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RE: [textualcriticism] Diatessaron says " I am the tree" instead of "I am the vine"?

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  • Wieland Willker
    The Arabic Diatessaron reads vine . The verse is not commented upon in Ephrem. Best wishes     Wieland       
    Message 1 of 4 , May 14, 2010
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      The Arabic Diatessaron reads "vine".
      The verse is not commented upon in Ephrem.


      Best wishes
          Wieland
             <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical Commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
    • sarban@supanet.com
      ... The basis for this claim is a Persian Harmony of the Gospels edited and translated into Italian by G Messina in 1951 as Diatessaron Persiano . John 15:1
      Message 2 of 4 , May 15, 2010
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        > I have come across several websites and books on Google Books that assert
        > that the Diatessaron renders its parallel to John 15:1 as "I am the tree
        > of the fruit of the truth". But all of the English translations I've found
        > all say "I am the vine...". None of these websites I have found cite their
        > source for this claim. So do any of you folks here know of any manuscript
        > of the Diatessaron that says "I am the tree..." as this claim asserts? And
        > can you possibly provide any links to translations or pics that I can
        > download, etc.?
        > Thank you very much for your time.
        >
        >

        The basis for this claim is a Persian Harmony of the Gospels edited and
        translated into Italian by G Messina in 1951 as "Diatessaron Persiano".
        John 15:1 is translated by Messina as "Io sono l'albero del frutto della
        verita" which is equivalent to "I am the tree of the fruit of truth".

        Although this Persian Harmony is certainly a translation of an earlier
        Syriac Harmony the relation of this Harmony to that of Tatian is unclear.
        The order of passages in this Harmony is different from that of Tatian's
        Diatessaron but this Harmony undoubtedly contains many specific readings
        going back to Tatian.

        Evidence from Syriac writers seems to indicate that Tatian's Diatessaron
        in John 15:1 read "I am the true Vineyard" or something similar.

        See for a discussion (slightly out of date):
        http://www.archive.org/stream/sephraimsquotati00burkuoft#page/52/mode/2up
        http://tinyurl.com/3acgvr5

        Hope this helps.

        Andrew Criddle

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      • schmuel
        Hi Folks, The late William Lawrence Petersen addressed this, the references is to a Persian version of the Diatessoran. Tatian s Diatessaron: its creation,
        Message 3 of 4 , May 15, 2010
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          Hi Folks,

          The late William Lawrence Petersen  addressed this, the references is to a Persian version of the Diatessoran.

          Tatian's Diatessaron: its creation, dissemination, significance, and history ...
          William Lawrence Petersen
          http://books.google.com/books?id=E_NufgoxSasC&pg=PA82
           At John 15:1 the Persian Harmony changes "I am the true vine'' to "I am the tree of the fruit of truth," eschewing oenophile
          imagery.

          And I think it is fair to say that since the Persian is 2nd or 3rd generation translational-derivative, and relatively minor in the transmissional schema, this would normally get little notice.  There is a lot of discussion within that book by Petersen about the enigmatic nature with many unique features of the Persian haromny (one manuscript, written up in the 20th century by Giuseppe Messina in 1943 though known since the 1700s, main discussion begins on p. 259).

          Shalom,
          Steven Avery
          Queens, NY

          misterboswell
          I have come across several websites and books on Google Books that assert that the Diatessaron renders its parallel to John 15:1 as "I am the tree of the fruit of the truth". But all of the English translations I've found all say "I am the vine...". None of these websites I have found cite their source for this claim. So do any of you folks here know of any manuscript of the Diatessaron that says "I am the tree..." as this claim asserts?
        • Heterodoxus
          misterboswell, A translator s note at John 15:1 in the NET Bible explains the rendering true vine thusly: Ezek 17:5-10 contains vine imagery which refers to
          Message 4 of 4 , May 15, 2010
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            misterboswell,

            A translator's note at John 15:1 in the NET Bible explains the rendering "true vine" thusly:

            "Ezek 17:5-10 contains vine imagery which refers to a king of the house of David, Zedekiah, who was set up as king in Judah by Nebuchadnezzar. Zedekiah allied himself to Egypt and broke his covenant with Nebuchadnezzar (and therefore also with God), which would ultimately result in his downfall (17:20-21). Ezek 17:22-24 then describes the planting of a cedar sprig which grows into a lofty tree, a figurative description of Messiah. But it is significant that Messiah himself is not described in Ezek 17 as a vine, but as a cedar tree. The vine imagery here applies to Zedekiah’s disobedience. Jesus’ description of himself as the true vine in John 15:1 ff. is to be seen against this background, but it differs significantly from the imagery surveyed above. It represents new imagery which differs significantly from OT concepts; it appears to be original with Jesus."


            From: misterboswell <misterboswell@...>
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 11:11:32 PM
            Subject: [textualcriticism] Diatessaron says " I am the tree" instead of "I am the vine"?

             

            I have come across several websites and books on Google Books that assert that the Diatessaron renders its parallel to John 15:1 as "I am the tree of the fruit of the truth". But all of the English translations I've found all say "I am the vine...". None of these websites I have found cite their source for this claim. So do any of you folks here know of any manuscript of the Diatessaron that says "I am the tree..." as this claim asserts? And can you possibly provide any links to translations or pics that I can download, etc.?
            Thank you very much for your time.


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