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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: Russian order Gen Epis

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  • ron minton
    Thanks to all who replied. Where can I quickly find the order of NT books in Marcion Muratorian Canon Eusebius Athanasius Ron Minton ... Thanks to all who
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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      Thanks to all who replied.  Where can I quickly find the order of NT books in 
      Marcion  
      Muratorian Canon  
      Eusebius  
      Athanasius

      Ron Minton

      On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Alberto <vaqoli@...> wrote:

      Hello, Ron!

      The Russian Bible follows the order of the canonical books attributed to the Laodicean Council (AD 360-363). This order is partially evidenced within early papyri and manuscripts and occurs in the IV century Festal Letter of Athanasius (AD 367). The Bizantine text, also, follows that order.

      Just the Western Text (Vulgata Latina) follows the classical order that all of us know.

      I hope that i answer your question.

      Thanks!

      Alberto Olivares
      México city, D.F.


      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, ron minton <ronminton@...> wrote:
      >
      > I was asked why the Russian Bible has the General Epistles after Acts.  I understand that the Peshitta has James, 1 Peter, and 1 John immediately after Acts. However, I think the Russian Bible just follows the Western Text order. Anyone have information on this?

      > Grace be with you,
      > Ron Minton - Ukraine
      > USA cell = 240-432-8925
      > Skype = 240-949-2653
    • ron minton
      OK. If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this: Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation Western Text Muratorian Canon,
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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        OK.  If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this:

        Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation
        Western Text
        Muratorian Canon, Eusebius
        Latin Vulgate
        Erasmus (1466-1536)
        Robert Stephanus (1503-1559)
        Theodore Beza (1519-1605)
        Bonaventure Elzevir (1583-1652)
        Abraham Elzevir (1592-1652)
        ..............................
        Gospels, Paul, Acts, General Epistles, and Revelation
        Sinaiticus
        .............................
        Gospels, Acts, General Epistles, Paul, Revelation
        Byzantine Text
        Laodicean Council (360-363), Athanasius (367), 
        Vaticanus,  Alexandrinus, Ephraimi Rescriptus, some early papyri and other manuscripts,
        Lachmann (1793-1851), Tischendorf (1815-1874), Tregelles (1813-1875), Westcott (1825-1901) and Hort (1828-1892) 
        Russian Bible
        ...........................
        And Marcion has only Gospels and Paul.
        Any comments, corrections, and/or significant additions are welcome.
        Ron Minton



        On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, TeunisV <tvanlopik@...> wrote:

        For an excellent overview, see: http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
        Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
        Teunis van Lopik


      • Alberto
        Hello Ron! With Marcion (AD 100 - 165), there is a big problem, he only accept the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul, just 11 books at all. Because he
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 19, 2011
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          Hello Ron!

          With Marcion (AD 100 - 165), there is a big problem, he only accept the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul, just 11 books at all. Because he rejected every think that have part of the jews religion, for that he rejectec the O.T. (Tanaj). And in all the Epistles of Paul he cut all the quotatios of the O.T. (Tanaj).

          In other words, he made his own Bible according to his only purposes. He was the precursor of the maniqueism. He make 2 books: 1) "Antitesis" and 2) it was a recopilation of his own writings.

          Thanks!

          Alberto Olivares
          México city, D.F.

          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, ron minton <ronminton@...> wrote:
          >
          > OK. If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this:
          >
          > Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation
          > Western Text
          > Muratorian Canon, Eusebius
          > Latin Vulgate
          > Erasmus (1466-1536)
          > Robert Stephanus (1503-1559)
          > Theodore Beza (1519-1605)
          > Bonaventure Elzevir (1583-1652)
          > Abraham Elzevir (1592-1652)
          > ..............................
          > Gospels, Paul, Acts, General Epistles, and Revelation
          > Sinaiticus
          > .............................
          > Gospels, Acts, General Epistles, Paul, Revelation
          > Byzantine Text
          > Laodicean Council (360-363), Athanasius (367),
          > Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, Ephraimi Rescriptus, some early papyri and other
          > manuscripts,
          > Lachmann (1793-1851), Tischendorf (1815-1874), Tregelles (1813-1875),
          > Westcott (1825-1901) and Hort (1828-1892)
          > Russian Bible
          > ...........................
          > And Marcion has only Gospels and Paul.
          > Any comments, corrections, and/or significant additions are welcome.
          > Ron Minton
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, TeunisV <tvanlopik@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > For an excellent overview, see:
          > > http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
          > > Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
          > > Teunis van Lopik
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Robert Relyea
          ... So the early collections did not typically contain the whole New Testament. In fact the oldest collections we have of the whole new testament where
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 19, 2011
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            On 01/18/2011 02:56 PM, ron minton wrote: OK.  If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this:

            So the early collections did not typically contain the whole New Testament. In fact the oldest collections we have of the whole new testament where actually full bibles (the great uncials).

            Before and after that, the New Testament circulated in the following collections:

            Gospels
            Acts+General Epistles
            Paul
            Revelation

            Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation
            Western Text
            I'm not sure what you mean by 'western text'. Usually that term refers to the following Greek codices plus the old Latin and maybe the old Syriac texts:
                Codex Bezea (Dea) - Gospels - General Epistles (only the last of III John extant in Latin) - Acts
                Codex Claramontanus (Dp) - Paul
                Codex Augiensis (Fp) - Paul
                Codex Boernerianus (Gp) -Paul (Note that Codex Sangellenses is clearly meant to be the Gospel version pair to this codex, but the text is not Western).
                [Codex Sangermanensis (Dabs1) and Codex Waldeccensis (Dabs2) are both copies of Dp] -Paul

            So these Greek "Western" codices can't tell us a full NT order, but the Codex Bezea does have an order that is  different from your whole list (In that the General Epistles precede Acts). We don't know what else was between Mark and then of of III John, but there appears to be about 65 sheets are missing, which seems too much for the General Epistles, but not enough for Paul. It's order would be...

            Gospels, [unknown], General Epistles, Acts.

            Of course the volume has been rebound more than once, but its pretty clear that the General Epistles proceded Acts since the sheet with the end of III John in Latin has the beginning of Acts in Greek on the other side.

            You may mean Western translations. That would make since since the TR was the original source of these translations.

            Muratorian Canon, Eusebius
            Latin Vulgate
            Erasmus (1466-1536)
            Robert Stephanus (1503-1559)
            Theodore Beza (1519-1605)
            Bonaventure Elzevir (1583-1652)
            Abraham Elzevir (1592-1652)
            ..............................
            Gospels, Paul, Acts, General Epistles, and Revelation
            Sinaiticus
            .............................
            Gospels, Acts, General Epistles, Paul, Revelation
            Byzantine Text
            Laodicean Council (360-363), Athanasius (367), 
            Vaticanus,  Alexandrinus, Ephraimi Rescriptus, some early papyri and other manuscripts,
            Like the western text, the early papyri do not include any codices of the full bible, only of single books or collections. There are only a few undisputed collections in the early papyri:

            p45 Gospels and Acts (it's unclear if there were anything else. The Catholic letters are possible since they were small and could easily have been lost, but there is not evidence that they were present either).
            p46 Paul (including Hebrews, missing the pastorals)
            p53 Had Matthew and Acts, unknown what else.
            p61 several fragments of Paul (8th century)
            p72 Mixed collection of non-biblical with I & II Peter and Jude
            p74 Acts and the Catholics. It's not exactly early (7th century)
            p75 Only Luke and John are unambiguously present
            p84 Mark and John (6th century)
            p92 Ephesians and II Thessalonians (don't know what else)

            There are a few others that are disputed (p4/p64).
            Lachmann (1793-1851), Tischendorf (1815-1874), Tregelles (1813-1875), Westcott (1825-1901) and Hort (1828-1892) 
            Russian Bible
            ...........................
            And Marcion has only Gospels and Paul.
            Any comments, corrections, and/or significant additions are welcome.
            Ron Minton

            Note there there is some variance of order within the collection.

            Gospels: Matthew Mark Luke John (most Greek manuscripts).
                           Mathew John Luke Mark (Dea, W, many Latin manuscripts).

            Paul: Hebrews bounces around quite a bit. There are a few other orders ignoring the location of Hebrews Dr. Trobisch has cataloged all the orders in Greek manuscripts.

            Acts/Catholics: Is Acts first or are the Catholics first?



            On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, TeunisV <tvanlopik@...> wrote:

            For an excellent overview, see: http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
            Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
            Teunis van Lopik



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