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RE: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

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  • Wieland Willker
    ... Ok, I looked at this. It reads: TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW. We don t know what Ioudaikon refers to, probably a Gospel
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
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      > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).

      Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
      TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

      We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
      similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
      There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
      Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
      weather, the following note appears:

      TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
      OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

      Best wishes
          Wieland
             <><
      ------------------------------------------------
      Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
      Textcritical Commentary:
      http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
    • Heterodoxus
      In re Matt. 5:22, Wieland wrote: We don t know what Ioudaikon refers to, probably a Gospel similar to Matthew in Aramaic. Or perhaps it s a general
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        In re Matt. 5:22, Wieland wrote: "We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel similar to Matthew in Aramaic."
        Or perhaps it's a general reference to the "Antithesis" to Jewish laws cited in Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-34, 38-39, 43-44? Just a thought.


        From: Wieland Willker <wie@...>
        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 3:27:47 AM
        Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

         

        > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).

        Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
        TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

        We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
        similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
        There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
        Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
        weather, the following note appears:

        TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
        OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

        Best wishes
            Wieland
               <><
        ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
        Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
        Textcritical Commentary:
        http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html


      • George F Somsel
        Jerome seems to have claimed to have translated the Gospel according to the Hebrews (or was it a Hebrew version of Matthew which was somewhat different?). 
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
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          Jerome seems to have claimed to have translated the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (or was it a Hebrew version of Matthew which was somewhat different?).  It may be that he only translated a part of it.  
           

          There is only one place where Jerome is usually seen to be claiming that he had personal contact with members of the Nazarene sect. In de viris illustribus 3 we read: "The Hebrew itself [of the original Gospel of Matthew] has been preserved until the present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected. From the Nazarenes who use this book in Beroea, a city in Syria, I also received the opportunity to copy it." For the moment let us deal only with the matter of his personal contact with the sect. If Jerome did make such contact, the only possible time, as noted above, could have been during the years 372–380, when he was in Antioch and in the desert near Beroea (375–377 being the most likely time). But Jerome, in this unique passage, does not specifically say that he had had intercourse with the Nazarene sect. That, indeed, may have been the impression he wanted to give, but all he in fact says is that they made it possible for him to copy their Hebrew gospel. We know that he later was in the habit of borrowing Hebrew manuscripts from synagogues, and that he did this indirectly, not actually taking or returning them in person." For a man committed to live the ascetic life in the desert, it must be considered likely that a loaned copy of the Hebrew gospel was brought to him and not borrowed personally. This passage, then, should not be taken alone as proof that Jerome was personally acquainted with the Nazarenes as a sect. But no other notice corroborates the supposition.


           

          Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century. Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.

           

           

          george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________



          From: Heterodoxus <heterodoxus@...>
          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 8:19:32 AM
          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

           

          In re Matt. 5:22, Wieland wrote: "We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel similar to Matthew in Aramaic."
          Or perhaps it's a general reference to the "Antithesis" to Jewish laws cited in Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-34, 38-39, 43-44? Just a thought.


          From: Wieland Willker <wie@uni-bremen. de>
          To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 3:27:47 AM
          Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

           

          > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).

          Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
          TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

          We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
          similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
          There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
          Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
          weather, the following note appears:

          TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
          OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

          Best wishes
              Wieland
                 <><
          ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
          Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/%7Ewie
          Textcritical Commentary:
          http://www.uni-bremen.de/%7Ewie/TCG/index.html



        • Larry Swain
          I rather agree with Pritz thrust, but don t think he goes quite far enough. First, though, let me say that Jerome s latter years were spent outside Bethlehem,
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
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            I rather agree with Pritz' thrust, but don't think he goes quite far enough.

            First, though, let me say that Jerome's latter years were spent outside Bethlehem, and unlike later monastic practice, he was in no way inhibited from travel.  Caesarea is not a far journey from Bethlehem and *if* he had knowledge of the sect, it could just as easily derived from then as well.  In 385, he went back to Antioch and with friends traveled in Palestine visiting holy sites and then to Alexandria.  From 388 onwards, he lived outside Bethlehem.  De Viris if I recall was written in the early 390s.

            Pritz I think correct in saying that Jerome probably had no direct contact himself but went through intermediaries.  But it is his assumption, and that of his contemporaries, that the Nazarenes text was actually the same as that that supposedly resided in Caesarea, and that both were in fact the original of Matthew...based in part on what Papias said about Matthew in the second century.

            Jerome says he was given opportunity to copy it, but I don't know of anywhere where he claims or states that he translated it into Latin....his Gospels in the Vulgate had already been done, so the Vulgate Matthew is *NOT* a translation of the Hebrew Matthew.

            The "IOUDAIKW" problem is similar to that in Papias: does it refer to Hebrew? Aramaic? Jewish dialect of Greek?  Or as heterodoxus below seems to suggest, and as George Kennedy argued for Papias, does it refer to a "in a Jewish fashion" referring to the antithesis method of rhetoric?  Those are the possibilities, and everyone will no doubt have an opinion, but so far as I know, the evidence doesn't allow a firm conclusion.

            Larry Swain
            Independent Scholar

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "George F Somsel"
            To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM
            Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:42:30 -0700 (PDT)

             

            Jerome seems to have claimed to have translated the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (or was it a Hebrew version of Matthew which was somewhat different?).  It may be that he only translated a part of it.  
             

            There is only one place where Jerome is usually seen to be claiming that he had personal contact with members of the Nazarene sect. In de viris illustribus 3 we read: "The Hebrew itself [of the original Gospel of Matthew] has been preserved until the present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected. From the Nazarenes who use this book in Beroea, a city in Syria, I also received the opportunity to copy it." For the moment let us deal only with the matter of his personal contact with the sect. If Jerome did make such contact, the only possible time, as noted above, could have been during the years 372–380, when he was in Antioch and in the desert near Beroea (375–377 being the most likely time). But Jerome, in this unique passage, does not specifically say that he had had intercourse with the Nazarene sect. That, indeed, may have been the impression he wanted to give, but all he in fact says is that they made it possible for him to copy their Hebrew gospel. We know that he later was in the habit of borrowing Hebrew manuscripts from synagogues, and that he did this indirectly, not actually taking or returning them in person." For a man committed to live the ascetic life in the desert, it must be considered likely that a loaned copy of the Hebrew gospel was brought to him and not borrowed personally. This passage, then, should not be taken alone as proof that Jerome was personally acquainted with the Nazarenes as a sect. But no other notice corroborates the supposition.


             

            Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century. Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.

             

             

            george
            gfsomsel


            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________



            From: Heterodoxus <heterodoxus@ yahoo.com>
            To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 8:19:32 AM
            Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

             

            In re Matt. 5:22, Wieland wrote: "We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel similar to Matthew in Aramaic."
            Or perhaps it's a general reference to the "Antithesis" to Jewish laws cited in Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-34, 38-39, 43-44? Just a thought.


            From: Wieland Willker <wie@uni-bremen. de>
            To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
            Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 3:27:47 AM
            Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

             

            > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).

            Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
            TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

            We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
            similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
            There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
            Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
            weather, the following note appears:

            TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
            OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

            Best wishes
                Wieland
                   <><
            ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
            Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
            http://www.uni- bremen.de/ %7Ewie
            Textcritical Commentary:
            http://www.uni- bremen.de/ %7Ewie/TCG/ index.html




            --

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            Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
            Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com


            Powered by Outblaze
          • TeunisV
            The Ioudaikon instances are recorded in Huck-Greeven in a Second Apparatus (p. XXXVII), see also p. 285 (Evangelium Nazaraeorum). Compare Aland s Synopsis,
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
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              The Ioudaikon instances are recorded in Huck-Greeven in a Second Apparatus (p. XXXVII), see also p. 285 (Evangelium Nazaraeorum). Compare Aland's Synopsis, Index IV. Apocrypha, >>Judaikon<< (in my old 3rd ed., 1965, on p. 585). Citations from 4(1), 273 (1), 566 (4), 899 (3), 1424 (12).
              Also: A. de Santos Otero, Los Evanglios Apocrifos, 1955, p. 49, 50: the fragments 42-54 from Evangelio de los Hebreaos.

              Teunis van Lopik,
              Leidschendam, The Netherlands

              --- In textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com, "Wieland Willker" <wie@...> wrote:
              >
              > > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).
              >
              > Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
              > TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.
              >
              > We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
              > similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
              > There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
              > Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
              > weather, the following note appears:
              >
              > TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
              > OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.
              >
              > Best wishes
              >     Wieland
              >        <><
              > ------------------------------------------------
              > Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
              > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie
              > Textcritical Commentary:
              > http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/index.html
              >
            • George F Somsel
              While Jerome makes no explicit claim to have known the Nazarene sect personally, he does, however, make two other claims which have frequently been called into
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
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                While Jerome makes no explicit claim to have known the Nazarene sect personally, he does, however, make two other claims which have frequently been called into question: he copied the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GH), "which is read by the Nazarenes," and he translated it into both Greek and Latin. The parameters of this complicated problem and the limitations of any possible solutions have been well laid down by Vielhauer.19 His general conclusions were, first, that Jerome was thinking of only one work when he spoke of GH and its various other designations; that this gospel was to be found in Caesarea and was probably the same as the one used by the Nazarenes; and lastly, that Jerome never translated all the gospel. To Vielhauer’s article we would add some observations and suggestions.

                 

                Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century, p 51.  Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.


                 
                george
                gfsomsel


                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________



                From: Larry Swain <theswain@...>
                To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 12:29:55 PM
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                 

                I rather agree with Pritz' thrust, but don't think he goes quite far enough.

                First, though, let me say that Jerome's latter years were spent outside Bethlehem, and unlike later monastic practice, he was in no way inhibited from travel.  Caesarea is not a far journey from Bethlehem and *if* he had knowledge of the sect, it could just as easily derived from then as well.  In 385, he went back to Antioch and with friends traveled in Palestine visiting holy sites and then to Alexandria.  From 388 onwards, he lived outside Bethlehem.  De Viris if I recall was written in the early 390s.

                Pritz I think correct in saying that Jerome probably had no direct contact himself but went through intermediaries.  But it is his assumption, and that of his contemporaries, that the Nazarenes text was actually the same as that that supposedly resided in Caesarea, and that both were in fact the original of Matthew...based in part on what Papias said about Matthew in the second century.

                Jerome says he was given opportunity to copy it, but I don't know of anywhere where he claims or states that he translated it into Latin....his Gospels in the Vulgate had already been done, so the Vulgate Matthew is *NOT* a translation of the Hebrew Matthew.

                The "IOUDAIKW" problem is similar to that in Papias: does it refer to Hebrew? Aramaic? Jewish dialect of Greek?  Or as heterodoxus below seems to suggest, and as George Kennedy argued for Papias, does it refer to a "in a Jewish fashion" referring to the antithesis method of rhetoric?  Those are the possibilities, and everyone will no doubt have an opinion, but so far as I know, the evidence doesn't allow a firm conclusion.

                Larry Swain
                Independent Scholar

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "George F Somsel"
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM
                Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:42:30 -0700 (PDT)

                 

                Jerome seems to have claimed to have translated the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (or was it a Hebrew version of Matthew which was somewhat different?).  It may be that he only translated a part of it.  
                 

                There is only one place where Jerome is usually seen to be claiming that he had personal contact with members of the Nazarene sect. In de viris illustribus 3 we read: "The Hebrew itself [of the original Gospel of Matthew] has been preserved until the present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected. From the Nazarenes who use this book in Beroea, a city in Syria, I also received the opportunity to copy it." For the moment let us deal only with the matter of his personal contact with the sect. If Jerome did make such contact, the only possible time, as noted above, could have been during the years 372–380, when he was in Antioch and in the desert near Beroea (375–377 being the most likely time). But Jerome, in this unique passage, does not specifically say that he had had intercourse with the Nazarene sect. That, indeed, may have been the impression he wanted to give, but all he in fact says is that they made it possible for him to copy their Hebrew gospel. We know that he later was in the habit of borrowing Hebrew manuscripts from synagogues, and that he did this indirectly, not actually taking or returning them in person." For a man committed to live the ascetic life in the desert, it must be considered likely that a loaned copy of the Hebrew gospel was brought to him and not borrowed personally. This passage, then, should not be taken alone as proof that Jerome was personally acquainted with the Nazarenes as a sect. But no other notice corroborates the supposition.


                 

                Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century. Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.

                 

                 

                george
                gfsomsel


                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________



                From: Heterodoxus <heterodoxus@ yahoo.com>
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 8:19:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                 

                In re Matt. 5:22, Wieland wrote: "We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel similar to Matthew in Aramaic."
                Or perhaps it's a general reference to the "Antithesis" to Jewish laws cited in Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-34, 38-39, 43-44? Just a thought.


                From: Wieland Willker <wie@uni-bremen. de>
                To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 3:27:47 AM
                Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                 

                > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).

                Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
                TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

                We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
                similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
                There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
                Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
                weather, the following note appears:

                TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
                OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

                Best wishes
                    Wieland
                       <><
                ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
                Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ %7Ewie
                Textcritical Commentary:
                http://www.uni- bremen.de/ %7Ewie/TCG/ index.html




                --

                ____________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera. com


                Powered by Outblaze

              • Jovial
                There are places where some MSS read in the IOUDAIKW it says...., and Jerome makes a similar comment but says In the Hebrew it says... So it is not
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 1, 2010
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                  There are places where some MSS read "in the IOUDAIKW" it says...., and Jerome makes a similar comment but says "In the Hebrew it says..."  So it is not exactly a big stretch of conclusion to ascertain that the "IOUDAIKW" was the Hebrew version, not a Jewish Greek or Aramaic version.  I can't remember exact ones off the top of my head, but I have come across that comparison before.
                   
                  As for Jerome's level of personal contact, I don't think any of us know how many Jewish believers lived in Rome or how many he interactived with on any kind of regular basis.  That's totally conjecture.  But we do know that he had some contact with at least one Jewish believer because Jerome sent for a man from Tiberias to help him translate the meaning of various Hebrew names who happened to be a Jew.
                   
                  Jerome had said in his commentary on Matt. 12:13 that he had translated the Gospel according to the Hebrew into Latin.  But that was a separate publication from the Vulgate, and one we no longer have any copies of.  It's pretty much conjecture to assess whether he did anything "in person", but  the simple fact is, what does it matter?
                   
                  Joe
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 1:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                   

                  I rather agree with Pritz' thrust, but don't think he goes quite far enough.

                  First, though, let me say that Jerome's latter years were spent outside Bethlehem, and unlike later monastic practice, he was in no way inhibited from travel.  Caesarea is not a far journey from Bethlehem and *if* he had knowledge of the sect, it could just as easily derived from then as well.  In 385, he went back to Antioch and with friends traveled in Palestine visiting holy sites and then to Alexandria.  From 388 onwards, he lived outside Bethlehem.  De Viris if I recall was written in the early 390s.

                  Pritz I think correct in saying that Jerome probably had no direct contact himself but went through intermediaries.  But it is his assumption, and that of his contemporaries, that the Nazarenes text was actually the same as that that supposedly resided in Caesarea, and that both were in fact the original of Matthew...based in part on what Papias said about Matthew in the second century.

                  Jerome says he was given opportunity to copy it, but I don't know of anywhere where he claims or states that he translated it into Latin....his Gospels in the Vulgate had already been done, so the Vulgate Matthew is *NOT* a translation of the Hebrew Matthew.

                  The "IOUDAIKW" problem is similar to that in Papias: does it refer to Hebrew? Aramaic? Jewish dialect of Greek?  Or as heterodoxus below seems to suggest, and as George Kennedy argued for Papias, does it refer to a "in a Jewish fashion" referring to the antithesis method of rhetoric?  Those are the possibilities, and everyone will no doubt have an opinion, but so far as I know, the evidence doesn't allow a firm conclusion.

                  Larry Swain
                  Independent Scholar

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "George F Somsel"
                  To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM
                  Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:42:30 -0700 (PDT)

                   

                  Jerome seems to have claimed to have translated the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (or was it a Hebrew version of Matthew which was somewhat different?).  It may be that he only translated a part of it.  
                   

                  There is only one place where Jerome is usually seen to be claiming that he had personal contact with members of the Nazarene sect. In de viris illustribus 3 we read: "The Hebrew itself [of the original Gospel of Matthew] has been preserved until the present day in the library of Caesarea, which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected. From the Nazarenes who use this book in Beroea, a city in Syria, I also received the opportunity to copy it." For the moment let us deal only with the matter of his personal contact with the sect. If Jerome did make such contact, the only possible time, as noted above, could have been during the years 372–380, when he was in Antioch and in the desert near Beroea (375–377 being the most likely time). But Jerome, in this unique passage, does not specifically say that he had had intercourse with the Nazarene sect. That, indeed, may have been the impression he wanted to give, but all he in fact says is that they made it possible for him to copy their Hebrew gospel. We know that he later was in the habit of borrowing Hebrew manuscripts from synagogues, and that he did this indirectly, not actually taking or returning them in person." For a man committed to live the ascetic life in the desert, it must be considered likely that a loaned copy of the Hebrew gospel was brought to him and not borrowed personally. This passage, then, should not be taken alone as proof that Jerome was personally acquainted with the Nazarenes as a sect. But no other notice corroborates the supposition.


                   

                  Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century. Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.

                   

                   

                  george
                  gfsomsel


                  … search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.


                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



                  From: Heterodoxus <heterodoxus@ yahoo.com>
                  To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 8:19:32 AM
                  Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                   

                  In re Matt. 5:22, Wieland wrote: "We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel similar to Matthew in Aramaic."
                  Or perhaps it's a general reference to the "Antithesis" to Jewish laws cited in Matt. 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-34, 38-39, 43-44? Just a thought.


                  From: Wieland Willker <wie@uni-bremen. de>
                  To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 3:27:47 AM
                  Subject: RE: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                   

                  > [1424:]On folio 12a there is a note on EIKH (Mat 5:22).

                  Ok, I looked at this. It reads:
                  TO EIKH EN TISIN ANTIGRAFOIS OU KEITAI OUDE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

                  We don't know what "Ioudaikon" refers to, probably a Gospel
                  similar to Matthew in Aramaic.
                  There are more of these marginal comments referring to "the
                  Ioudaikon". E.g. at 16:2-3, the verses about observing the
                  weather, the following note appears:

                  TA SESHMEIOMENA DIA TOU ASTERISKOU EN hETEROIS OUK EMFERETAI
                  OUTE EN TW IOUDAIKW.

                  Best wishes
                      Wieland
                         <><
                  ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
                  Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
                  http://www.uni- bremen.de/ %7Ewie
                  Textcritical Commentary:
                  http://www.uni- bremen.de/ %7Ewie/TCG/ index.html




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                • Larry Swain
                  ... Since IOUDAIKOS means Jewish , when referring to language, it simply means Jewish language . It isn t a far stretch to posit it as Hebrew. Nor is it a
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 2, 2010
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                    Jovial wrote:
                    >>There are places where some MSS read "in the IOUDAIKW" it says...., and Jerome makes a similar comment but says "In the Hebrew it says..."  So it is not exactly a big stretch of conclusion to ascertain that the "IOUDAIKW" was the Hebrew version, not a Jewish Greek or Aramaic version.  I can't remember exact ones off the top of my head, but I have come across that comparison before.<<

                    Since IOUDAIKOS means "Jewish", when referring to language, it simply means "Jewish language". It isn't a far stretch to posit it as Hebrew. Nor is it a far stretch to posit it as Aramaic, and so far as I know, the ancient authors don't differentiate these languages yet...perhaps by the time of Jerome, but not earlier. Nor is it a far stretch to posit it as "in Jewish dialect." Hence, the problem. Nor can be automatically assumed that each author uses the term in the same way, so for Jerome it may be Hebrew, but for Papias, Aramaic etc.

                    Jovial continues:
                    >>As for Jerome's level of personal contact, I don't think any of us know how many Jewish believers lived in Rome or how many he interactived with on any kind of regular basis. That's totally conjecture.<<

                    Sure, except that Jerome when referring to the Nazarenes and Ebionites doesn't mention Rome in connection with them, but rather modern Aleppo and the East....and so far as I recall (always open to correction) none of his contemporaries mention these groups being in Rome either. They could have been there in the fourth century, but unless there's some evidence we're missing, there doesn't seem to be much support for maintaining that Jerome encountered them there.

                    <snip>
                    Jovial remarked:
                    >>Jerome had said in his commentary on Matt. 12:13 that he had translated the Gospel according to the Hebrew into Latin.  But that was a separate publication from the Vulgate, and one we no longer have any copies of.<<

                    Thanks for the reminder; I had completely forgotten about that reference. I went and looked this up and what the text says is:

                    In Evangelio quae utuntur Nazareni et Ebionitae quod nuper in Graecam de Hebraeo sermone transtulimus et quod vocatur a plerisque Matthaei authenticum.....

                    I. E. he does say he translated it into GREEK. Many reject this, some finding that his citations seem mostly to come from previous writers. I, however, have another take. This commentary was written in 398. Jerome reported in 393 that he had received a copy of the Gospel of the Hebrews (GH). It would seem to me that anything written before 398 quoting this GH likely does come from a previous source. But I suspect that in preparation for his commentary on Matthew, Jerome did translate the GH into Greek *for his own use* in comparing the GH with the Greek text of Matthew, so that he can compare the Matthaei Authenticum with the text received by the church and discuss any differences in the commentary. He doesn't remark that he released or shared his translation anywhere that a quick search has uncovered. He also doesn't say that the translation made it into Latin.

                    Jovial concluded:
                    >> It's pretty much conjecture to assess whether he did anything "in person", but the simple fact is, what does it matter?<<<

                    There's a big difference between "conjecture" and probability. Going on the evidence of what Jerome actually says and reports makes it probable that in acquiring a copy of the GH Jerome acted through intermediaries and so did not have direct, first hand knowledge of the sect.

                    Why does it matter? Hmm, interesting question: but rather than offer a defense of why it matters to try and get as accurate a picture of the historical situation as possible, I must ask why, being on a list such as this, you would think it didn't matter.

                    Larry Swain
                    Independent Scholar

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                  • Larry Swain
                    ... Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century, p 51.  Jerusalem:
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 2, 2010
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                      George wrote, quoting Pritz:

                      >>While Jerome makes no explicit claim to have known the Nazarene sect personally, he does, however, make two other claims which have frequently been called into question: he copied the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GH), "which is read by the Nazarenes," and he translated it into both Greek and Latin. The parameters of this complicated problem and the limitations of any possible solutions have been well laid down by Vielhauer.19 His general conclusions were, first, that Jerome was thinking of only one work when he spoke of GH and its various other designations; that this gospel was to be found in Caesarea and was probably the same as the one used by the Nazarenes; and lastly, that Jerome never translated all the gospel. To Vielhauer’s article we would add some observations and suggestions.

                      Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century, p 51.  Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.<<

                      Thanks George. I appreciate the additional quotation. Minor quibble: I do wonder where the idea that Jerome translated the Gospel of the Hebrews into Latin came from. In response to Jovial's email I did take a look at all the places I could find in Jerome's works where he mentions the GH, and I found the one that Jovial referred us to in the commentary on Matthew chap. 12:13, which says that he translated into Greek. Does Pritz give any additional insight? Anyone else know?

                      Larry Swain
                      Independent Scholar

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                    • George F Somsel
                      Here s another quotation from Pritz Among ancient writers the only Church Father specifically to connect the Nazarene sect to GH is Jerome. This he does in
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 2, 2010
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                        Here's another quotation from Pritz

                         

                        Among ancient writers the only Church Father specifically to connect the Nazarene sect to GH is Jerome. This he does in eight places: de vir. ill. 3; in Matt. 12:13; 23:35; in Is. 40:9–11 (= in Ez. 16:13); prol. 65; in Ez. 18:5–9; and adv. Pelag. III 2. One other passage, in Is. 11:2, mentions a "gospel written in Hebrew which the Nazarenes read"; this we will take to be the same work. The passage in Matt. 12:13 is one of the three which support Epiphanius in calling this gospel by Matthew’s name (also the de vir. ill. and adv. Pelag. passages). In another respect this passage is unique when it says that both Nazarenes and Ebionites use this gospel. Although it is most likely that Jerome is simply making a generalization based on Epiphanius, if there is any factual basis to what he says, it can only support our hypothesis that both sects made use of gospels which were commonly thought to be the same work and which were in fact of the same family.

                         

                        I seem to recall that Pritz stated somewhere that there were some quotations from the GH in Eusebius though I may be wrong.


                         
                        george
                        gfsomsel


                        … search for truth, hear truth,
                        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                        defend the truth till death.


                        - Jan Hus
                        _________



                        From: Larry Swain <theswain@...>
                        To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 11:19:28 AM
                        Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                         

                        George wrote, quoting Pritz:

                        >>While Jerome makes no explicit claim to have known the Nazarene sect personally, he does, however, make two other claims which have frequently been called into question: he copied the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GH), "which is read by the Nazarenes," and he translated it into both Greek and Latin. The parameters of this complicated problem and the limitations of any possible solutions have been well laid down by Vielhauer.19 His general conclusions were, first, that Jerome was thinking of only one work when he spoke of GH and its various other designations; that this gospel was to be found in Caesarea and was probably the same as the one used by the Nazarenes; and lastly, that Jerome never translated all the gospel. To Vielhauer’s article we would add some observations and suggestions.

                        Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century, p 51.  Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.<<

                        Thanks George. I appreciate the additional quotation. Minor quibble: I do wonder where the idea that Jerome translated the Gospel of the Hebrews into Latin came from. In response to Jovial's email I did take a look at all the places I could find in Jerome's works where he mentions the GH, and I found the one that Jovial referred us to in the commentary on Matthew chap. 12:13, which says that he translated into Greek. Does Pritz give any additional insight? Anyone else know?

                        Larry Swain
                        Independent Scholar

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                      • Jack Kilmon
                        Although Eusebius does mention GH by name, it is a moot point whether he actually saw the gospel. [6] 6. He never directly quotes from it, but see the Syriac
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 2, 2010
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                          "Although Eusebius does mention GH by name, it is a moot point whether he actually saw the gospel. [6]"
                           
                          6. He never directly quotes from it, but see the Syriac theophania 4, 12 (GCS 11, 183: cited by K-R, 148, and James, op. cit. p. 2). The HE III 39, 16 references may only ne from Papias.  There is a mention in Klostermann's edition of the theophania (not in Gressmann's GCS edition) of a "gospel in Hebrew letters which has come to us" to eis hmas hkon (James, 3; H-S GN 18; PG 24, 685f), Jerome indicates that GH was to be found in the Caesarea library (de vir. ill. 3) where Eusebius would certainly have seen it.  Some have argued, however, that has Eusebius been in possession of such a treasure he would have said so.
                           
                          Pritz, R. A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity. Ch 6 "The Gospel According to the Hebrews" p. 84.
                           
                           
                          Jack
                           
                          Jack Kilmon

                          Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 2:18 PM
                          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                          Here's another quotation from Pritz

                           

                          Among ancient writers the only Church Father specifically to connect the Nazarene sect to GH is Jerome. This he does in eight places: de vir. ill. 3; in Matt. 12:13; 23:35; in Is. 40:9–11 (= in Ez. 16:13); prol. 65; in Ez. 18:5–9; and adv. Pelag. III 2. One other passage, in Is. 11:2, mentions a "gospel written in Hebrew which the Nazarenes read"; this we will take to be the same work. The passage in Matt. 12:13 is one of the three which support Epiphanius in calling this gospel by Matthew’s name (also the de vir. ill. and adv. Pelag. passages). In another respect this passage is unique when it says that both Nazarenes and Ebionites use this gospel. Although it is most likely that Jerome is simply making a generalization based on Epiphanius, if there is any factual basis to what he says, it can only support our hypothesis that both sects made use of gospels which were commonly thought to be the same work and which were in fact of the same family.

                           

                          I seem to recall that Pritz stated somewhere that there were some quotations from the GH in Eusebius though I may be wrong.


                           
                          george
                          gfsomsel


                          … search for truth, hear truth,
                          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          defend the truth till death.


                          - Jan Hus
                          _________



                          From: Larry Swain <theswain@...>
                          To: textualcriticism@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 11:19:28 AM
                          Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                           

                          George wrote, quoting Pritz:

                          >>While Jerome makes no explicit claim to have known the Nazarene sect personally, he does, however, make two other claims which have frequently been called into question: he copied the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GH), "which is read by the Nazarenes," and he translated it into both Greek and Latin. The parameters of this complicated problem and the limitations of any possible solutions have been well laid down by Vielhauer.19 His general conclusions were, first, that Jerome was thinking of only one work when he spoke of GH and its various other designations; that this gospel was to be found in Caesarea and was probably the same as the one used by the Nazarenes; and lastly, that Jerome never translated all the gospel. To Vielhauer’s article we would add some observations and suggestions.

                          Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century, p 51.  Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.<<

                          Thanks George. I appreciate the additional quotation. Minor quibble: I do wonder where the idea that Jerome translated the Gospel of the Hebrews into Latin came from. In response to Jovial's email I did take a look at all the places I could find in Jerome's works where he mentions the GH, and I found the one that Jovial referred us to in the commentary on Matthew chap. 12:13, which says that he translated into Greek. Does Pritz give any additional insight? Anyone else know?

                          Larry Swain
                          Independent Scholar

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                          Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                          Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera. com

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                        • Jovial
                          Larry said... (((((((((((((((((( Hebrew. Nor is it a far stretch to posit it as Aramaic, and so far as I know, the ancient authors don t differentiate these
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 3, 2010
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                            Larry said...
                            ((((((((((((((((((
                            Hebrew. Nor is it a far stretch to posit it as Aramaic, and so far as I know, the ancient authors don't differentiate these languages yet...perhaps by the time of Jerome, but not earlier. Nor is it a far stretch to posit it as "in Jewish dialect." Hence, the problem. Nor can be automatically assumed that each author uses the term in the same way, so for Jerome it may be Hebrew, but for Papias, Aramaic etc.
                            ))))))))))))))))))
                             
                            There may have been some ancient authors who didn't know enough about hte difference between Hebrew and Aramaic to tell them apart when they see it.  But I think it's safe to say that Jerome would have known the difference.
                             
                            Larry said....
                            (((((((((((((
                            Sure, except that Jerome when referring to the Nazarenes and Ebionites doesn't mention Rome in connection with them, but rather modern Aleppo and the East....and so far as I recall (always open to correction) none of his contemporaries mention these groups being in Rome either. They could have been there in the fourth century, but unless there's some evidence we're missing, there doesn't seem to be much support for maintaining that Jerome encountered them there.
                            )))))))))))))
                             
                            There's almost always SOME small representation of almost any belief system nearly everywhere in the world.  However, the Nazarenes in the East or Israeli area would have been of greater linguistic value since their knowledge of Hebrew would have likely been better due to more use of it in Israel or ease of learning it as a second language in Aramaic speaking parts of the world. 

                            (((((((((
                            In Evangelio quae utuntur Nazareni et Ebionitae quod nuper in Graecam de Hebraeo sermone transtulimus et quod vocatur a plerisque Matthaei authenticum.....

                            I. E. he does say he translated it into GREEK. ....He also doesn't say that the translation made it into Latin.
                            ))))))))))))
                             
                            In chapter 2 of LIVES OF ILLUSTRIOUS MEN", Jerome said he translated it into BOTH Greek and Latin.  In order to use it for comparative purposes, I would think it would be difficult unless one wrote out each version side-by-side similar to the Hexapla or something.  Of course, in order for him to have translated it from Hebrew into Greek and Latin, he would have had to have had his own personal copy of it.  Your theory about translating for comparing might explain why no copy has survived.  But to me, I'd rather compare the Hebrew directly with what I'm comparing it to.  But maybe he did see some point in it.
                             
                             
                            (((((((((((((((
                            Why does it matter? Hmm, interesting question: but rather than offer a defense of why it matters to try and get as accurate a picture of the historical situation as possible, I must ask why, being on a list such as this, you would think it didn't matter.
                            ))))))))))))))
                             
                            I didn't say it COULDN'T matter, I was just interested in hearing what issue you saw it relevant towards.   There's no real solid evidence that he either did or did not perform those errands personally.   I see nothing he said that would draw a conclusion one way or another.  But I'm just wondering , since you've raised the issue, if there's a conclusion you've drawn for which that issue has some input towards.
                             
                            Joe
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                          • Jovial
                            Yes, there are places where Jerome quotes directly from GH. He states in comparing the Greek to the Hebrew of Matthew 6:11 that in GH, it says machar ,
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 3, 2010
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                              Yes, there are places where Jerome quotes directly from GH.   He states in comparing the Greek to the Hebrew of Matthew 6:11 that in GH, it says "machar", which is Hebrew for tomorrow, but is not Aramaic.  He transliterates the word into Latin letters.  So obviously, his copy of GH had Matthew 6:11 in Hebrew, not in Aramaic.  He does the same in his commenting on Matt 21:9, saying this...
                               
                                 "Finally Matthew, who wrote the Gospel in the Hebrew language,
                                 put it the following way, "Osianna barrama," which means
                                 "Hosanna in the highest." (Letter 20.5)
                               
                              "Hoshianu" has been transliterated into Greek but "barama" hasn't.  Those are just two places I can think of from the top of my head.  There's also places where he quotes from it in ways that don't preserve the original words from the text, but rather translates instead, but he does quote from it directly.
                               
                              Even without quoting exactly from it, there's also other places where Jerome makes arguments for a Hebrew origin to Matthew in which he obviously does NOT mean "Aramaic" or simply some Jewish version.  Another point that Jerome uses to try and prove that Matthew was written in Hebrew is he cites mention of the word "nazwraioV" in Matt 2:23 in chapter 3 of Lives of Illustrious Men.  Of course "נצר" is Hebrew for "branch", but it is not Aramaic, so his logic only works for Hebrew, but does not work for Aramaic or for that matter, any other language.  Jerome is alluding to the fact that the writer is appealing to one's understanding of Isa 11:1, where the word "נצר" is used.
                               
                              My personal theory is that the "Gospel According to the Hebrews" may have had both Hebrew and Aramaic parts, or it may have had a Hebrew Mattew and other Aramaic writings.  For example, the "Prayer of James" may have been part of the canon referred to by the term "Gospel According to the Hebrews".  The "Prayer of James"  is cited as a work accepted by Nazarenes.   There may have been other works included in what was called "GH" we don't know about.  At least some of these may have been in Aramaic.  Take a good look at how Jerome words what he says in Lives...chapter 2 and I wonder if the "Prayer of James" wasn't published along with GH as part of the same work.  In fact I wonder if the "Acts of the Apostles" was part of GH , or GH was part of "Acts of the Apostles" or what.  I wish we had a copy of it.
                               
                               
                               
                              Joe
                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 3:11 PM
                              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                               

                              "Although Eusebius does mention GH by name, it is a moot point whether he actually saw the gospel. [6]"
                               
                              6. He never directly quotes from it, but see the Syriac theophania 4, 12 (GCS 11, 183: cited by K-R, 148, and James, op. cit. p. 2). The HE III 39, 16 references may only ne from Papias.  There is a mention in Klostermann' s edition of the theophania (not in Gressmann's GCS edition) of a "gospel in Hebrew letters which has come to us" to eis hmas hkon (James, 3; H-S GN 18; PG 24, 685f), Jerome indicates that GH was to be found in the Caesarea library (de vir. ill. 3) where Eusebius would certainly have seen it.  Some have argued, however, that has Eusebius been in possession of such a treasure he would have said so.
                               
                              Pritz, R. A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity. Ch 6 "The Gospel According to the Hebrews" p. 84.
                               
                               
                              Jack
                               
                              Jack Kilmon

                              Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 2:18 PM
                              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                              Here's another quotation from Pritz

                               

                              Among ancient writers the only Church Father specifically to connect the Nazarene sect to GH is Jerome. This he does in eight places: de vir. ill. 3; in Matt. 12:13; 23:35; in Is. 40:9–11 (= in Ez. 16:13); prol. 65; in Ez. 18:5–9; and adv. Pelag. III 2. One other passage, in Is. 11:2, mentions a "gospel written in Hebrew which the Nazarenes read"; this we will take to be the same work. The passage in Matt. 12:13 is one of the three which support Epiphanius in calling this gospel by Matthew’s name (also the de vir. ill. and adv. Pelag. passages). In another respect this passage is unique when it says that both Nazarenes and Ebionites use this gospel. Although it is most likely that Jerome is simply making a generalization based on Epiphanius, if there is any factual basis to what he says, it can only support our hypothesis that both sects made use of gospels which were commonly thought to be the same work and which were in fact of the same family.

                               

                              I seem to recall that Pritz stated somewhere that there were some quotations from the GH in Eusebius though I may be wrong.


                               
                              george
                              gfsomsel


                              … search for truth, hear truth,
                              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              defend the truth till death.


                              - Jan Hus
                              _________



                              From: Larry Swain <theswain@operamail. com>
                              To: textualcriticism@ yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Fri, April 2, 2010 11:19:28 AM
                              Subject: Re: [textualcriticism] New Posting of Chicago Manuscripts at CSNTM

                               

                              George wrote, quoting Pritz:

                              >>While Jerome makes no explicit claim to have known the Nazarene sect personally, he does, however, make two other claims which have frequently been called into question: he copied the Gospel according to the Hebrews (GH), "which is read by the Nazarenes," and he translated it into both Greek and Latin. The parameters of this complicated problem and the limitations of any possible solutions have been well laid down by Vielhauer.19 His general conclusions were, first, that Jerome was thinking of only one work when he spoke of GH and its various other designations; that this gospel was to be found in Caesarea and was probably the same as the one used by the Nazarenes; and lastly, that Jerome never translated all the gospel. To Vielhauer’s article we would add some observations and suggestions.

                              Pritz, Ray A. Nazarene Jewish Christianity : From the End of the New Testament Period Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century, p 51.  Jerusalem: The Magnes Press, 1992.<<

                              Thanks George. I appreciate the additional quotation. Minor quibble: I do wonder where the idea that Jerome translated the Gospel of the Hebrews into Latin came from. In response to Jovial's email I did take a look at all the places I could find in Jerome's works where he mentions the GH, and I found the one that Jovial referred us to in the commentary on Matthew chap. 12:13, which says that he translated into Greek. Does Pritz give any additional insight? Anyone else know?

                              Larry Swain
                              Independent Scholar

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                            • Larry Swain
                              Forgive the long delay in response. Real life has intervened, but I thought this an interesting and important enough topic not to just let go and die: Larry
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 30, 2010
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                                Forgive the long delay in response. Real life has intervened, but I thought this an interesting and important enough topic not to just let go and die:



                                Larry said...
                                ((((((((((((((((((
                                Hebrew. Nor is it a far stretch to posit it as Aramaic, and so far
                                as I know, the ancient authors don't differentiate these languages
                                yet...perhaps by the time of Jerome, but not earlier. Nor is it a
                                far stretch to posit it as "in Jewish dialect." Hence, the problem.
                                Nor can be automatically assumed that each author uses the term in
                                the same way, so for Jerome it may be Hebrew, but for Papias,
                                Aramaic etc.
                                ))))))))))))))))))

                                Jovial said: 
                                >>> There may have been some ancient authors who didn't know enough
                                >>> about hte difference between Hebrew and Aramaic to tell them
                                >>> apart when they see it.  But I think it's safe to say that
                                >>> Jerome would have known the difference.<<

                                Maybe, and he may in some contexts simply be reporting tradition.
                                More importantly, the message of yours to which I was responding
                                claimed that we could assume that IOUDAIKW indicated Hebrew, even
                                in mss. We simply can not make that assumption, but have to assess
                                each case as it is encountered.
                                 
                                Larry said....
                                (((((((((((((
                                Sure, except that Jerome when referring to the Nazarenes and
                                Ebionites doesn't mention Rome in connection with them, but rather
                                modern Aleppo and the East....and so far as I recall (always open
                                to correction) none of his contemporaries mention these groups
                                being in Rome either. They could have been there in the fourth
                                century, but unless there's some evidence we're missing, there
                                doesn't seem to be much support for maintaining that Jerome
                                encountered them there.
                                )))))))))))))

                                Joe replies:
                                >> There's almost always SOME small representation of almost any
                                belief system nearly everywhere in the world.<<

                                Sure, but that's like assuming that every citizen of the US knows
                                something and has contact with Shinto priests.

                                (((((((((
                                In Evangelio quae utuntur Nazareni et Ebionitae quod nuper in
                                Graecam de Hebraeo sermone transtulimus et quod vocatur a plerisque
                                Matthaei authenticum.....

                                I. E. he does say he translated it into GREEK. ....He also doesn't
                                say that the translation made it into Latin.
                                ))))))))))))
                                 
                                Joe continues:
                                >> In chapter 2 of LIVES OF ILLUSTRIOUS MEN", Jerome said he
                                translated it into BOTH Greek and Latin.<


                                Yes, but of course that is the reference that began this discussion
                                and is problematic. So now we've come full circle.

                                Joe continues:
                                >>   In order to use it for comparaetive purposes, I would think it would be difficult unless ne wrote out each version side-by-side similar to the Hexapla or something.  Of course, in order for him to have translated it from Hebrew into Greek and Latin, he would have had to have had his own personal copy of it.  Your theory about translating for comparing might explain why no copy has survived.  But to me, I'd rather compare the Hebrew directly with what I'm comparing it to.  But maybe he did see some point in it.<<
                                 
                                How do you know he didn't? Origen, an influence on Jerome, for
                                example created the Hexapla. And he needn't have a personal
                                copy....but simply go to the library at Caesarea...which he seems
                                to have done. As for your last point, do remember that where
                                Hebrew names and words typically appear in fourth and fifth century
                                Greek and Latin Christian writers, the Hebrew appears in
                                transliteration at best, and usually Graecized or Latinized. Even
                                the Hexapla had the Hebrew in Greek letters to compare to the LXX
                                etc. I suggest that Jerome probably had a similar working method,
                                if we assume that Hebrew Matthew was really in Hebrew: a copy of
                                the Hebrew, a transliteration, his translation, comparison to Greek
                                Matthew.

                                Larry Swain

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