathers of textual criticism (of whom I have
                    > nothing but respect) were unaware of the papyri finds
                    > at Oxyrhynchus that have completely revolutionized
                    > textual criticism. A beginner will have difficulty
                    > (both practically and monetarily) getting a hold of
                    > any of the works recommended (with the exception of
                    > Burgon and Scrivener), As a beginner, pre-digested
                    > pablum is sometimes a desirable thing.
                    >
                    > Kevin
                    >
                    >
                    > --- bucksburg <elwabook@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Si wrote:
                    >> <<I'm brand-new to this group. I've been studying NT
                    >> Greek for nearly
                    >> two years and am really interested in the little I
                    >> have learned about
                    >> Textual Criticism in that time.
                    >>
                    >> I'm wondering what's the best next step to take to
                    >> develop my
                    >> understanding and knowledge of the subject?>>
                    >>
                    >> Kevin wrote:
                    >> <I would recommend reading the following books to
                    >> give
                    >> you a general idea of the theory and practice of
                    >> textual criticism:
                    >> Black, 1994
                    >> Greenlee, 1995, 1985.
                    >> Elliot, 1995.
                    >> Vaganay, 1991.
                    >> Aland, 1989.
                    >> Comfort, 1992 1990.
                    >> Black, 2002.
                    >> Finegan, 1974
                    >> Metzger, 1981.>
                    >>
                    >> Si, I wouldn't recommend you read any of these books
                    >> quite yet. Note
                    >> that they were mostly written in the 1980's and
                    >> 1990's. Now, textual
                    >> criticism has been around for centuries, and just
                    >> about everything
                    >> anyone needs to know about the CONTROVERSY and
                    >> METHODS of tc was
                    >> already in print 100 years ago. So books written in
                    >> the 1980's
                    >> basically only re-hashed what was written in the
                    >> 50's (of course
                    >> tying in any new textual discoveries, of which there
                    >> were very few
                    >> during that time), which in turn only re-hashed what
                    >> was written in
                    >> the 1920's, which in turn re-hashed what was written
                    >> in the late
                    >> 1800's, with the addition of quite a few textual
                    >> discoveries which
                    >> had gone a long way toward discrediting much of what
                    >> was written so
                    >> authoritatively in the late 1800's.
                    >>
                    >> Just to warn you, all of the above books will
                    >> eventually be
                    >> obsolete, replaced by the corrected and updated
                    >> editions which will
                    >> be coming off the presses in the next 20 years, by
                    >> which time the
                    >> entire NT MSS corpus will probably be available
                    >> online and the text
                    >> of the NT will finally have been collated against
                    >> every extant
                    >> manuscript.
                    >>
                    >> I suggest that you restrict yourself for now to
                    >> reading the founding
                    >> fathers of textual criticism: Greisbach, Tregelles,
                    >> Hort, Burgon,
                    >> and Scrivener. Once you find yourself agreeing with
                    >> any of their
                    >> approaches to textual criticism (and they differ
                    >> widely), THEN read
                    >> the modern experts to see why they consider the
                    >> approaches of the
                    >> above giants to be obsolete and outdated (and they,
                    >> too, differ
                    >> widely).
                    >>
                    >> It will take a lot of work to get your hands on the
                    >> books I
                    >> recommend. Some of what Burgon wrote is back in
                    >> print now, but most
                    >> of his NT textual commentary is still in ms form at
                    >> some museum in
                    >> Britain (something like 30,000 pages as I recall).
                    >> But if you want
                    >> to avoid pre-digested pablum in coming to your own
                    >> conclusions on
                    >> this very important but highly controversial
                    >> subject, you are not
                    >> going to be able to avoid a lot of work.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> textualcriticism-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M.Div., M.S.I.S.
                    > Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of Bible and Greek
                    > Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
                    > Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
                    > 423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
                    > Cierpke@... http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.