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Re: [textualcriticism] Russian order Gen Epis

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  • Bill Warren
    Ron, this is not just a Western order since many/most of the earlier mss have the books in this order with the General Epistles (James-Jude) linked to Acts.
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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      Ron, this is not just a Western order since many/most of the earlier mss have the books in this order with the General Epistles (James-Jude) linked to Acts.  Codex Sinaiticus is, of course, about the earliest codex with all of the NT books and has the order of Gospels, Paulines, Acts-Generals, and then Rev., along with Barnabas, and the Shepherd of Hermas after Rev.  On the other hand, Vaticanus has the General Epistles after Acts as does Alexandrinus and Ephraimi.    

      paz y gracia, 

      Bill Warren, Ph.D.
      Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
      Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
      New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary



      On Jan 17, 2011, at 12:05 PM, ron minton wrote:

       

      I was asked why the Russian Bible has the General Epistles after Acts.
      I understand that the Peshitta has James, 1 Peter, and 1 John immediately after Acts.  However, I think the Russian Bible just follows the Western Text order.  Anyone have information on this?

      Grace be with you,
      Ron Minton - Ukraine
      USA cell = 240-432-8925
      Skype = 240-949-2653



    • Alberto
      Hello, Ron! The Russian Bible follows the order of the canonical books attributed to the Laodicean Council (AD 360-363). This order is partially evidenced
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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        Hello, Ron!

        The Russian Bible follows the order of the canonical books attributed to the Laodicean Council (AD 360-363). This order is partially evidenced within early papyri and manuscripts and occurs in the IV century Festal Letter of Athanasius (AD 367). The Bizantine text, also, follows that order.

        Just the Western Text (Vulgata Latina) follows the classical order that all of us know.

        I hope that i answer your question.

        Thanks!

        Alberto Olivares
        México city, D.F.

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, ron minton <ronminton@...> wrote:
        >
        > I was asked why the Russian Bible has the General Epistles after Acts.
        > I understand that the Peshitta has James, 1 Peter, and 1 John immediately
        > after Acts. However, I think the Russian Bible just follows the Western
        > Text order. Anyone have information on this?
        >
        > Grace be with you,
        > Ron Minton - Ukraine
        > USA cell = 240-432-8925
        > Skype = 240-949-2653
        >
      • ron minton
        Thanks to all who replied. Where can I quickly find the order of NT books in Marcion Muratorian Canon Eusebius Athanasius Ron Minton ... Thanks to all who
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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          Thanks to all who replied.  Where can I quickly find the order of NT books in 
          Marcion  
          Muratorian Canon  
          Eusebius  
          Athanasius

          Ron Minton

          On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Alberto <vaqoli@...> wrote:

          Hello, Ron!

          The Russian Bible follows the order of the canonical books attributed to the Laodicean Council (AD 360-363). This order is partially evidenced within early papyri and manuscripts and occurs in the IV century Festal Letter of Athanasius (AD 367). The Bizantine text, also, follows that order.

          Just the Western Text (Vulgata Latina) follows the classical order that all of us know.

          I hope that i answer your question.

          Thanks!

          Alberto Olivares
          México city, D.F.


          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, ron minton <ronminton@...> wrote:
          >
          > I was asked why the Russian Bible has the General Epistles after Acts.  I understand that the Peshitta has James, 1 Peter, and 1 John immediately after Acts. However, I think the Russian Bible just follows the Western Text order. Anyone have information on this?

          > Grace be with you,
          > Ron Minton - Ukraine
          > USA cell = 240-432-8925
          > Skype = 240-949-2653
        • TeunisV
          For an excellent overview, see: http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc Gregory s Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140. Teunis van Lopik
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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            For an excellent overview, see: http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
            Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
            Teunis van Lopik


            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Bill Warren <WFWarren@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ron, this is not just a Western order since many/most of the earlier mss have the books in this order with the General Epistles (James-Jude) linked to Acts. Codex Sinaiticus is, of course, about the earliest codex with all of the NT books and has the order of Gospels, Paulines, Acts-Generals, and then Rev., along with Barnabas, and the Shepherd of Hermas after Rev. On the other hand, Vaticanus has the General Epistles after Acts as does Alexandrinus and Ephraimi.
            >
            > paz y gracia,
            >
            > Bill Warren, Ph.D.
            > Director of the Center for New Testament Textual Studies
            > Landrum P. Leavell, II, Professor of New Testament and Greek
            > New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
            >
            >
            >
            > On Jan 17, 2011, at 12:05 PM, ron minton wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > I was asked why the Russian Bible has the General Epistles after Acts.
            > > I understand that the Peshitta has James, 1 Peter, and 1 John immediately after Acts. However, I think the Russian Bible just follows the Western Text order. Anyone have information on this?
            > >
            > > Grace be with you,
            > > Ron Minton - Ukraine
            > > USA cell = 240-432-8925
            > > Skype = 240-949-2653
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • ron minton
            OK. If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this: Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation Western Text Muratorian Canon,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 18, 2011
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              OK.  If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this:

              Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation
              Western Text
              Muratorian Canon, Eusebius
              Latin Vulgate
              Erasmus (1466-1536)
              Robert Stephanus (1503-1559)
              Theodore Beza (1519-1605)
              Bonaventure Elzevir (1583-1652)
              Abraham Elzevir (1592-1652)
              ..............................
              Gospels, Paul, Acts, General Epistles, and Revelation
              Sinaiticus
              .............................
              Gospels, Acts, General Epistles, Paul, Revelation
              Byzantine Text
              Laodicean Council (360-363), Athanasius (367), 
              Vaticanus,  Alexandrinus, Ephraimi Rescriptus, some early papyri and other manuscripts,
              Lachmann (1793-1851), Tischendorf (1815-1874), Tregelles (1813-1875), Westcott (1825-1901) and Hort (1828-1892) 
              Russian Bible
              ...........................
              And Marcion has only Gospels and Paul.
              Any comments, corrections, and/or significant additions are welcome.
              Ron Minton



              On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, TeunisV <tvanlopik@...> wrote:

              For an excellent overview, see: http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
              Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
              Teunis van Lopik


            • Alberto
              Hello Ron! With Marcion (AD 100 - 165), there is a big problem, he only accept the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul, just 11 books at all. Because he
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 19, 2011
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                Hello Ron!

                With Marcion (AD 100 - 165), there is a big problem, he only accept the Gospel of Luke and the Epistles of Paul, just 11 books at all. Because he rejected every think that have part of the jews religion, for that he rejectec the O.T. (Tanaj). And in all the Epistles of Paul he cut all the quotatios of the O.T. (Tanaj).

                In other words, he made his own Bible according to his only purposes. He was the precursor of the maniqueism. He make 2 books: 1) "Antitesis" and 2) it was a recopilation of his own writings.

                Thanks!

                Alberto Olivares
                México city, D.F.

                --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, ron minton <ronminton@...> wrote:
                >
                > OK. If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this:
                >
                > Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation
                > Western Text
                > Muratorian Canon, Eusebius
                > Latin Vulgate
                > Erasmus (1466-1536)
                > Robert Stephanus (1503-1559)
                > Theodore Beza (1519-1605)
                > Bonaventure Elzevir (1583-1652)
                > Abraham Elzevir (1592-1652)
                > ..............................
                > Gospels, Paul, Acts, General Epistles, and Revelation
                > Sinaiticus
                > .............................
                > Gospels, Acts, General Epistles, Paul, Revelation
                > Byzantine Text
                > Laodicean Council (360-363), Athanasius (367),
                > Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, Ephraimi Rescriptus, some early papyri and other
                > manuscripts,
                > Lachmann (1793-1851), Tischendorf (1815-1874), Tregelles (1813-1875),
                > Westcott (1825-1901) and Hort (1828-1892)
                > Russian Bible
                > ...........................
                > And Marcion has only Gospels and Paul.
                > Any comments, corrections, and/or significant additions are welcome.
                > Ron Minton
                >
                >
                >
                > On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, TeunisV <tvanlopik@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > For an excellent overview, see:
                > > http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
                > > Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
                > > Teunis van Lopik
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Robert Relyea
                ... So the early collections did not typically contain the whole New Testament. In fact the oldest collections we have of the whole new testament where
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 19, 2011
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                  On 01/18/2011 02:56 PM, ron minton wrote: OK.  If I understood Tischendorf and the others correctly, we have this:

                  So the early collections did not typically contain the whole New Testament. In fact the oldest collections we have of the whole new testament where actually full bibles (the great uncials).

                  Before and after that, the New Testament circulated in the following collections:

                  Gospels
                  Acts+General Epistles
                  Paul
                  Revelation

                  Gospels, Acts, Paul, General Epistles, Revelation
                  Western Text
                  I'm not sure what you mean by 'western text'. Usually that term refers to the following Greek codices plus the old Latin and maybe the old Syriac texts:
                      Codex Bezea (Dea) - Gospels - General Epistles (only the last of III John extant in Latin) - Acts
                      Codex Claramontanus (Dp) - Paul
                      Codex Augiensis (Fp) - Paul
                      Codex Boernerianus (Gp) -Paul (Note that Codex Sangellenses is clearly meant to be the Gospel version pair to this codex, but the text is not Western).
                      [Codex Sangermanensis (Dabs1) and Codex Waldeccensis (Dabs2) are both copies of Dp] -Paul

                  So these Greek "Western" codices can't tell us a full NT order, but the Codex Bezea does have an order that is  different from your whole list (In that the General Epistles precede Acts). We don't know what else was between Mark and then of of III John, but there appears to be about 65 sheets are missing, which seems too much for the General Epistles, but not enough for Paul. It's order would be...

                  Gospels, [unknown], General Epistles, Acts.

                  Of course the volume has been rebound more than once, but its pretty clear that the General Epistles proceded Acts since the sheet with the end of III John in Latin has the beginning of Acts in Greek on the other side.

                  You may mean Western translations. That would make since since the TR was the original source of these translations.

                  Muratorian Canon, Eusebius
                  Latin Vulgate
                  Erasmus (1466-1536)
                  Robert Stephanus (1503-1559)
                  Theodore Beza (1519-1605)
                  Bonaventure Elzevir (1583-1652)
                  Abraham Elzevir (1592-1652)
                  ..............................
                  Gospels, Paul, Acts, General Epistles, and Revelation
                  Sinaiticus
                  .............................
                  Gospels, Acts, General Epistles, Paul, Revelation
                  Byzantine Text
                  Laodicean Council (360-363), Athanasius (367), 
                  Vaticanus,  Alexandrinus, Ephraimi Rescriptus, some early papyri and other manuscripts,
                  Like the western text, the early papyri do not include any codices of the full bible, only of single books or collections. There are only a few undisputed collections in the early papyri:

                  p45 Gospels and Acts (it's unclear if there were anything else. The Catholic letters are possible since they were small and could easily have been lost, but there is not evidence that they were present either).
                  p46 Paul (including Hebrews, missing the pastorals)
                  p53 Had Matthew and Acts, unknown what else.
                  p61 several fragments of Paul (8th century)
                  p72 Mixed collection of non-biblical with I & II Peter and Jude
                  p74 Acts and the Catholics. It's not exactly early (7th century)
                  p75 Only Luke and John are unambiguously present
                  p84 Mark and John (6th century)
                  p92 Ephesians and II Thessalonians (don't know what else)

                  There are a few others that are disputed (p4/p64).
                  Lachmann (1793-1851), Tischendorf (1815-1874), Tregelles (1813-1875), Westcott (1825-1901) and Hort (1828-1892) 
                  Russian Bible
                  ...........................
                  And Marcion has only Gospels and Paul.
                  Any comments, corrections, and/or significant additions are welcome.
                  Ron Minton

                  Note there there is some variance of order within the collection.

                  Gospels: Matthew Mark Luke John (most Greek manuscripts).
                                 Mathew John Luke Mark (Dea, W, many Latin manuscripts).

                  Paul: Hebrews bounces around quite a bit. There are a few other orders ignoring the location of Hebrews Dr. Trobisch has cataloged all the orders in Greek manuscripts.

                  Acts/Catholics: Is Acts first or are the Catholics first?



                  On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 3:00 PM, TeunisV <tvanlopik@...> wrote:

                  For an excellent overview, see: http://www.archive.org/details/novumtestamentum31tisc
                  Gregory's Prol. tot Tisch8, vol. 3, pp. 131-140.
                  Teunis van Lopik



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