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Re: [textualcriticism] Error in UBS4 apparatus for Mark 6:33

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  • David Robert Palmer
    I don’t personally have access to the manuscript 157, or images of it, but for what it’s worth, this is what Swanson has: ἐκεῖ καὶ
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 1 8:19 PM
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      I don’t personally have access to the manuscript 157, or images of it, but for what it’s worth, this is what Swanson has:
       
      ἐκεῖ καὶ προῆλθον αὐτούς καὶ συνῆλθον πρὸς αὐτόν
       
      David Robert Palmer
       
    • james_snapp_jr
      Richard, That s a mistake in UBS-4, all right. I don t know which entry is correct but I suspect that it s the second one, since if Hort had thought that 157
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 2 10:19 AM
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        Richard,

        That's a mistake in UBS-4, all right. I don't know which entry is correct but I suspect that it's the second one, since if Hort had thought that 157 agreed with Aleph and B here, he almost certainly would have listed it as doing so in Introduction (par. 134) where he discusses the passage.

        Also, Swanson (p. 93) does not list 157 as agreeing with Aleph and B, and does not list it separately, which should mean that it agrees with the majority-text reading there.

        Yours in Christ,

        James Snapp, Jr.
      • Richard Mallett
        Reply to : James Snapp ... and ... Many thanks for those two replies. I will inform the INTF that it should probably be cited as a witness for the longer
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 3 5:18 PM
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          Reply to : James Snapp
          > Richard,
          >
          > Disregard what I said about Swanson; he does list it explicitly as agreeing with the majority-text reading (the citation is crammed together a bit so I missed it at first. Byz is supported, in Swanson, by K M U Pi 118 2 157 and 1071 and the TR). So I would bet a 5th Avenue candy bar that 157 does indeed have the Byz reading here in Mk 6:33.
          >
          > Yours in Christ,
          >
          > James Snapp, Jr.
          >
          >
          and
          > Richard,
          > That's a mistake in UBS-4, all right. I don't know which entry is correct but I suspect that it's the second one, since if Hort had thought that 157 agreed with Aleph and B here, he almost certainly would have listed it as doing so in Introduction (par. 134) where he discusses the passage.
          >
          > Also, Swanson (p. 93) does not list 157 as agreeing with Aleph and B, and does not list it separately, which should mean that it agrees with the majority-text reading there.
          >
          > Yours in Christ,
          >
          > James Snapp, Jr.
          >
          >
          Many thanks for those two replies. I will inform the INTF that it
          should probably be cited as a witness for the longer reading.

          --
          --
          Richard Mallett
          Eaton Bray, Dunstable
          South Beds. UK
        • schmuel
          Hi Folks, ... Richard Mallett Many thanks for those two replies. I will inform the INTF that it should probably be cited as a witness for the longer reading.
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 4 2:36 AM
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            Hi Folks,

            > Subject changed from:
            >  Error in UBS4 apparatus for Mark 6:33

            Richard Mallett
            Many thanks for those two replies.  I will inform the INTF that it
            should probably be cited as a witness for the longer reading.

            INTF == Neutestamentliche Textforschung (INTF) in Münster

            Steven Avery
            Richard, are you a good person to contact on apparatus problems ?
            There are a number that I have run into on a variety of verse quite definite, some for consideration.

            Is there a recommended mechanism and format ?
            Is there any feedback and interaction (beyond posting here) ?

            Would you like proposed corrections to be sent privately, or hashed out on a textual criticism forum first ?

            In some cases the links to the earlier discussions could be sent with the information.

            Shalom,
            Steven Avery
            Queens, NY
          • Richard Mallett
            Reply to : Steven Avery ... My primary activity is in compiling (from the UBS4 GNT) a data matrix of MSS vs. readings for each verse, which I then send to Tim
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 5 9:48 AM
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              Reply to : Steven Avery
              > Hi Folks,
              >
              >> > Subject changed from:
              >> > Error in UBS4 apparatus for Mark 6:33
              > Richard Mallett
              > Many thanks for those two replies. I will inform the INTF that
              > it
              > should probably be cited as a witness for the longer reading.
              > INTF == Neutestamentliche Textforschung (INTF) in Münster
              >
              > Steven Avery
              > Richard, are you a good person to contact on apparatus problems ?
              > There are a number that I have run into on a variety of verse
              > quite definite, some for consideration.
              >
              > Is there a recommended mechanism and format ?
              > Is there any feedback and interaction (beyond posting here) ?
              >
              > Would you like proposed corrections to be sent privately, or
              > hashed out on a textual criticism forum first ?
              >
              > In some cases the links to the earlier discussions could be sent
              > with the information.
              >
              > Shalom,
              > Steven Avery
              > Queens, NY
              >

              My primary activity is in compiling (from the UBS4 GNT) a data matrix of
              MSS vs. readings for each verse, which I then send to Tim Finney for
              inclusion in his statistical cluster analysis at www.tfinney.net (see,
              in particular, http://www.tfinney.net/Mapping/index.html and
              http://www.tfinney.net/Views/index.html )

              In the course of this work, I occasionally encounter errors of this
              nature, where the same MS is cited as support for two different readings
              of the same verse. After checking with Tim Finney and here, then I send
              my findings to the INTF. I will leave it to you to decide if your
              researches dovetail with this. You may contact me privately, or through
              the group. Please let me (or the group) know what you have found, in
              any case, as I'm sure it will be of interest.

              --
              --
              Richard Mallett
              Eaton Bray, Dunstable
              South Beds. UK
            • David C Hindley
              Richard, Before you do that, take a look at the 6 variants in the order presented in NA27 (I ve added minuscule 157 where you indicate the UBS4 apparatus cites
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 5 10:36 AM
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                Richard,

                Before you do that, take a look at the 6 variants in the order presented in NA27
                (I've added minuscule 157 where you indicate the UBS4 apparatus cites it):

                1) *kai prohlqon autous* [01 (Sinaiticus IV), 03 (Vaticanus IV), minuscule 157
                (XII)]
                2) kai proshlqon autois [037 (IX), 038 (IX)]
                3) kai sunhlqon autou [05 (Bezae VI)]
                4) kai hlqon autou [(family1 XII-XIV), minuscule 565 (IX)]
                5) *kai prohlqon autous* >>kai sunhlqon pros auton<< [p84vid (VI), 02
                (Alexandrinus V), family13 (XI-XIII), minuscule 157 (XII)]
                6) (omit) [032 (Freerer V)]

                If you look close, minuscule 157 actually does support *both* of those readings
                you cited.

                The shorter reading of Mark 6:33-34 (without >>kai sunhlqon pros auton<< "and
                they came together to him") is cited as a likely case of haplography occasioned
                by the tendency of "early amateur copyists" to end lines on KAI (indicating
                beginning of a new clause). The "scare quotes" are there because this is part of
                the rhetoric of "Alexandrian only" proponent "Nazaroo", who cites this variant
                as an example of the arrogance of modern critics, followed "moronically" by
                "almost all modern versions [except the KJV]", who stubbornly just don't get the
                obvious truth. "Nothing is really lost by the adoption of either reading," he
                says, "except of course the reputation of the Alexandrian scribes, and the
                credibility of modern Bible editors."
                http://adultera.awardspace.com/SUPLEM/UBSgaffs.html#Mark01

                Sigh ...

                Respectfully,

                Dave Hindley
                Newton Falls, Ohio USA


                1a. Re: Error in UBS4 apparatus for Mark 6:33
                Posted by: "Richard Mallett" 100114.573@... richardmallett2001
                Date: Thu Feb 3, 2011 11:08 pm ((PST))

                Reply to : James Snapp
                > Richard,
                >
                > Disregard what I said about Swanson; he does list it explicitly as agreeing
                with the majority-text reading (the citation is crammed together a bit so I
                missed it at first. Byz is supported, in Swanson, by K M U Pi 118 2 157 and
                1071 and the TR). So I would bet a 5th Avenue candy bar that 157 does indeed
                have the Byz reading here in Mk 6:33.
                >
                > Yours in Christ,
                >
                > James Snapp, Jr.
                >
                >
                and
                > Richard,
                > That's a mistake in UBS-4, all right. I don't know which entry is correct but
                I suspect that it's the second one, since if Hort had thought that 157 agreed
                with Aleph and B here, he almost certainly would have listed it as doing so in
                Introduction (par. 134) where he discusses the passage.
                >
                > Also, Swanson (p. 93) does not list 157 as agreeing with Aleph and B, and does
                not list it separately, which should mean that it agrees with the majority-text
                reading there.
                >
                > Yours in Christ,
                >
                > James Snapp, Jr.
                >
                >

                Many thanks for those two replies. I will inform the INTF that it should
                probably be cited as a witness for the longer reading.

                --
                --
                Richard Mallett
                Eaton Bray, Dunstable
                South Beds. UK







                Messages in this topic (4)





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              • bucksburg
                ... 1) *kai prohlqon autous* [01, 03, 157] 2) kai proshlqon autois [037, 038] 3) kai sunhlqon autou [05] 4) kai hlqon autou [f1, 565 ] 5) *kai prohlqon autous*
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 5 1:22 PM
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                  --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "David C Hindley" wrote:

                  >>take a look at the 6 variants in the order presented in NA27:
                  1) *kai prohlqon autous* [01, 03, 157]
                  2) kai proshlqon autois [037, 038]
                  3) kai sunhlqon autou [05]
                  4) kai hlqon autou [f1, 565 ]
                  5) *kai prohlqon autous* >>kai sunhlqon pros auton<< [p84vid, 02, f13, 157]
                  6) (omit) [032]

                  If you look closely, minuscule 157 actually does support *both* of those readings you cited.

                  The shorter reading of Mark 6:33-34 (without "and they came together to him") is cited as a likely case of haplography occasioned by the tendency of "early amateur copyists" to end lines on KAI (indicating beginning of a new clause).<<

                  No, actually, the cited tendency is to *begin* lines on KAI. Thus the resultant homoioarcton.

                  <<The "scare quotes" are there because this is part of the rhetoric of "Alexandrian only" proponent "Nazaroo",>>

                  Nazaroo proposes no such thing as text based exclusively on Alexandrian manuscripts. The UBS comes a lot closer to fitting such a label, but labels are something this discussion could do without.

                  << who cites this variant as an example of the arrogance of modern critics, followed "moronically" by "almost all modern versions [except the KJV]",>>

                  The KJV is "modern" only in the sense that "modern English" dates back to its era. The KJV didn't follow the Alexandrian text, naturally, because it wasn't based on such.

                  << who stubbornly just don't get the obvious truth.>>

                  Other than 'obvious,' these are your own words.

                  <<"Nothing is really lost by the adoption of either reading," he says,>>

                  I can see his point. The missing phrase hardly comes through in translation when it is put back in, except in a fairly literal version.

                  << "except of course the reputation of the Alexandrian scribes, and the credibility of modern Bible editors.">>
                  > http://adultera.awardspace.com/SUPLEM/UBSgaffs.html#Mark01 <

                  Daniel Buck
                • Richard Mallett
                  Reply to : David Hindley ... Yes, it all depends on how finely one breaks down the component parts. I remember reading somewhere that, depending on how finely
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 7 2:32 AM
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                    Reply to : David Hindley
                    > Hi Richard,
                    >
                    > Ahh, the old Compuserve forum days (mid 1990's), when everyone
                    > identified themselves and carried on civil discussions. I learned quite
                    > a bit about astronomy from you as well.
                    >
                    > Yes, I saw your follow-up post to Steven Avery, and looked at Tim
                    > Finney's web pages, although I'm not yet sure what they signify.
                    >
                    > My concern here is that variant #5 below is a compound variant (I may
                    > have just invented that phrase). The phrase "kai sunhlqon pros auton" is
                    > added to another specific variant "kai prohlqon autous" (#1). The
                    > additive words are not paired with the other variants #2 "kai proshlqon
                    > autois", #3 "kai sunhlqon autou", #4 "kai hlqon autou", or #6 simply
                    > omit any of variants #1-#4. There is nothing to have prevented the
                    > additive phrase from appearing without any of the first 4 variants
                    > appearing at all, but it does not.
                    >
                    > So, my guess would be that minuscule 157 reads variant #5 below, and
                    > serves as a witness for both #1 and for the addition of the phrase "kai
                    > sunhlqon pros auton" after varient #1 and variant #1 alone.
                    >
                    > Respectfully,
                    >
                    > Dave Hindley
                    > Nerton Falls, Ohio USA
                    >
                    Yes, it all depends on how finely one breaks down the component parts.
                    I remember reading somewhere that, depending on how finely one breaks up
                    the component parts, some NA readings are not supported by any MS (of
                    course, the same would apply to the TR for example)

                    Sorry my Greek typing didn't come through (at least for me) - it does in
                    emails, but obviously not in Yahoo. II will have to transliterate in
                    English letters. Thanks also to the mods for correcting the subject
                    line for me :-)

                    --
                    --
                    Richard Mallett
                    Eaton Bray, Dunstable
                    South Beds. UK
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