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[textualcriticism] John 8:6 - as though he heard them not - Beza Greek editions and possible annotation ?

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  • schmuel
    Hi Folks, This variant is not discussed too much because it is embedded within the Pericope Adultera. However it is fascinating for those who accept the
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 11, 2010
      Hi Folks,

      This variant is not discussed too much because it is embedded within the Pericope Adultera. However it is fascinating for those who accept the Pericope and also in Received Text history. Generally this phrase is in the Greek manuscripts that have the Pericope, not the Latin. (And I have not seen any church writer attestation for the phrase.) A major factor in consideration will be your general perspective on inclusion/omission, however my point here is more historical, which manuscripts and which editions support the phrase, especially in TR editions .. than conceptual.

      John 8:6
      This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him.
      But Jesus stooped down,
      and with his finger wrote on the ground,
      as though he heard them not.

      "as though he heard them not."
      mh prospoioumenos  - mh prospoioumenos

      The Laparola apparatus
      http://www.laparola.net/greco/index.php?rif1=50&rif2=8:6
      Emacs!

      This is incomplete, since Scrivener gives the earlier Stephanus editions of 1546 and 1549 as having the phrase. In textual studies, 1550 is the central Stephanus edition, so he changed to omit in 1550, thus the entry.  Based on Scrivener the Complutensian has the phrase (following Greek manuscripts against the Vulgate !) and Erasmus does not.

      Hodges-Farsted says no, Robinson-Pierpont yes.

      One question is the numerical count of Byzantine manuscripts.  Interestingly this apparatus does not split the Byz (e.g. Byz-part.) beyond the specified families and mss in the omission section.

      Also, my main interest, there is the question of Beza.  While Scrivener is indicating that this is not in Beza editions (and Beza's Latin edition online omits the phrase from the Pericope, and that is to be expected)  there are notes of interest.

      ==================

      John Gill
      "though this clause is not in many copies, nor in the Vulgate Latin, nor in any of the Oriental versions,
      but is in five of Beza's copies, and in the Complutensian edition."

      Is this based on a Beza annotation ?

      ==================

      Memoirs of the life and works of ... Lancelot Andrewes (1860)
      Arthur T. Russell 
      http://books.google.com/books?id=uyYBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA342
      John viii.6,
      mh prospoioumenos, not in Stephens, but in Beza's later editions, as previously in the Complutensian.

      Emacs!

      This looks to be a direct contradiction to Scrivener.

      ==================

      Dr. William Smith's Dictionary of the Bible (1888)
      http://books.google.com/books?id=e9UMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA2132
      note about "the enumeration given by Scrivener" includes John 7:8

      ==================

        So it would seem that direct referencing to Beza on the verse needs modern checking. 
        Is it possible for anyone to assist on this research ?

        Thanks.

      Shalom,
      Steven Avery
      Queens, NY
    • David P
      Steven, I just checked my copy of Beza 1598, and it does not contain the phrase MH PROSPOIOUMENOS. For a very detailed list of manuscript evidence for this,
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 24, 2010
        Steven, I just checked my copy of Beza 1598, and it does not contain the phrase MH PROSPOIOUMENOS.

        For a very detailed list of manuscript evidence for this, download my PA chart (288KB) from http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/pachart.pdf

        Beza's New Testament is in minuscule cursive with tachygraphy and ligatures, which many people, though they can read a standard Greek New Testament edition, still cannot read, because they do not know the ligatures.

        Here is a 55 page reference on Greek ligatures for beginners:

        http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821

        David Robert Palmer
      • TeunisV
        The five codices Beza is referring to are Etienne s. (Alpha, 1, is the Complutensis.) Teunis van Lopik ... though this clause is not in many copies, nor in
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 26, 2010
          The five codices Beza is referring to are Etienne's. (Alpha, 1, is the Complutensis.)
          Teunis van Lopik

          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "David P" <davekanaka@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Steven, I just checked my copy of Beza 1598, and it does not contain the phrase MH PROSPOIOUMENOS.
          >
          > For a very detailed list of manuscript evidence for this, download my PA chart (288KB) from http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/pachart.pdf
          >
          > Beza's New Testament is in minuscule cursive with tachygraphy and ligatures, which many people, though they can read a standard Greek New Testament edition, still cannot read, because they do not know the ligatures.
          >
          > Here is a 55 page reference on Greek ligatures for beginners:
          >
          > http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821
          >
          > David Robert Palmer
          >
          >>>>John Gill
          "though this clause is not in many copies, nor in the Vulgate Latin, nor in any of the Oriental versions,
          but is in five of Beza's copies, and in the Complutensian edition."
          Is this based on a Beza annotation ?
          >>>>>
        • Jonathan Borland
          Dear List, The internal character of the expression MH PROSPOIOUMENOS in most (3/4 [?]) of the manuscripts that contain John 7:53–8:11 suggests that it
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 26, 2010
            Dear List,

            The internal character of the expression MH PROSPOIOUMENOS in most (3/4 [?]) of the manuscripts that contain John 7:53–8:11 suggests that it occupied a place in the earliest strands of the tradition. Note that this opinion opposes that of von Soden who maintains that the m1-m2-m3 groups are earliest, although in this case many manuscripts of the m1 group actually contain the expression.

            The difficulty of determining the expression's meaning could have motivated its removal in Greek witnesses, and such expressions typically bothered translators. For example, how should the construction be expressed in Latin? One could simply use _dissimulans_, but still it is unclear: does Jesus write "concealing" what he was writing, or did he write while "ignoring" them, or something else? One could try to interpret the meaning, and depending on the result end up with various options, just two of which are: _simulans se eos non audivisse_ "pretending that he did not hear them," or, causally, _cum eos non audivisset_ "because he did not hear them." Note that the last possibility would allow for an accidental omission of the expression in Latin by way of homeoarchton error (cum...cum), but this theoretical possibility is far less likely than the alternative, namely, that the expression was removed either because it was difficult to understand or because it was difficult to imagine Jesus dissembling or pretending or deceiving, etc.

            In my Master's thesis on the Old Latin tradition of John 7:53–8:11 I briefly discuss several places where early Greek witnesses may depend on the Latin tradition based on transcriptional errors that occur in Latin but not in Greek. If further investigation confirms such Greek dependence on the very early and influential Old Latin tradition, it is possible to suggest that the absence of the expression MH PROSPOIOUMENOS in the influential Latin tradition contributed to its absence in a number of manuscripts of the Greek tradition.

            Jonathan C. Borland






            On Dec 25, 2010, at 6:12 AM, David P wrote:


            Steven, I just checked my copy of Beza 1598, and it does not contain the phrase MH PROSPOIOUMENOS.

            For a very detailed list of manuscript evidence for this, download my PA chart (288KB) fromhttp://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/pachart.pdf 

            Beza's New Testament is in minuscule cursive with tachygraphy and ligatures, which many people, though they can read a standard Greek New Testament edition, still cannot read, because they do not know the ligatures.

            Here is a 55 page reference on Greek ligatures for beginners:

            http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821 

            David Robert Palmer


          • TeunisV
            On the interactions between Greek- and Latin-speaking Christians in the case of the PA, see Knust/Wasserman s nice article:
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 27, 2010
              On the interactions between Greek- and Latin-speaking Christians in the case of the PA, see Knust/Wasserman's nice article:
              http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7931289&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0017816010000799
              Especially p. 429.
              Teunis van Lopik



              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Borland <nihao@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear List,
              >
              > The internal character of the expression MH PROSPOIOUMENOS in most
              > (3/4 [?]) of the manuscripts that contain John 7:53–8:11 suggests that
              > it occupied a place in the earliest strands of the tradition. Note
              > that this opinion opposes that of von Soden who maintains that the m1-
              > m2-m3 groups are earliest, although in this case many manuscripts of
              > the m1 group actually contain the expression.
              >
              > The difficulty of determining the expression's meaning could have
              > motivated its removal in Greek witnesses, and such expressions
              > typically bothered translators. For example, how should the
              > construction be expressed in Latin? One could simply use
              > _dissimulans_, but still it is unclear: does Jesus write "concealing"
              > what he was writing, or did he write while "ignoring" them, or
              > something else? One could try to interpret the meaning, and depending
              > on the result end up with various options, just two of which are:
              > _simulans se eos non audivisse_ "pretending that he did not hear
              > them," or, causally, _cum eos non audivisset_ "because he did not hear
              > them." Note that the last possibility would allow for an accidental
              > omission of the expression in Latin by way of homeoarchton error
              > (cum...cum), but this theoretical possibility is far less likely than
              > the alternative, namely, that the expression was removed either
              > because it was difficult to understand or because it was difficult to
              > imagine Jesus dissembling or pretending or deceiving, etc.
              >
              > In my Master's thesis on the Old Latin tradition of John 7:53–8:11 I
              > briefly discuss several places where early Greek witnesses may depend
              > on the Latin tradition based on transcriptional errors that occur in
              > Latin but not in Greek. If further investigation confirms such Greek
              > dependence on the very early and influential Old Latin tradition, it
              > is possible to suggest that the absence of the expression MH
              > PROSPOIOUMENOS in the influential Latin tradition contributed to its
              > absence in a number of manuscripts of the Greek tradition.
              >
              > Jonathan C. Borland
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Dec 25, 2010, at 6:12 AM, David P wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > Steven, I just checked my copy of Beza 1598, and it does not contain
              > > the phrase MH PROSPOIOUMENOS.
              > >
              > > For a very detailed list of manuscript evidence for this, download
              > > my PA chart (288KB) fromhttp://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/pachart.pdf
              > >
              > > Beza's New Testament is in minuscule cursive with tachygraphy and
              > > ligatures, which many people, though they can read a standard Greek
              > > New Testament edition, still cannot read, because they do not know
              > > the ligatures.
              > >
              > > Here is a 55 page reference on Greek ligatures for beginners:
              > >
              > > http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821
              > >
              > > David Robert Palmer
              > >
              >
            • mydogregae01
              Mr. Palmer, Your book contains some copies of some medieval Greek ligatures or shorthand. A nice collection, but numerous older texts have better and more
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 4, 2011
                Mr. Palmer,

                Your book contains some copies of some medieval Greek ligatures
                or shorthand. A nice collection, but numerous older texts have better
                and more extensive samples.

                Thus, why sell this? Why not make it freely available if it indeed helps beginners? Some of your ligature samples are only seen in printed texts, and not in actual manuscripts. Many common ligatures seen in the manuscripts are not seen in your copy. I guess I am surprised that you are selling this! Had it been an extensive work on your behalf, and had actual references to actual manuscripts, then charging for others to see it may be justified. But not what I have seen in the sample pages! I have not seen all 55 pages, but what I have seen does not move me to want to pay to see more. Convince me otherwise. Mixing printed ligatures with manually produced one's may create more confusion. Much better would be the addition of the manuscript or manuscripts which actually have the ligature, even a copy of the actual image/text, then also categorizing them per date! Now that would be worth $7.00.


                Sincerely,
                Mr. G. S. Dykes


                >
                > Here is a 55 page reference on Greek ligatures for beginners:
                >
                > http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821
                >
                > David Robert Palmer


                >
              • Daniel Buck
                If you have a GNT like the NA-27 or the Robinson/Pierpont If one is studying ligatures in minuscule manuscripts, Robinson/Pierpont is going to be a whole lot
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 4, 2011
                  "If you have a GNT like the NA-27 or the Robinson/Pierpont"

                  If one is studying ligatures in minuscule manuscripts, Robinson/Pierpont is going to be a whole lot more useful than NA-27 in following along through the text. R/P is actually based on the minuscules; NA27 is based on the majuscules (uncials and papyri). Where the text of a minuscule departs from R/P, it is highly unlikely that it will follow NA27. Outside of Revelation, it's more likely to follow the TR.

                  Daniel Buck

                • David Robert Palmer
                  Gary, Thanks for your feedback on this. Does this mean you purchased a copy? I will be talking with you about this again. Dave From: mydogregae01 Sent:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 4, 2011
                    Gary,
                    Thanks for your feedback on this.  Does this mean you purchased a copy?
                     
                    I will be talking with you about this again.
                     
                    Dave
                     
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:00 AM
                    Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: John 8:6 - Palmers book sale
                     
                     

                    Mr. Palmer,

                    Your book contains some copies of some medieval Greek ligatures
                    or shorthand. A nice collection, but numerous older texts have better
                    and more extensive samples.

                    Thus, why sell this? Why not make it freely available if it indeed helps beginners? Some of your ligature samples are only seen in printed texts, and not in actual manuscripts. Many common ligatures seen in the manuscripts are not seen in your copy. I guess I am surprised that you are selling this! Had it been an extensive work on your behalf, and had actual references to actual manuscripts, then charging for others to see it may be justified. But not what I have seen in the sample pages! I have not seen all 55 pages, but what I have seen does not move me to want to pay to see more. Convince me otherwise. Mixing printed ligatures with manually produced one's may create more confusion. Much better would be the addition of the manuscript or manuscripts which actually have the ligature, even a copy of the actual image/text, then also categorizing them per date! Now that would be worth $7.00.

                    Sincerely,
                    Mr. G. S. Dykes

                    >
                    > Here is
                    a 55 page reference on Greek ligatures for beginners:
                    >
                    >
                    href="http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821">http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821
                    >
                    > David Robert Palmer

                    >

                  • David Robert Palmer
                    Gary, I just now realized that you sent your mail to the whole list. Well, I guess I disagree about it being worth 7 dollars. Really, is that much money? I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 5, 2011
                      Gary, I just now realized that you sent your mail to the whole list.
                       
                      Well, I guess I disagree about it being worth 7 dollars.  Really, is that much money?  I know people who spend that much every single day on coffee.
                       
                      Anyway, I don’t receive the 7 dollars, but only a fraction.
                       
                      I’ll have you know I did about 5 months work on that book.  I also paid hundreds of dollars for Adobe Acrobat so I could make that book.  And there is nothing like it available anywhere else, and it is worth what I am charging for it.  And it is what beginners need.  If there was something better available, I would have already bought it (probably for $30) and would never have complained about the price.
                       
                      Feel free, Gary, to work 5 months on a replacement book that is as good as mine, and then give it away.
                       
                      David Robert Palmer
                       
                      I do happily recommend my ligature book/download.  The link:
                       
                      Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:00 AM
                      Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: John 8:6 - Palmers book sale
                       
                       

                      Mr. Palmer,

                      Your book contains some copies of some medieval Greek ligatures
                      or shorthand. A nice collection, but numerous older texts have better
                      and more extensive samples.

                      Thus, why sell this? Why not make it freely available if it indeed helps beginners? Some of your ligature samples are only seen in printed texts, and not in actual manuscripts. Many common ligatures seen in the manuscripts are not seen in your copy. I guess I am surprised that you are selling this! Had it been an extensive work on your behalf, and had actual references to actual manuscripts, then charging for others to see it may be justified. But not what I have seen in the sample pages! I have not seen all 55 pages, but what I have seen does not move me to want to pay to see more. Convince me otherwise. Mixing printed ligatures with manually produced one's may create more confusion. Much better would be the addition of the manuscript or manuscripts which actually have the ligature, even a copy of the actual image/text, then also categorizing them per date! Now that would be worth $7.00.

                      Sincerely,
                      Mr. G. S. Dykes

                    • daniel_josiah_mount
                      [EDIT: This thread is now closed! ---Wie] David, For future reference, you can create PDFs for free with OpenOffice.org, an easy-to-use free office suite
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jan 6, 2011
                        [EDIT: This thread is now closed! ---Wie]

                        David,

                        For future reference, you can create PDFs for free with OpenOffice.org, an easy-to-use free office suite comparable to Microsoft Office. If you need more fine-tuned controls, you can go with Scribus (http://www.scribus.net).

                        Of course, this doesn't change the fact that you spent hundreds of dollars to create this one, but hopefully you can save that money in the future!

                        Daniel J. Mount

                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "David Robert Palmer" <davekanaka@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gary, I just now realized that you sent your mail to the whole list.
                        >
                        > Well, I guess I disagree about it being worth 7 dollars. Really, is that much money? I know people who spend that much every single day on coffee.
                        >
                        > Anyway, I don’t receive the 7 dollars, but only a fraction.
                        >
                        > I’ll have you know I did about 5 months work on that book. I also paid hundreds of dollars for Adobe Acrobat so I could make that book. And there is nothing like it available anywhere else, and it is worth what I am charging for it. And it is what beginners need. If there was something better available, I would have already bought it (probably for $30) and would never have complained about the price.
                        >
                        > Feel free, Gary, to work 5 months on a replacement book that is as good as mine, and then give it away.
                        >
                        > David Robert Palmer
                        >
                        > I do happily recommend my ligature book/download. The link:
                        > http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/quick-reference-greek-ligature-guide/14355821
                        >
                        > From: mydogregae01
                        > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:00 AM
                        > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: John 8:6 - Palmers book sale
                        >
                        >
                        > Mr. Palmer,
                        >
                        > Your book contains some copies of some medieval Greek ligatures
                        > or shorthand. A nice collection, but numerous older texts have better
                        > and more extensive samples.
                        >
                        > Thus, why sell this? Why not make it freely available if it indeed helps beginners? Some of your ligature samples are only seen in printed texts, and not in actual manuscripts. Many common ligatures seen in the manuscripts are not seen in your copy. I guess I am surprised that you are selling this! Had it been an extensive work on your behalf, and had actual references to actual manuscripts, then charging for others to see it may be justified. But not what I have seen in the sample pages! I have not seen all 55 pages, but what I have seen does not move me to want to pay to see more. Convince me otherwise. Mixing printed ligatures with manually produced one's may create more confusion. Much better would be the addition of the manuscript or manuscripts which actually have the ligature, even a copy of the actual image/text, then also categorizing them per date! Now that would be worth $7.00.
                        >
                        > Sincerely,
                        > Mr. G. S. Dykes
                        >
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