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Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?

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  • tonyz@eskimo.com
    Well, there s a verse from Numbers (the Blessing of the Priests) on a 7th-century BC amulet. Of course, depending on when you think Numbers was composed, this
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 20, 2010
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      Well, there's a verse from Numbers (the Blessing of the Priests) on a
      7th-century BC amulet. Of course, depending on when you think Numbers
      was composed, this could be a _source_ for the book rather than a
      quote from it.

      Do you want direct or indirect references? It's known that Ezekiel
      the Tragedian (3rd century BC) wrote a tragedy of at least
      some parts of the Old Testament, but IIRC his texts didn't survive
      and he's known only from later references. So what do you count
      him as?

      It's widely agreed that Chronicles is based on Samuel/Kings with a
      bunch of other material added, so you could argue that Chronicles
      is a witness to the earlier books.


      Tony Zbaraschuk

      > Any verses. But no, what I mean is a reference outside of the scriptures
      > that refer to or cite old testament scriptures. Like the people who
      > mentioned Philo, that's more along the lines of what I'm looking for.
      >
      > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Godwin" <meta@...>
      > wrote:
      >>
      >> May I ask: What verses? Of course there are many quotes in the NT,
      >> esp. Jesus, that are based on traditions (not just OT), such as love
      >> neighbor as self. Is that what you mean?
      >>
      >> Thanks,
      >> Richard.
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: Jovial
      >> To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 6:56 AM
      >> Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external
      >> reference to any Old Testament scriptures?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Philo quotes a few verses.
      >>
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: misterboswell
      >> To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:49 PM
      >> Subject: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference
      >> to any Old Testament scriptures?
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference
      >> to any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are
      >> some that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but
      >> I'm not concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external
      >> references.
      >> Thank you for your time.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Richard
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Richard Godwin
      Dave answered this to some extent. I ll add that the DSS manuscripts consist of three basic kinds: First, actual Hebrew biblical documents (some with
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 20, 2010
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        Dave answered this to some extent. I'll add that the DSS manuscripts
        consist of three basic kinds: First, actual Hebrew biblical documents (some
        with different versions), some of which later became canonized, second,
        commentaries on some of these biblical documents, third, sectarian
        documents, some of which made references to biblical documents. So the
        second and third would be what you want, IF these are what you would call
        "external". Certainly the second applies to what you request.

        What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by
        Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian, who either had the template for
        Genesis 1-11 that was used by the Yehud (Judeans) in composing Genesis, or
        is basically the same.

        Richard.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "misterboswell" <misterboswell@...>
        To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:38 AM
        Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to
        any Old Testament scriptures?


        Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS were the
        earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.

        But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed at an
        external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on them or
        whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along the lines of
        what I'm looking for.

        And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if that is the
        earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so sacred for
        so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it are from
        the first century?

        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > The Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls contain a few verses and dates to ~ 600
        > bc.
        > Â george
        > gfsomsel
        >
        >
        > â?¦ search for truth, hear truth,
        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        > defend the truth till death.
        >
        >
        > - Jan Hus
        > _________
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Jovial <jovial@...>
        > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 6:56:02 AM
        > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference to
        > any Old Testament scriptures?
        >
        > Â
        > Philo quotes a few verses.
        > Â
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > >From: misterboswell
        > >To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
        > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:49 PM
        > >Subject: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference to
        > >any Old Testament scriptures?
        > >
        > >Â
        > >I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference to
        > >any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are some
        > >that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but I'm not
        > >concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external references.
        > >Thank you for your time.
        > >
        > >
        >




        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links



        Richard
      • Steve Puluka
        ... There are a number of places to go hunting for references to the Old Testament older than Josephus. As already mentioned, Philo of Alexandria precedes
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 20, 2010
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          On Jun 19, 2010, at 10:49 PM, misterboswell wrote:
          > I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference
          > to any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are
          > some that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but
          > I'm not concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external
          > references.
          > Thank you for your time.
          >


          There are a number of places to go hunting for references to the Old
          Testament older than Josephus. As already mentioned, Philo of
          Alexandria precedes him. Hendrickson has a pretty complete
          translation with an excellent index in the back to biblical cross
          references.

          Philo. The works of Philo complete and unabridged. Translated by C.
          D. Yonge. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1993.

          Also mentioned were the Dead Sea scrolls. Many of the non-biblical
          works make reference to scripture. These are even older but cover a
          wider range of age and are more difficult to place in particular
          times. These are two good editions in English. The Vermes volume
          also has a very good introductory material to get the lay of the
          land. Unfortunately, these are not as well indexed so you will need
          to do a lot of hunting on your own for specific references.

          Garcia Martinez, Florentino, and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar. The Dead
          Sea scrolls study edition. 2 vols. New York: Brill, 1997.
          This edition contains the non-biblical material translated to
          English and arranged by serial number from cave 1 to 11. The volume
          is also well annotated. This facilitates finding cross-references to
          specific scroll material from scholarly work.

          Vermes, Geza. The complete Dead Sea scrolls in English. New York:
          Penguin Press, 1997.
          Vermes is an acknowledged international authority on the Dead Sea
          Scrolls. This is a complete English version of the scroll material
          with an excellent collection of introductory material outlining the
          major findings on the community.

          The next place to look are the Old Testament books that did not make
          the cut in anyone's canon. These are known as the pseudepigrapha.
          This parallel collection of Old Testament literature is specifically
          of Jewish origin. Many of these widely circulated during New
          Testament times. The books of Enoch and the Odes of Solomon were
          particularly popular with early Christians. The Ethiopian Orthodox
          Church includes 1 Enoch in their Old Testament canon. Charlesworth
          has a large two volume english translation. Again, the index is
          lacking you you'll need to do the leg work for the references.

          Charlesworth, James H. The Old Testament pseudepigrapha. 2 vols.
          Garden City: Doubleday, 1983.

          There are two other introductory volumes on commentaries of the Old
          Testament that you may find helpful. Most of the material outlined
          in these are post Josephus, but they do a good job of providing the
          lay of the land for early Jewish documentary evidence.

          Nadich, Judah. The legends of the rabbis volume 1: Jewish legends of
          the second commonwealth. Vol. 1. 2 vols. Northvale, NJ: Jason
          Aronson, Inc, 1994.

          Neusner, Jacob. Introduction to Rabbinic Literature. Anchor Bible
          Reference Library. New York: Doubleday, 1999.

          Steve Puluka
          MA, Theology Duquesne University
          Cantor Holy Ghost Church
          Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
          Mckees Rocks, PA
          http://puluka.com
        • torahman6
          Charlesworth ... The 2 vol. Pseudepigrapha ed. by Charlesworth has an excellent Scripture index in the back of volume 2. Perhaps not exhaustive, but I wouldn t
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 20, 2010
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            Charlesworth
            > has a large two volume english translation. Again, the index is
            > lacking you you'll need to do the leg work for the references.
            >



            The 2 vol. Pseudepigrapha ed. by Charlesworth has an excellent Scripture index in the back of volume 2. Perhaps not exhaustive, but I wouldn't say 'lacking.'

            Rob Kashow


            --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Steve Puluka <spuluka@...> wrote:
            >
            > On Jun 19, 2010, at 10:49 PM, misterboswell wrote:
            > > I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference
            > > to any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are
            > > some that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but
            > > I'm not concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external
            > > references.
            > > Thank you for your time.
            > >
            >
            >
            > There are a number of places to go hunting for references to the Old
            > Testament older than Josephus. As already mentioned, Philo of
            > Alexandria precedes him. Hendrickson has a pretty complete
            > translation with an excellent index in the back to biblical cross
            > references.
            >
            > Philo. The works of Philo complete and unabridged. Translated by C.
            > D. Yonge. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1993.
            >
            > Also mentioned were the Dead Sea scrolls. Many of the non-biblical
            > works make reference to scripture. These are even older but cover a
            > wider range of age and are more difficult to place in particular
            > times. These are two good editions in English. The Vermes volume
            > also has a very good introductory material to get the lay of the
            > land. Unfortunately, these are not as well indexed so you will need
            > to do a lot of hunting on your own for specific references.
            >
            > Garcia Martinez, Florentino, and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar. The Dead
            > Sea scrolls study edition. 2 vols. New York: Brill, 1997.
            > This edition contains the non-biblical material translated to
            > English and arranged by serial number from cave 1 to 11. The volume
            > is also well annotated. This facilitates finding cross-references to
            > specific scroll material from scholarly work.
            >
            > Vermes, Geza. The complete Dead Sea scrolls in English. New York:
            > Penguin Press, 1997.
            > Vermes is an acknowledged international authority on the Dead Sea
            > Scrolls. This is a complete English version of the scroll material
            > with an excellent collection of introductory material outlining the
            > major findings on the community.
            >
            > The next place to look are the Old Testament books that did not make
            > the cut in anyone's canon. These are known as the pseudepigrapha.
            > This parallel collection of Old Testament literature is specifically
            > of Jewish origin. Many of these widely circulated during New
            > Testament times. The books of Enoch and the Odes of Solomon were
            > particularly popular with early Christians. The Ethiopian Orthodox
            > Church includes 1 Enoch in their Old Testament canon. Charlesworth
            > has a large two volume english translation. Again, the index is
            > lacking you you'll need to do the leg work for the references.
            >
            > Charlesworth, James H. The Old Testament pseudepigrapha. 2 vols.
            > Garden City: Doubleday, 1983.
            >
            > There are two other introductory volumes on commentaries of the Old
            > Testament that you may find helpful. Most of the material outlined
            > in these are post Josephus, but they do a good job of providing the
            > lay of the land for early Jewish documentary evidence.
            >
            > Nadich, Judah. The legends of the rabbis volume 1: Jewish legends of
            > the second commonwealth. Vol. 1. 2 vols. Northvale, NJ: Jason
            > Aronson, Inc, 1994.
            >
            > Neusner, Jacob. Introduction to Rabbinic Literature. Anchor Bible
            > Reference Library. New York: Doubleday, 1999.
            >
            > Steve Puluka
            > MA, Theology Duquesne University
            > Cantor Holy Ghost Church
            > Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
            > Mckees Rocks, PA
            > http://puluka.com
            >
          • misterboswell
            Incredible! Thank you to everyone who posted for all your replies! This has been very helpful.
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 21, 2010
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              Incredible! Thank you to everyone who posted for all your replies! This has been very helpful.

              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "torahman6" <robkashow@...> wrote:
              >
              > Charlesworth
              > > has a large two volume english translation. Again, the index is
              > > lacking you you'll need to do the leg work for the references.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > The 2 vol. Pseudepigrapha ed. by Charlesworth has an excellent Scripture index in the back of volume 2. Perhaps not exhaustive, but I wouldn't say 'lacking.'
              >
              > Rob Kashow
              >
              >
              > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Steve Puluka <spuluka@> wrote:
              > >
              > > On Jun 19, 2010, at 10:49 PM, misterboswell wrote:
              > > > I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference
              > > > to any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are
              > > > some that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but
              > > > I'm not concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external
              > > > references.
              > > > Thank you for your time.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > There are a number of places to go hunting for references to the Old
              > > Testament older than Josephus. As already mentioned, Philo of
              > > Alexandria precedes him. Hendrickson has a pretty complete
              > > translation with an excellent index in the back to biblical cross
              > > references.
              > >
              > > Philo. The works of Philo complete and unabridged. Translated by C.
              > > D. Yonge. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1993.
              > >
              > > Also mentioned were the Dead Sea scrolls. Many of the non-biblical
              > > works make reference to scripture. These are even older but cover a
              > > wider range of age and are more difficult to place in particular
              > > times. These are two good editions in English. The Vermes volume
              > > also has a very good introductory material to get the lay of the
              > > land. Unfortunately, these are not as well indexed so you will need
              > > to do a lot of hunting on your own for specific references.
              > >
              > > Garcia Martinez, Florentino, and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar. The Dead
              > > Sea scrolls study edition. 2 vols. New York: Brill, 1997.
              > > This edition contains the non-biblical material translated to
              > > English and arranged by serial number from cave 1 to 11. The volume
              > > is also well annotated. This facilitates finding cross-references to
              > > specific scroll material from scholarly work.
              > >
              > > Vermes, Geza. The complete Dead Sea scrolls in English. New York:
              > > Penguin Press, 1997.
              > > Vermes is an acknowledged international authority on the Dead Sea
              > > Scrolls. This is a complete English version of the scroll material
              > > with an excellent collection of introductory material outlining the
              > > major findings on the community.
              > >
              > > The next place to look are the Old Testament books that did not make
              > > the cut in anyone's canon. These are known as the pseudepigrapha.
              > > This parallel collection of Old Testament literature is specifically
              > > of Jewish origin. Many of these widely circulated during New
              > > Testament times. The books of Enoch and the Odes of Solomon were
              > > particularly popular with early Christians. The Ethiopian Orthodox
              > > Church includes 1 Enoch in their Old Testament canon. Charlesworth
              > > has a large two volume english translation. Again, the index is
              > > lacking you you'll need to do the leg work for the references.
              > >
              > > Charlesworth, James H. The Old Testament pseudepigrapha. 2 vols.
              > > Garden City: Doubleday, 1983.
              > >
              > > There are two other introductory volumes on commentaries of the Old
              > > Testament that you may find helpful. Most of the material outlined
              > > in these are post Josephus, but they do a good job of providing the
              > > lay of the land for early Jewish documentary evidence.
              > >
              > > Nadich, Judah. The legends of the rabbis volume 1: Jewish legends of
              > > the second commonwealth. Vol. 1. 2 vols. Northvale, NJ: Jason
              > > Aronson, Inc, 1994.
              > >
              > > Neusner, Jacob. Introduction to Rabbinic Literature. Anchor Bible
              > > Reference Library. New York: Doubleday, 1999.
              > >
              > > Steve Puluka
              > > MA, Theology Duquesne University
              > > Cantor Holy Ghost Church
              > > Carpatho-Rusyn tradition
              > > Mckees Rocks, PA
              > > http://puluka.com
              > >
              >
            • Daniel Buck
              ... As a historical resource, Berossus is useful, but if we are looking for early , Babyloniaca doesn t qualify. As a continuous-text manuscript, the
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 21, 2010
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                Richard Godwin meta@... wrote:

                >>What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian<<
                 
                As a historical resource, Berossus is useful, but if we are looking for 'early', "Babyloniaca" doesn't qualify. As a continuous-text manuscript, the book has been lost since ancient times. All we have are third- or fourth-generation extracts and quotations from a much later date. And allusions to Genesis 1-11 are coloured by the context in which they were quoted. Any verse in the OT itself is much better attested in extant manuscripts.
                 
                Daniel Buck


                From: Richard Godwin <meta@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 5:19:10 PM
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?

                 

                Dave answered this to some extent. I'll add that the DSS manuscripts
                consist of three basic kinds: First, actual Hebrew biblical documents (some
                with different versions), some of which later became canonized, second,
                commentaries on some of these biblical documents, third, sectarian
                documents, some of which made references to biblical documents. So the
                second and third would be what you want, IF these are what you would call
                "external". Certainly the second applies to what you request.

                What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by
                Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian, who either had the template for
                Genesis 1-11 that was used by the Yehud (Judeans) in composing Genesis, or
                is basically the same.

                Richard.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "misterboswell" <misterboswell@...>
                To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:38 AM
                Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to
                any Old Testament scriptures?

                Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS were the
                earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.

                But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed at an
                external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on them or
                whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along the lines of
                what I'm looking for.

                And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if that is the
                earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so sacred for
                so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it are from
                the first century?

                --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > The Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls contain a few verses and dates to ~ 600
                > bc.
                > Â george
                > gfsomsel
                >
                >
                > â?¦ search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Jovial <jovial@...>
                > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 6:56:02 AM
                > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference to
                > any Old Testament scriptures?
                >
                > Â
                > Philo quotes a few verses.
                > Â
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > >From: misterboswell
                > >To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:49 PM
                > >Subject: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference to
                > >any Old Testament scriptures?
                > >
                > >Â
                > >I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference to
                > >any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are some
                > >that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but I'm not
                > >concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external references.
                > >Thank you for your time.
                > >
                > >
                >

                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links

                Richard


              • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                ... This is a correction to to Mr Kashow s statement above. The Charlesworth OTP does *not* include a Scripture index of any kind, in volume 2 or elsewhere.
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 21, 2010
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                  >> The 2 vol. Pseudepigrapha ed. by Charlesworth has an excellent
                  >> Scripture index in the back of volume 2. Perhaps not exhaustive,
                  >> but I wouldn't say 'lacking.'

                  This is a correction to to Mr Kashow's statement above. The
                  Charlesworth OTP does *not* include a Scripture index of any kind, in
                  volume 2 or elsewhere. It does include in volume 2 a subject index
                  with page numbers.

                  I am in fact nearing completion on an exhaustive index of the margin
                  and note citations in the OTP volumes. All references have been
                  checked for accuracy. There are numerous corrections to be made to
                  the citations in the printed volumes (over 60 handwritten pages). The
                  index will be published, to be followed by a concordance to the OTP
                  translations.

                  There is a published Scriptural index to the OTP volumes already in
                  print, but it includes only citations to the books of the Protestant
                  OT canon:
                  Steve Delamarter, _Scripture Index to Charlesworth's The Old Testament
                  Pseudepigrapha_ (Sheffield, 2003).

                  Regards,
                  Kevin P. Edgecomb
                  Berkeley, California
                • Robert Relyea
                  ... I m a little confused at the definition. When Paul was writing, it s not clear he considered his letters as scripture. Philo is probably a little bit
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 21, 2010
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                    On 06/20/2010 09:38 AM, misterboswell wrote:
                    > Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS were the earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.
                    >
                    > But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed at an external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on them or whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along the lines of what I'm looking for.
                    >
                    I'm a little confused at the definition. When Paul was writing, it's not
                    clear he considered his letters as scripture. Philo is probably a little
                    bit earlier than Paul. Certainly their lives overlapped if not their
                    writing.

                    Clement would predate Josepheus, though not Paul or Philo. Of course
                    clement was considered scripture by some early Christians.

                    Several of the dead sea scrolls were not scripture, per se, but
                    certainly quoted from scripture.
                    > And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if that is the earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so sacred for so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it are from the first century?
                    >
                    Because we have very little surviving from that period unless it was
                    scripture. Copying was expensive. If it wasn't buried on a stable dry
                    area, or it wasn't chiseled in stone, it only survived because someone
                    took the time and expense to copy it. Just try to list surviving
                    writings from before the 1st Century A.D./C.E. that weren't scripture.
                    Now take out all the writing that had little or no contact the the
                    Jewish nation or the Jewish people. Almost all the Jewish writing from
                    that peroid falls into someone's cannon, so your basic methodology
                    automatically excludes all surviving writings that would conceivably
                    quote the OT. With the Jewish/Christian split, you finally start getting
                    writings from those familiar with the OT that don't eventually become
                    scripture, and those are your earliest witnesses.

                    bob
                    >
                  • torahman6
                    Pardon me, I just double checked and indeed misspoke. I m working heavily in the Fathers and Pseud. right now and perhaps they blurred together. Best, Rob
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 22, 2010
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                      Pardon me, I just double checked and indeed misspoke. I'm working heavily in the Fathers and Pseud. right now and perhaps they blurred together.

                      Best,

                      Rob

                      --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin P. Edgecomb" <kevin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >> The 2 vol. Pseudepigrapha ed. by Charlesworth has an excellent
                      > >> Scripture index in the back of volume 2. Perhaps not exhaustive,
                      > >> but I wouldn't say 'lacking.'
                      >
                      > This is a correction to to Mr Kashow's statement above. The
                      > Charlesworth OTP does *not* include a Scripture index of any kind, in
                      > volume 2 or elsewhere. It does include in volume 2 a subject index
                      > with page numbers.
                      >
                      > I am in fact nearing completion on an exhaustive index of the margin
                      > and note citations in the OTP volumes. All references have been
                      > checked for accuracy. There are numerous corrections to be made to
                      > the citations in the printed volumes (over 60 handwritten pages). The
                      > index will be published, to be followed by a concordance to the OTP
                      > translations.
                      >
                      > There is a published Scriptural index to the OTP volumes already in
                      > print, but it includes only citations to the books of the Protestant
                      > OT canon:
                      > Steve Delamarter, _Scripture Index to Charlesworth's The Old Testament
                      > Pseudepigrapha_ (Sheffield, 2003).
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Kevin P. Edgecomb
                      > Berkeley, California
                      >
                    • ibnalfadl2003
                      What about the possible allusions to Isaiah 7 and 11 in the IVth Eclogue of Virgil?
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 22, 2010
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                        What about the possible allusions to Isaiah 7 and 11 in the IVth Eclogue of Virgil?





                        --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, Robert Relyea <bob@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 06/20/2010 09:38 AM, misterboswell wrote:
                        > > Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS were the earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.
                        > >
                        > > But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed at an external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on them or whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along the lines of what I'm looking for.
                        > >
                        > I'm a little confused at the definition. When Paul was writing, it's not
                        > clear he considered his letters as scripture. Philo is probably a little
                        > bit earlier than Paul. Certainly their lives overlapped if not their
                        > writing.
                        >
                        > Clement would predate Josepheus, though not Paul or Philo. Of course
                        > clement was considered scripture by some early Christians.
                        >
                        > Several of the dead sea scrolls were not scripture, per se, but
                        > certainly quoted from scripture.
                        > > And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if that is the earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so sacred for so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it are from the first century?
                        > >
                        > Because we have very little surviving from that period unless it was
                        > scripture. Copying was expensive. If it wasn't buried on a stable dry
                        > area, or it wasn't chiseled in stone, it only survived because someone
                        > took the time and expense to copy it. Just try to list surviving
                        > writings from before the 1st Century A.D./C.E. that weren't scripture.
                        > Now take out all the writing that had little or no contact the the
                        > Jewish nation or the Jewish people. Almost all the Jewish writing from
                        > that peroid falls into someone's cannon, so your basic methodology
                        > automatically excludes all surviving writings that would conceivably
                        > quote the OT. With the Jewish/Christian split, you finally start getting
                        > writings from those familiar with the OT that don't eventually become
                        > scripture, and those are your earliest witnesses.
                        >
                        > bob
                        > >
                        >
                      • Richard Godwin
                        True, thank you. But which came first? That s the problem. Richard. ... From: Daniel Buck To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 23, 2010
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                          True, thank you.  But which came first?  That's the problem.
                           
                          Richard.
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 12:16 PM
                          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?

                          Richard Godwin meta@... wrote:

                          >>What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian<<
                           
                          As a historical resource, Berossus is useful, but if we are looking for 'early', "Babyloniaca" doesn't qualify. As a continuous-text manuscript, the book has been lost since ancient times. All we have are third- or fourth-generation extracts and quotations from a much later date. And allusions to Genesis 1-11 are coloured by the context in which they were quoted. Any verse in the OT itself is much better attested in extant manuscripts.
                           
                          Daniel Buck


                          From: Richard Godwin <meta@...>
                          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 5:19:10 PM
                          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?

                           

                          Dave answered this to some extent. I'll add that the DSS manuscripts
                          consist of three basic kinds: First, actual Hebrew biblical documents (some
                          with different versions), some of which later became canonized, second,
                          commentaries on some of these biblical documents, third, sectarian
                          documents, some of which made references to biblical documents. So the
                          second and third would be what you want, IF these are what you would call
                          "external". Certainly the second applies to what you request.

                          What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by
                          Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian, who either had the template for
                          Genesis 1-11 that was used by the Yehud (Judeans) in composing Genesis, or
                          is basically the same.

                          Richard.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "misterboswell" <misterboswell@...>
                          To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:38 AM
                          Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external reference to
                          any Old Testament scriptures?

                          Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS were the
                          earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.

                          But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed at an
                          external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on them or
                          whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along the lines of
                          what I'm looking for.

                          And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if that is the
                          earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so sacred for
                          so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it are from
                          the first century?

                          --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls contain a few verses and dates to ~ 600
                          > bc.
                          > Â george
                          > gfsomsel
                          >
                          >
                          > â?¦ search for truth, hear truth,
                          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          > defend the truth till death.
                          >
                          >
                          > - Jan Hus
                          > _________
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Jovial <jovial@...>
                          > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 6:56:02 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference to
                          > any Old Testament scriptures?
                          >
                          > Â
                          > Philo quotes a few verses.
                          > Â
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > >From: misterboswell
                          > >To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                          > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:49 PM
                          > >Subject: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external reference to
                          > >any Old Testament scriptures?
                          > >
                          > >Â
                          > >I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and reference to
                          > >any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there are some
                          > >that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but I'm not
                          > >concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external references.
                          > >Thank you for your time.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >

                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links

                          Richard


                          Richard
                        • A. Dirkzwager
                          Dear all, It is surely not the first quotation from the Old Testament, but for the sake of completeness I think it is interesting to see a reference to the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 24, 2010
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                            Dear all,

                            It is surely not the first quotation from the Old Testament, but for the
                            sake of completeness I think it is interesting to see a reference to the
                            beginning of Genesis in 'On the Sublime' (peri hupsous), a Greek
                            rhetorical treaty ascribed to Longinus:
                            **Similarly, the legislator of the Jews, no ordinary man, having formed
                            and expressed a worthy conception of the might of the Godhead, writes at
                            the very beginning of his Laws, 'God said'--what? 'Let there be light,
                            and there was light; let there be land, and there was land'. (Peri
                            hupsous 9.9, translation W. Rhys Roberts)

                            It is a pity that we don't know for sure who was the author. And
                            consequently we don't know the time for sure.
                            I think whoever would like to know more can consult the internet.

                            Arie

                            A. Dirkzwager
                            Hoeselt, Belgium


                            Richard Godwin schreef:
                            >
                            >
                            > 
                            >
                            > True, thank you. But which came first? That's the problem.
                            >
                            > Richard.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > *From:* Daniel Buck <mailto:bucksburg@...>
                            > *To:* textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                            > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:16 PM
                            > *Subject:* Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest
                            > external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?
                            >
                            > Richard Godwin meta@... <mailto:meta@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >>What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca"
                            > written by Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian<<
                            >
                            > As a historical resource, Berossus is useful, but if we are
                            > looking for 'early', "Babyloniaca" doesn't qualify. As a
                            > continuous-text manuscript, the book has been lost since ancient
                            > times. All we have are third- or fourth-generation extracts and
                            > quotations from a much later date. And allusions to Genesis 1-11
                            > are coloured by the context in which they were quoted. Any verse
                            > in the OT itself is much better attested in extant manuscripts.
                            >
                            > Daniel Buck
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > *From:* Richard Godwin <meta@...>
                            > *To:* textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            > *Sent:* Sun, June 20, 2010 5:19:10 PM
                            > *Subject:* Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest
                            > external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Dave answered this to some extent. I'll add that the DSS manuscripts
                            > consist of three basic kinds: First, actual Hebrew biblical
                            > documents (some
                            > with different versions), some of which later became canonized,
                            > second,
                            > commentaries on some of these biblical documents, third, sectarian
                            > documents, some of which made references to biblical documents. So
                            > the
                            > second and third would be what you want, IF these are what you
                            > would call
                            > "external". Certainly the second applies to what you request.
                            >
                            > What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by
                            > Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian, who either had the
                            > template for
                            > Genesis 1-11 that was used by the Yehud (Judeans) in composing
                            > Genesis, or
                            > is basically the same.
                            >
                            > Richard.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "misterboswell" <misterboswell@...
                            > <mailto:misterboswell%40yahoo.com>>
                            > To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:38 AM
                            > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external
                            > reference to
                            > any Old Testament scriptures?
                            >
                            > Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS
                            > were the
                            > earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.
                            >
                            > But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed
                            > at an
                            > external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on
                            > them or
                            > whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along
                            > the lines of
                            > what I'm looking for.
                            >
                            > And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if
                            > that is the
                            > earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so
                            > sacred for
                            > so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it
                            > are from
                            > the first century?
                            >
                            > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>, George F Somsel
                            > <gfsomsel@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > The Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls contain a few verses and dates
                            > to ~ 600
                            > > bc.
                            > > Â george
                            > > gfsomsel
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > â?¦ search for truth, hear truth,
                            > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                            > > defend the truth till death.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > - Jan Hus
                            > > _________
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > > From: Jovial <jovial@...>
                            > > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 6:56:02 AM
                            > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external
                            > reference to
                            > > any Old Testament scriptures?
                            > >
                            > > Â
                            > > Philo quotes a few verses.
                            > > Â
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > >From: misterboswell
                            > > >To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                            > > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:49 PM
                            > > >Subject: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external
                            > reference to
                            > > >any Old Testament scriptures?
                            > > >
                            > > >Â
                            > > >I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and
                            > reference to
                            > > >any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there
                            > are some
                            > > >that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but
                            > I'm not
                            > > >concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external references.
                            > > >Thank you for your time.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > Richard
                            >
                            >
                            > Richard
                            >
                          • Frank Polak
                            Dear All, But in spite of Eduard Norden we still face the question whether this testimonium is an authentic part of Peri Hupsous at some stage of its
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 25, 2010
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                              Dear All,

                              But in spite of Eduard Norden we still face the question whether this testimonium is
                              an authentic part of Peri Hupsous at some stage of its composition, or a Christian
                              interpolation. The context may indicate that the latter possibility still is to be preferred.
                              Moreover, the quote does not fit the LXX, and might, in my view, represent a Greek retroversion
                              of a Vetus Latina reading.

                              Frank Polak
                              Tel Aviv University

                              On 24/06/2010, at 22:17, A. Dirkzwager wrote:

                              Dear all,

                              It is surely not the first quotation from the Old Testament, but for the 
                              sake of completeness I think it is interesting to see a reference to the 
                              beginning of Genesis in 'On the Sublime' (peri hupsous), a Greek 
                              rhetorical treaty ascribed to Longinus:
                              **Similarly, the legislator of the Jews, no ordinary man, having formed 
                              and expressed a worthy conception of the might of the Godhead, writes at 
                              the very beginning of his Laws, 'God said'--what? 'Let there be light, 
                              and there was light; let there be land, and there was land'. (Peri 
                              hupsous 9.9, translation W. Rhys Roberts)

                              It is a pity that we don't know for sure who was the author. And 
                              consequently we don't know the time for sure.
                              I think whoever would like to know more can consult the internet.

                              Arie

                              A. Dirkzwager
                              Hoeselt, Belgium

                              Richard Godwin schreef:
                              > 
                              >
                              > 
                              >
                              > True, thank you. But which came first? That's the problem.
                              > 
                              > Richard.
                              > 
                              > 
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > *From:* Daniel Buck <mailto:bucksburg@...>
                              > *To:* textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com>
                              > *Sent:* Monday, June 21, 2010 12:16 PM
                              > *Subject:* Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest
                              > external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?
                              >
                              > Richard Godwin meta@... <mailto:meta@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >>What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca"
                              > written by Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian<<
                              > 
                              > As a historical resource, Berossus is useful, but if we are
                              > looking for 'early', "Babyloniaca" doesn't qualify. As a
                              > continuous-text manuscript, the book has been lost since ancient
                              > times. All we have are third- or fourth-generation extracts and
                              > quotations from a much later date. And allusions to Genesis 1-11
                              > are coloured by the context in which they were quoted. Any verse
                              > in the OT itself is much better attested in extant manuscripts.
                              > 
                              > Daniel Buck
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              > *From:* Richard Godwin <meta@...>
                              > *To:* textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                              > *Sent:* Sun, June 20, 2010 5:19:10 PM
                              > *Subject:* Re: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest
                              > external reference to any Old Testament scriptures?
                              >
                              > 
                              >
                              > Dave answered this to some extent. I'll add that the DSS manuscripts
                              > consist of three basic kinds: First, actual Hebrew biblical
                              > documents (some
                              > with different versions), some of which later became canonized,
                              > second,
                              > commentaries on some of these biblical documents, third, sectarian
                              > documents, some of which made references to biblical documents. So
                              > the
                              > second and third would be what you want, IF these are what you
                              > would call
                              > "external". Certainly the second applies to what you request.
                              >
                              > What might be more controversial is the book "Babyloniaca" written by
                              > Berossus (278 BCE), a Persian historian, who either had the
                              > template for
                              > Genesis 1-11 that was used by the Yehud (Judeans) in composing
                              > Genesis, or
                              > is basically the same.
                              >
                              > Richard.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "misterboswell" <misterboswell@...
                              > <mailto:misterboswell%40yahoo.com>>
                              > To: <textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>>
                              > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 9:38 AM
                              > Subject: [textualcriticism] Re: What is the earliest external
                              > reference to
                              > any Old Testament scriptures?
                              >
                              > Thank you for the information George. I had always heard the DSS
                              > were the
                              > earliest texts of the Old Testament scriptures. Interesting.
                              >
                              > But, that is the actual scripture, my question was more directed
                              > at an
                              > external reference to these scriptures, like someone commenting on
                              > them or
                              > whatever. Like the folks who mentioned Philo, that's more along
                              > the lines of
                              > what I'm looking for.
                              >
                              > And thank you to the folks who posted Philo as an answer. But if
                              > that is the
                              > earliest, it... it just puzzles me that the writings were held so
                              > sacred for
                              > so many centuries, and yet the earliest surviving references to it
                              > are from
                              > the first century?
                              >
                              > --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>, George F Somsel
                              > <gfsomsel@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > The Ketef Hinnom silver scrolls contain a few verses and dates
                              > to ~ 600
                              > > bc.
                              > > Â george
                              > > gfsomsel
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > â?¦ search for truth, hear truth,
                              > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              > > defend the truth till death.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > - Jan Hus
                              > > _________
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > > From: Jovial <jovial@...>
                              > > To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:textualcriticism%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Sun, June 20, 2010 6:56:02 AM
                              > > Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external
                              > reference to
                              > > any Old Testament scriptures?
                              > >
                              > > Â
                              > > Philo quotes a few verses.
                              > > Â
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > >From: misterboswell
                              > > >To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                              > > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 9:49 PM
                              > > >Subject: [textualcriticism] What is the earliest external
                              > reference to
                              > > >any Old Testament scriptures?
                              > > >
                              > > >Â
                              > > >I'm just google searching, and having trouble finding and
                              > reference to
                              > > >any Old Testament scriptures prior to Jospehus. Surely there
                              > are some
                              > > >that are earlier, right? I know that the DSS are earlier, but
                              > I'm not
                              > > >concerned with manuscripts, I'm concerned with external references.
                              > > >Thank you for your time.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              > Richard
                              >
                              >
                              > Richard
                              > 


                            • Daniel Buck
                              Aleph reads: . . . και εμετρηϲεν το χι. λοϲ αυτηϲ εκατο μδ πηχεων μετρο ανου ο εϲτιν αγγε λου . . .
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 30, 2010
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                                Aleph reads:

                                . . . και 

                                εμετρηϲεν το χι.

                                λοϲ αυτηϲ εκατο 

                                μδ πηχεων μετρο 

                                ανου ο εϲτιν αγγε

                                λου . . .

                                 . . . KAI EMETRHSEN TO CI.LOS AUTHS EKATo_ _MD_ PHCEWN MeTRo _ANOU_ O ESTIN AGGeLOU . . .

                                image: 
                                http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit Query&book=59&chapter=21&lid=en&side=r&verse=18&zoomSlider=0#59-20-10-24

                                What do you think the scribe intended to mean by substituting the singular masculine nominative for 'fodder' for the single neuter accusative for 'wall'?

                                Juan Hernandez has recently written on this. Did Maurice Robinson?

                                Daniel Buck

                              • Daniel Buck
                                An interesting find at Pompeii shows a knowledge of Solomon s wisdom: http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/solomon-socrates-and-aristotle.asp Daniel Buck PS My
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 30, 2010
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                                  An interesting find at Pompeii shows a knowledge of Solomon's wisdom:


                                  Daniel Buck

                                  PS My previous post was supposed to be titled CILOS for TEICOS in Rev. 21:17.

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