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Codex Vaticanus and the Rheims New Testament

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  • james_snapp_jr
    You may have heard that this year is the 400th birthday of the KJV. Some time ago, I rephrased the To the Reader Preface of the KJV into Merkin (American
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 6, 2011
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      You may have heard that this year is the 400th birthday of the KJV. Some time ago, I rephrased the "To the Reader" Preface of the KJV into Merkin (American English) so as to give readers an easier-to-understand look at it. More recently I thought it might be a good idea to do the same thing for the preface of the 1582 Rheims New Testament.

      This little project sped along after I found that Kevin Edgecomb, at the Bombaxo site, already has formally rendered the Rheims NT Preface into English. In less than a week, using Edgecomb's text, and comparing it to a copy of the Rheims NT Preface downloaded from Google Books, the entire Preface was rendered into Merkin.

      It looks like Codex Vaticanus, or some list of readings from Codex Vaticanus, was consulted, at least in a cursory or indirect way, as the Rheims NT was prepared. For in the Preface I found this statement, which the author wrote in the course of listing the reasons for preferring the Vulgate as a base-text instead of the Greek text:

      "If all such conjectures and all the Greek Fathers are no help to us, yet the Latin Fathers with great consent will easily vindicate the old Vulgate translation, which for the most part they follow and expound; for instance they support the reading at Jn. 7:39, Nondum erat spiritus datus (See the Annotations of the Louvain New Testament, and the Annotations on the Bible by Lucas Brugensis). So read St. Augustine and Leo; their authority would be sufficient, but indeed Didymus, too, a Greek Doctor, also has this reading, and so does a Greek copy in the Vatican, and so does the Syriac New Testament. Likewise, in Jn. 21:22, Sic enim volo manere is read by St. Ambrose, and by Augustine, and by Venerable Bede."

      -- "so does a Greek copy in the Vatican" -- what copy can this be, that has the reading "The Spirit was not yet given," if not Vaticanus?

      Yours in Christ,

      James Snapp, Jr.
    • TeunisV
      From message 5559 (and more) of this list: Franciscus Lucas of Brugge was involved in textual criticism on the Greek NT Greek and the Vulgate. In his
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 7, 2011
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        From message 5559 (and more) of this list:

        Franciscus Lucas of Brugge was involved in textual criticism on the >>>>
        Greek NT Greek and the Vulgate. In his honour must be said that he was already able to consider both texts as seperate entities, both valuable.In a recent post on this forum Lucas is nominated for blotting the codex Vaticanus with "textcritical" notes, distigmai/umlauts. That is impossible. The codex was in Lucas' lifetime in Rome and Lucas was never there. But there is another link: Lucas used collationes of the gospel text of the Vaticanus for his Annotationes of 1580. The name of Werner of Nimwegen is connected to this collations. (See, Gregory, Prol. Tisch. 8 ad codex B.)
        So Lucas is a source for the Reims NT.
        <<<<

        The Greek variant in John 21:22 is also memorized by Lucas in the Annotations of 1580: a reference to D, the codex Bezae. Compare Metzger's TC ad loc.

        Teunis van Lopik

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "james_snapp_jr" <voxverax@...> wrote:
        >
        > You may have heard that this year is the 400th birthday of the KJV. Some time ago, I rephrased the "To the Reader" Preface of the KJV into Merkin (American English) so as to give readers an easier-to-understand look at it. More recently I thought it might be a good idea to do the same thing for the preface of the 1582 Rheims New Testament.
        >
        > This little project sped along after I found that Kevin Edgecomb, at the Bombaxo site, already has formally rendered the Rheims NT Preface into English. In less than a week, using Edgecomb's text, and comparing it to a copy of the Rheims NT Preface downloaded from Google Books, the entire Preface was rendered into Merkin.
        >
        > It looks like Codex Vaticanus, or some list of readings from Codex Vaticanus, was consulted, at least in a cursory or indirect way, as the Rheims NT was prepared. For in the Preface I found this statement, which the author wrote in the course of listing the reasons for preferring the Vulgate as a base-text instead of the Greek text:
        >
        > "If all such conjectures and all the Greek Fathers are no help to us, yet the Latin Fathers with great consent will easily vindicate the old Vulgate translation, which for the most part they follow and expound; for instance they support the reading at Jn. 7:39, Nondum erat spiritus datus (See the Annotations of the Louvain New Testament, and the Annotations on the Bible by Lucas Brugensis). So read St. Augustine and Leo; their authority would be sufficient, but indeed Didymus, too, a Greek Doctor, also has this reading, and so does a Greek copy in the Vatican, and so does the Syriac New Testament. Likewise, in Jn. 21:22, Sic enim volo manere is read by St. Ambrose, and by Augustine, and by Venerable Bede."
        >
        > -- "so does a Greek copy in the Vatican" -- what copy can this be, that has the reading "The Spirit was not yet given," if not Vaticanus?
        >
        > Yours in Christ,
        >
        > James Snapp, Jr.
        >
      • james_snapp_jr
        Teunis, Just double-checking for double-checking s sake: the line of descent appears to go like this: (1) Werner of Nimwegen made a collation of the NT
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 8, 2011
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          Teunis,

          Just double-checking for double-checking's sake: the line of descent appears to go like this:

          (1) Werner of Nimwegen made a collation of the NT portion of Codex Vaticanus, and this included information about the reading of B at John 7:39.
          (2) Lucas Brugensis consulted the collation that Werner of Nimwegen had made and mentioned some of its more interesting points in his 1580 Annotations.
          (3) The producers of the Rheims NT consulted Lucas Brugensis' Annotations, and the Rheims Preface-writer recollected Lucas Brugensis' note about the reading of Vaticanus at John 7:39.

          Is that correct?

          And there are umlauts alongside Jn. 7:39 in B. Hmm.

          Yours in Christ,

          James Snapp, Jr.
        • Wieland Willker
          ... I am wondering when Peter will come out of the closet. If I remember correctly he said that he has solved the umlauts riddle. Not? Best wishes Wieland
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 8, 2011
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            > And there are umlauts alongside Jn. 7:39 in B. Hmm.

            I am wondering when Peter will come out of the closet. If I
            remember correctly he said that he has solved the umlauts
            riddle. Not?


            Best wishes
            Wieland
            <><
            --------------------------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie
            Textcritical commentary:
            http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/
          • TeunisV
            That is correct. See p, 21 of Lucas, Notat., 1580:
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 9, 2011
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              That is correct. See p, 21 of Lucas, Notat., 1580:
              http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0002/bsb00021531/images/index.html?id=00021531&fip=eayayztsewqeayaxssdasyztsqrseayaxs&no=25&seite=25
              Have mind: as far as I know the Greek NT with Werner's (ms) collations from the Vaticanus disappeared. Lucas mentioned ca 20 instances.

              Teunis van Lopik

              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "james_snapp_jr" <voxverax@...> wrote:
              >
              > Teunis,
              >
              > Just double-checking for double-checking's sake: the line of descent appears to go like this:
              >
              > (1) Werner of Nimwegen made a collation of the NT portion of Codex Vaticanus, and this included information about the reading of B at John 7:39.
              > (2) Lucas Brugensis consulted the collation that Werner of Nimwegen had made and mentioned some of its more interesting points in his 1580 Annotations.
              > (3) The producers of the Rheims NT consulted Lucas Brugensis' Annotations, and the Rheims Preface-writer recollected Lucas Brugensis' note about the reading of Vaticanus at John 7:39.
              >
              > Is that correct?
              >
              > And there are umlauts alongside Jn. 7:39 in B. Hmm.
              >
              > Yours in Christ,
              >
              > James Snapp, Jr.
              >
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